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Posit: Female equality has a long way to go in Buddhism
Comments
Unfortunately people are "kinda" vilifying people like myself who come from a different background and see things through different colored lenses. But we all see things through different colored lenses. For my part, I don't see where I've insulted anyone, but I realize that people often take offense where none is intended.
NOBODY sees things objectively, save in mathematics and to a large degree in a lot of sciences. Monks are no exception, either. To hear some women here hear "Temptress" where something closer to "complication" is meant IS a bit of surprise to me, frankly. I guess I must just be an evil person, or at least a person with poisoned mind??? NOPE!
As a person interested in politics, I see the most bizarre concatenations of ideas present in people (especially on the Right), that I am stupefied. But I realize, as in tastes, there's simply no accounting for what people think.
I do register my surprise at the emotional baggage, albeit light, being brought into this forum —a forum which should be about engaging with ideas and trying to understand them, rather than dismissing them as jaded ideas due to the way things strike one's ears. Maybe a little humility about one's hearing acumen might be in store?
I think it's a fair statement to make that most people at many times in their lives can only put their thinking down in rather awkward terms, anyhow. Jump on their awkward expressions and then... communication stops.
I've pretty much finished with what I said above in my first post: except that
I cannot predict the future or be responsible for actions not my own in present time. And though I think the practical wisdom that women are so very rich in would immensely benefit the Buddhist community if each genuine teacher, regardless of gender, would not be hindered by any system, I cannot say that I believe 50/50 parity is a justice issue, nor should ever be confused with human rights.
BUT people, even those in their 90s, do continue to develop throughout life. Bring me along further with kindness, not with spitting bitter tastes from your mouths.
The reason I haven't spoken out yet...although the very topic and original post ought to give you an idea of where I'm coming from...is that I wanted to let the ensuing posts tell the story. And they have.
I posted this topic after an online conversation with a friend.
Logically, about 50% of world Buddhists are women. I would guess that -- worldwide -- women in any form of leadership role in Buddhist temples and organizations make up less than 1-2% of Buddhist leadership. Would we accept that in any other non-religious field?
Our forum is overwhelmingly male oriented. Why? Do women not feel on an equal footing here?
I have probably visited 2,000 or more Buddhist temples in Thailand, not to mention Burma, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia. Number of women I have seen in those temples in any form of leadership role = 0. Number of mae chee (Buddhist nuns) I have seen in those temples = perhaps 25.
We can rant and rave on this forum about justice for gay people, people with mental health issues, Bradley Manning, and just about any other group of people who are unequal...but rarely is the issue about Buddhist women being in a subservient role mentioned. What is the old saying about cleaning one's own house first?
As for the rest, I I think you're exaggerating just a bit. We talk about these kinds of issues fairly often.
Yes to that paradigm, betaboy: the hegemony of cultural attitudes and norms and the mentalities imbued therein. Every institution, every workplace, and every tribe has a kind of mentality. And these cannot change overnight.
Vinlyn, I still don't understand the contempt people feel for the idea of male monasteries being closed to women. I believe that is quite another issue. After all, in the United States there are plenty of places for women only where men are not allowed, but it is only in sports where women are barred from men's teams. Women reporters are allowed into the locker rooms, though. And these places I've just alluded to are secular establishments, not cloisters. I just don't get this and I just no longer care how much people on NewBuddhist hate me for trying to understand things.
For the record....I am here everyday, usually interacting with
you guys/men....and I don't see it as a problem. When something
ruffles my feathers...afa....being sexist goes...I speak my mind, and
then we all move on, haha. Depends on if I feel like going there...haha.
Am I outnumbered? Yes.
For a bucket load of reasons.
Whatever. I'm over it.
No MAJOR girlie pic shows......talk is never raunchy.....jokes
don't seem to cross the line...
Everyone is pretty respectful of me here...
Buddhism is the main topic.....cultural/time/society material
cannot be helped... ....sad, I know. .
Where are all these places where women bar men? You mean like a womens club? There are also mens clubs. But a small social group -- assuming that is what you are talking about -- is kind of irrelevant, as compared to an international religion.
I don't hate you in the least.
An interesting related article. And there are MANY you can Google.
Also try: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/qanda-women.pdf
Gee whiz! That's so sweet!
I don't understand you in the least very often, though, I must say, Vinlyn.
I also must say that most of the people who know me find me very transparent and uncomplicated. "Simple" is one common description. "Adult Child" another. But mostly the Southern "You won't do!"
Can we get the NB research dept on that, please? .......Thanks :vimp:
I mean since you know some women being buddhists, then that must be empirical evidence that the leadership is 50/50.
The past depth and breadth are gone and even the mysticism of the hymns is being edited out in places.
Just saying what I see happening. But everyone has his or her perspective.
Metta
It might be another causality.
In the future people may well alter their gender as easily as gender x
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24767225
Kids may reorient before deciding which way to be. Some may eventually decide to be reassigned to a new species. Perhaps a dolphin.
The question is are dolphins capable of being Buddhas?
'What's that Flipper? Can you jump through the hoop for all the boys and girls?'
:crazy:
Separating the sexes seems to happen in most religions, and it's generally accepted as a good thing to avoid the distraction of sexuality. But no one has yet convinced me there is anything innately wrong with sex. Why is celibacy so prized among monastics? Surely it is wrong to view the world in terms of temptations that must be avoided at all costs?
Well, just for the record, a short time ago, I was involved in a somewhat 'heated' discussion, on this forum, mainly with just one or two others (males).
Now, believe me, I have moved on, and I'm not holding a grudge; as a matter of fact, I can't even remember the topic we were discussing- really, it wasn't that long ago, but I have no interest in looking it up...
Anyway, instead of angrily, heatedly, or passionately disagreeing with my *opinion* about something, (whatever it was), I was instead treated to several snide and insulting comments about it being "that time of the month" or that perhaps I was experiencing "women's issues" or words to that effect; and a couple of other stereotypical female put downs....
My opinion wasn't being countered with another explanation or opinion - my gender was being called into question as "irrational" or unstable. That was not only uncalled for, but simply not nice, at all.
The way I was spoken to was childish and disrespectful, AND, it was gender related, not fact related.
I admit, I reacted badly. I should have just let it go- but maybe it was because I was recovering -right at that very time- from major surgery, (a hysterectomy; you know, "lady problems") and not feeling well, I was a bit more sensitive than I usually would be.
So without thinking, I lowered myself to their level and spat back words that got me in trouble here... and reprimanded.
The other person? No warning, no problem; and not one person here, male or female stepped up and said "hey now, that wasn't very nice" to the person insulting one of the very few women who still participate on this forum.
::: shrugs::: Like I said, I'm over it. But I won't pretend it didn't happen (to me). And IF or when it happens again, I may handle it better, but I will not ignore it.
As for the OP;
I went to a neighborhood catholic school- my mother as well as my aunts were very involved with the church that ran the catholic school. My mother sang in the choir, and she and my aunts volunteered for many programs and events run by the school and the church.
I knew my way around the church, the rectory's receiving rooms, and I also became very familiar with the nun's convent on the same block as the church, rectory and school. Why? Because I was often sent to the convent as punishment for something I'd done in class, or for giggling in church, or whatever.
Nuns in the catholic church- here we have women who do it ALL. They cook and clean and do laundry for the priests in the rectory. They act as secretaries to the priests. They clean the church. They teach school. (this was back when 95% of the teachers in any catholic school were nuns; the other 5% were priests. Almost no lay people.) They run fairs and festivals, they do community services for people like charity work, and feeding the poor. Seriously, they did it all.
The nuns were and still are to this day (at least what's left of them) the sturdy backbone of their church and community.
Sure, they are respected. Sure, they are appreciated (or at least we hope so). Sure, they are treated a little more "special" than regular women who may also be a member or work in some capacity within the church.... But they can never serve mass, be ordained, be bishops or cardinals, have a say or vote in their/the Church's policies or programs.
The bottom line is- Nuns always, a.l.w.a.y.s. follow directions and instructions from priests. Period. So, being respected, appreciated and/or treated a little more 'special' doesn't add up to being treated equally. Never did, and never will.
Some of you pointed your fingers at the Catholic church (and other sects / religions) as a way of excusing or explaining the inequality between male and female within Buddhism.
Saying "Well, they do it too!" doesn't cut it.
But I never had to worry about my safety if I decided to make a midnight munchie run. Try to imagine a world where the men have to get women to escort them so the men won't get attacked. Suddenly it doesn't seem so normal, does it? That sort of day in-day out disparity has to eat at someone.
I know it's the way it's always been and still is around the world and differing only in degree. I hate that for a huge population women are treated like property. I know that religion, including Buddhism, reflects cultural norms and values and seeks to justify this problem.
What I don't know is what to do about it, beyond what anyone can do on a personal level.
I often feel the same way. Then I remember:
Be The Change You Want To See In The World
It all starts on a 'personal level'. Speak up, speak out, step up, and step between those doing harm and the ones being harmed... every chance you get.
It's not easy to do, we all turn away at times, wishing to not see, not get involved; exhausted perhaps (?) from the past efforts and still endless situations we see before us.
Surely you meant that the problem lies with me or in me. That would make more sense.
But I feel more like a reporter here than a gainsayer.
You must be fool to think that what I wrote was different than saying that the problem is in you. You are just trying to use complicated sentences and condescending language to try to throw away the focus from my argument. It seemed to be quite clear to everyone else that I meant that you had a problem or are a problem when you can't deal with women taking greater part in a religion. I am not thrown off by your expertise in greek language, nor am I impressed.
BTW...
I think we need a *BOOM!!* button.
What do you think, @Vastmind? I'll bet @JoyfulGirl would like it too!
I stand against arbitrary obstacles excluding people from paths that they are called to, gender being one of them. Mere demographic information that I do neither subscribe to nor contribute to, that stuff is. I know I opened myself up to this line of criticism by removing the part I had struck out from from discussion in an earlier post, in response to other things. I just could not omit that part in my quote. In afterthought I realize that I opened a can of worms, but I assure you that problem is not in me or of me or by me. I'm simply the unwelcome messenger.
I come from another world. That's my excuse for often being so obtuse.
These prejudices like all others just illustrate the limitations that all of us bring to a meditation practice and should be approached like any other arising phenomena.
Either you empower that prejudice with your conditioned behavior or you don't.
Excusing ignorance is just what differentiates a religion from a practice.
In a panel led by Nevada GOP Chairman Tom Taber, conservative publisher Len Semas questioned the role of women in the workplace, according to Ralston Reports.
Semas said that he felt that women leaving the role of nurturer may have attributed to societal problems like attention deficit disorder.
"The reality is there is a special role that women take on, biologically, as the bearers of children and the nurturers of children," Semas said Thursday morning, as quoted by Ralston. "I don't know that we haven't created problems in society by ignoring that important role. ADD and various learning disabilities, hyperactive kids, kids building bombs in their garage."
Semas argued that women have left the home in the past few decades at about the same time that some of these issues started cropping up.
Here is what has to drive women to distraction. The GOP is responsible for political policies and laws that depressed wages and drove up the cost of living in the past few decades to where both parents have to work, in order to pay the bills. Now they complain it's the woman's fault that children are having problems because mothers should stay in the home raising the kids like nature intended. No thought about women maybe wanting more out of life than changing diapers and cooking meals for the family. Yep, society sure has a ways to go. And we're not nearly as male orientated a society as Japan and other Eastern cultures where Buddhism is practiced.
On the one hand, fighting against patriarchy and bourgeois social relations that seek to constrain and subjugate femininity is just commonsense to me, and I understand why people get heated when others seem to support the status quo.
On the other, I understand how distorted/unequal gender norms is a broader symptom of a society that's practiced patriarchy for centuries, and that patriarchal ideology has become so ingrained into our collective psyche that many men (and even many women) are conditioned to view the world in ways that are sexist and objectify women, so I try to have patience with those who either overtly support sexist views or who simply fail to realize their existence, whether in themselves or society in general (not that I always succeed).
In my opinion, the prevalence of male privilege embedded in our patriarchal society, as well as the negative aspects of socially-constructed, male gender norms (what some call 'toxic masculinity'), is definitely something that I think needs to be combated (as with classism, racism, homophobia, and a host of other 'isms'). The real question is how.
I think a combination of radical action and incremental, progressive change is the key; and in the case of women in Buddhism, I applaud the radical action of ordaining women by the monks in Sri Lankan as well as the dedication of women who have practiced, studied, and taken on leadership roles.
And trust me, while I know there is a fine line between blatant mysoginism and somewhat 'ignorant' opinion, I'd be down on it like a ton of bricks in an instant.
If you want 'sexist', I could nominate one specific forum which would have you screaming out in anger by your third post....One I no longer subscribe to, and refuse to post in, read or even recommend, any further.
Until; you've tried them all, don't disparage.
Indiscriminately.
By the sound of it, so do you.
Your points are valid, but keep your temper in check, and abstain from personal remarks.
They are neither warranted, nor welcome.
if you cannot construct a valid discussion without disparaging members who offer different viewpoints, then that shows a flaw in your attitude, and you ARE the problem.
OK?
I don't intend to extend or discuss the matter in public, but let's just say you are mistaken.
I agree that I could have presented my views less aggressive. But I don't agree with the point that some forums are more sexist so the "little" sexism that goes on here is okay.
I'll take it private.
(No first 'r' in federica. I merely say that, because putting the '@' sign in front of names alerts that named member to a response. But the name has to be spot-on. If not, the direct response risks being missed altogether, by the intended recipient. )