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Should i stop doing sitting meditation? please suggest.
misecmisc1
I am a HinduIndia Veteran
hi all,
i have been doing sitting meditation for the last 2 years nearly on an almost daily basis for nearly 1 hour sitting based on alarm set on clock in morning - with few exceptions of not able to sit for meditation for may be few days, when in morning i may be travelling. what i do is - sit in cross-legged fashion (initially i was sitting in full lotus position, but when pain started arising near my legs' knee area, then i stopped sitting in full lotus position, so for the past few months i have been sitting in normal cross-legged position) - with eyes closed - initially started with anapanasati, then moved to zazen(just sitting method), then for the last few weeks came back to anapanasati method.
my meditation is going nowhere. now therevada point of view says the path goes to awakening, but zen point of view says it comes down to moment-by-moment practice and there is no going anywhere, as everything is always in here and now - also the practice and enlightenment are same as dogen taught - practice is enlightenment and enlightenment is practice, so he used one word for it 'practice-enlightenment'. also i understand that meditation is done not to achieve anything, but to let go of everything, which we think we have.
but on practical ground reality, what happens in my meditation is i sit as above and then try to watch my breath, after few seconds, thought arises, mind gets entangled and then suddenly i remember i have to observe breath, then observe that my body position has moved from back straight and chest slightly out - to - head getting dropped, back bending again. then i change my posture back to back straight and again start to observe my breath and again thoughts arise and this process goes on.
my sitting meditation has become a daily routine for me - has anything changed for me since i started meditation nearly 2 years back till now, honestly speaking i do not know if anything has changed in me. moreover the way my meditation is progressing, it seems like even if i continue for many lifetimes in this way, still there will be no insight arising in my meditation.
there is no buddhist monastry nearby, so there is no buddhist monk to whom i can go and ask any meditation question - moreover, i am a hindu and i do not have even time to go looking for a monastry to search a monk.
so what do you all suggest - should i stop doing sitting meditation? please suggest. thanks in advance.
i have been doing sitting meditation for the last 2 years nearly on an almost daily basis for nearly 1 hour sitting based on alarm set on clock in morning - with few exceptions of not able to sit for meditation for may be few days, when in morning i may be travelling. what i do is - sit in cross-legged fashion (initially i was sitting in full lotus position, but when pain started arising near my legs' knee area, then i stopped sitting in full lotus position, so for the past few months i have been sitting in normal cross-legged position) - with eyes closed - initially started with anapanasati, then moved to zazen(just sitting method), then for the last few weeks came back to anapanasati method.
my meditation is going nowhere. now therevada point of view says the path goes to awakening, but zen point of view says it comes down to moment-by-moment practice and there is no going anywhere, as everything is always in here and now - also the practice and enlightenment are same as dogen taught - practice is enlightenment and enlightenment is practice, so he used one word for it 'practice-enlightenment'. also i understand that meditation is done not to achieve anything, but to let go of everything, which we think we have.
but on practical ground reality, what happens in my meditation is i sit as above and then try to watch my breath, after few seconds, thought arises, mind gets entangled and then suddenly i remember i have to observe breath, then observe that my body position has moved from back straight and chest slightly out - to - head getting dropped, back bending again. then i change my posture back to back straight and again start to observe my breath and again thoughts arise and this process goes on.
my sitting meditation has become a daily routine for me - has anything changed for me since i started meditation nearly 2 years back till now, honestly speaking i do not know if anything has changed in me. moreover the way my meditation is progressing, it seems like even if i continue for many lifetimes in this way, still there will be no insight arising in my meditation.
there is no buddhist monastry nearby, so there is no buddhist monk to whom i can go and ask any meditation question - moreover, i am a hindu and i do not have even time to go looking for a monastry to search a monk.
so what do you all suggest - should i stop doing sitting meditation? please suggest. thanks in advance.
0
Comments
If you decide to continue, get some personal instruction. There may not be a monastery near you, but the must be a practice center in the area.
As to whether your practice has been effective or you should abandon it, it depends a great deal on what you want to get out of it. Get clear about why you're committed to this practice -- the real motive, because this "meditation is not done to achieve anything" idea is obviously strictly theoretical for you at the moment. (And I don't mean that as any kind criticism. It's an incoherent and inapplicable idea to me, too.) Once you're clear about that, we may be able to give you some suggestions about directions to take your practice. One possibility which stands out at the moment is that you're doing basically shamatha with the anapanasati, and basically vipassana with the Zen. There are other shamatha and vipassana practices which might be more appropriate, depending on where you are and what you want.
1. Is there a Buddhist monastery where you could arrange to go on a retreat?
2. Have you explored Hindu approaches to meditation practice?
I think that there are a lot of Buddhists out there who don't know it. By that I mean that Buddhism is largely a way of viewing and handling oneself, the world and the relationship between the two. For me, "Buddhism" is not taking yourself seriously, being helpful to others and paying attention to what my actual situation is right here and right now (as opposed to past, future or possibilities). Some people who don't call themselves "Buddhist" actually follow that way. There must be something in your personality that gravitates towards it but you aren't finding any friendly support.
What might help you is exposing yourself to more people through whatever means are available to you, be that volunteering, hobby, taking classes or whatever. That way you may find those who will nourish your spiritual quest, whatever their relationship to "Buddhism" is. And be open to what form that quest will take.
Last night I did puja/gongyo instead of meditation. Same cushion, different focus. It fits in with some reading I've done of people reacting against meditation-without-much-thinking, which for me is sort of tedious and hard to do on some days (and on other days it's just what the doctor ordered)
Here is a shingon one
http://shingonjitemple.org/wp-content/uploads/The-Laypersons-service-order-11.pdf
Zen, Nichiren, Tibetan and Therevada styles are fairly easy to find (sometimes called daily service, gongyo, puja, lay practice, etc).
All of the above are generally "marketed" to lay followers who may or may not have instruction.
If you are interested instead in the path of liberation, read this wikipedia article (the topic huge and I can't summarize here)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_Paths_to_liberation
That describes systems of usually analytic meditation long and complex enough that you'll either need to read a bunch of books or find a teacher. I have no idea if there are similar systems in Hinduism, but I imagine Buddhist practices and Hindu practices can be done together without too much conflict-- again, they have similar points.
I can't tell you what direction to take unless you can tell me where you want to go. From what I can hear in your post, the meditation is doing exactly what it's designed to do. You're sitting quietly, doing nothing but being mindful for while each day. When you think about it, that's a prety mind-numbingly boring thing to be doing.
The mind insists on measuring all our efforts by some yardstick we call "progress". We have to meet goals, or score points, or get faster or further or in some way better than we were the day before. In meditation, our minds want us to sit longer, to sit more often, to reach that next level of jhana. Then when we don't meet these goals, our frustration multiplies. If we do meet them, our brief elation gives way to wanting to reach that next level. And so it goes.
If you're bored with sitting meditation (and probably that's what it boils down to, honestly. One hour a day for two years?) then do something else that requires being mindful once in a while. Or not. Sounds like whatever you decide to do, you're going to do it for as long and hard as you can.
What we see in this thread speaks volumes for having a teacher for practice.
@misecmisc1
Meditation advise over the net is always "buyer beware. This particular advise is also heavily Zen influenced, which at this time may not be the practice you are choosing to do.
But if you decide to get back up on that zen horse down the line...
You are writing about a strong identification with your arising thoughts in meditation.
That describes a concentration that maybe a bit too selectively narrow to allow your awareness to also include your form, sensations, activities, consciousness as well as what you see, hear, smell & taste while sitting.
Meditation is about allowing all phenomena to freely come and go instead of remaining enslaved to how our identities control that data input and our relationship to it.
If "thoughts" are the Achilles heel of your meditative practice then you should try deliberately widening your awareness to include the sense gates that your conditioning is now selectively hindering.
This will allow a wider meditation foundation to be established that will be much less vulnerable to the constant thought hijacking that you describe. Endless thoughts will
still arrive and go but they will no longer have the same credence as the only show in town to be in.
Of course, if you just stick to a meditation practice, this will all eventually unfold on it's own.
"The benefits of walking meditation" : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/silananda/bl137.html
The Buddha didn't teach " just sit there"... In the four frames of reference, in talking about being aware and alert of the body as body, he speaks of standing, walking, sitting, lying down and much more.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html
"Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert.
"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.
Because walking meditation is either totally ignored, or treated as a red heading bastard step child(go do walking when it hurts too much to sit anymore!), my crusade for walking meditation legitimacy will continue. What do you think " going forward and returning" means in the above section
so change it up a little bit! In your posture AND your practice, do you do metta meditation?
Whatever you choose is fine. Meditation is always here for you. For the people that meditation has helped, I am sure there are many on this site or elsewhere. Perhaps you started out too seriously, put forth much time and investment, and now feeling like you're not going anywhere with this.
I suggest that you lower your expectations and be at ease when you meditate. It's suppose to peaceful and relaxing once you reach a certain point. I know you can reach that point if you can keep going. What was it that kept you going for two years? Was it something good that you felt, or some kind of curiosity?
One thing that meditation is supposed to do is help develop our mindfulness so that we can abandon our greed, hatred, and delusions. To notice a thought is to be mindful. To abandon a thought is to not attach to the thought. Just let it play itself out. Let it be "in and of itself". We're not "throwing" anything away as far as thoughts go, but we are abandoning them by not attaching to them. We just sit and observe. We do this with all thoughts so that we may come to no thoughts, or a single thought.
If you think you have greed, hate or delusions, meditation can help reduce it. If you feel that you are not greedy, not hateful, and not deluded, perhaps this is where you feel meditation is not working for you. You should still keep going.
Remember one thing.. Pain, irritation, and distress starts at the mind, so solve it in the mind not the body. Be still in mind and body. Do not attach to thoughts. That's all. You will reach a painless peaceful state eventually.
Happy meditation
Nowhere is a great place
to be.
To Be
or Not to Be
Bodhi Bard Dharma
Meditation is not necessary, sometimes it is even harmful. Compare mind to a cyclone - meditation is like trying to deal with the cyclone all alone, with no help. Just an analogy, don't analyze it. Point is, it rarely helps. What helps is knowledge, which is often erroneously translated as mindfulness. So people get the wrong idea that they must just sit down, watch, watch, and watch until they get bored to death. That's not mindfulness, that's madness.
Mindfulness is simply the silent acknowledgement of the truth - the truth about life and death. It has nothing to do with practice, schedule, etc.
secondly, coming to the question which most of you have asked me, which is - what do i want to get out of meditation?
actually i think i am a confused type of person in my daily activities - my memory power is also not very sharp now, as i forget what happened i did just now (not for all activities, but few activities which seem important to me) - may be i am having some mental problem - i usually cross-check after doing somethings which seem important to me. some examples are like suppose i am going out of my house with my family, so i lock the door, then after locking the door with the key, i cross-check to see if the door is locked (this i think is normal), but somehow something in mind says may be i have not checked the door properly, so i cross-check it again the second time and then i get confirmed that the door is locked and then i move out of the house. i do not know if i have this type of habit of cross-checking, then how will i ever proceed in meditation, where things happen in here and now and i cannot cross-check anything - so will i ever know if something happened in my meditation?
the above can be a mental disease, in some form, but i guess i need to be more mindful of the activities, so that i do not have to do this cross-checking type of thing to get things confirmed.
well, i think most of you will now laugh hearing why i started meditation or what is the objective of my meditation or what do i want to get out of my meditation, but the answer is i started meditation to experience what that ultimate reality or liberation actually is. when after theoretical understanding i got the understanding that this liberation thing is actually the cessation of everything, so i got the idea that at least all the defilements inside will have to cease for experiencing ultimate reality or unconditioned or whatever we may call that experience. but i have a lot of defilements of lust, anger, greed, attachment, aversion and ego inside me and currently i have not seen any reduction in these defilements since i started 2 years back. moreover, the stillness of mind is needed for insights to arise and even though i sit for 1 hour, but the ground reality is i think after every 5 minutes my posture drops by my back getting slightly dropped, head dropping, so that after every 5 minutes, i have to realign my posture to back straight and head with cheek slightly tucked in.
i think it is ridiculous for me to have such an objective, as it seems to me to be like a small child who is learning the english alphabets a, b, c for the first time, having an objective of getting a masters degree in english language. i cannot sit in one posture for even 15 mins continuously, so when i cannot even make my body still, then how can i make my mind still. so the way my meditation is going, it seems to me that even if i continue for many lifetimes, i shall not be able to still my mind for any insight to arise, leave the objective which seems totally out of scope.
@misecmisc1
Thoughts only ruffles the mind when one identifies with them. A still might is not thoughtless, just in equinimity with itself. The still mind that you are speaking of is actually a trance state which has nothing to do with Buddhist meditation.
well, frankly speaking i do not go in that direction, where i try to do analysis on micro-level as far as how meditation is approched in hinduism and buddhism. i think there is a common ground, as both religions say that in meditation, only when there is no thought in the mind, so that the mind is completely still, then only after that some insights can emerge - so i take this to be enough that the mind should be made calm for genuine insight to arise.
Made a mistake in the post above and only noticed it after the time for correcting it pasted.
@misecmisc1
Thoughts only ruffles the mind when one identifies with them. A still mind is not thoughtless, just in equinimity with itself. The still mind that you are speaking of is actually a trance state which has nothing to do with Buddhist meditation.
At least the above is my understanding till now from the teachings of therevada tradition thai forest monks like Ajahn Chah, Brahm etc.
if my above understanding from Therevada viewpoint is not correct, then anybody please feel free to rectify my above understanding.
the zen approach of zazen or just sitting differs here as it says to just sit and observe whatever is happening in here and now, without getting involved in it.
metta to you and all sentient beings.
There is a really good book by His Holiness the Dalai Lama called "intermediate stages of meditation" and I would highly recommend you get this book, and take the practices offered into your routine.
In short, I make this recommendation because Buddhism is not simply a way of watching your breathing, it is a multi-faceted, vast philosophy, ethical training, way of living and being.. and in the ultimate sense we can realize and come to recognize our Buddha nature through meditation. Recognition is vital. The methods in this text are superb and I am confident you will find it perfectly suitable for aiding you further in your meditation.
Please continue sitting! But do it more frequently for shorter periods. This is a good way to practice.
Love and metta,
May the truth bloom in your universal heart swiftly and effortlessly
You are asking for help. Then when people who have understanding and ARE meditating offer advice you give them the 'benefit' of your 'understanding'.
Is that correct?
What advice would benefit you? What have I misunderstood?
Next you will be watching paint dry and finding it 'interesting' . . .
Those are essentially insight meditations. However, I would not be concerned that your attention isn't stable enough for that yet. It sounds like you have a perfectly adequate basis in your anapanasati practice. Just remember to retreat to the anapanasati if things get disturbing.
Also, metta practice would probably help a lot with the anxiety. "What's the best thing I can do right now?" is a much more pleasant and productive approach than "Did I just screw up?" (Here's a talk on Goodwill & Heedfulness.)
Next you will be watching paint dry and finding it 'interesting' . . .
Why is that the next step of the practice?
it is in 5 part series and i watched all 5 parts of it. then i started to meditate as is said in the above video. then one day a thought came to me that i read in history subject that buddha attained nirvana, so i thought buddha might have also meditated, so thought of searching about buddha's teachings as it may have information as how buddha meditated - then searched on google for buddha's teachings - then learnt about 4NT, DO, 8FP, 5 aggregates and about anapanasati sutta - then searched on google for either anapanasati sutta or something related to how to meditate as per anapanasati sutta, then one search result came having a thread on this website - then i logged on to this website and after that learnt about therevada, mahayana, zen, tibetian buddhism, thai forest tradition monks like ajahn chah, brahm, thanisaro bhikku, sumedho, amaro etc - watched you tube videos from these monks - then started to do anapanasati meditation - then since my natural breathing pattern is very irregular, so thought of exploring zen - then on this website got information about dogen and hsin hsin ming - searched for dogen's teachings and then read about genjo koan and uji - came to know about zazen (just sitting) method - then moved from anapanasati to zazen, but seemed like it was not helping me much - so few weeks back, i came back to anapanasati meditation, but somehow it seems either i am very confused person, who is not able to analyze if i am making any progress - or i am doing something wrong, due to which my meditation is going no where, so i raised this thread. this is my spiritual journey over the last 2 years till now.
One last thing: be mindful and aware of your objective.
. . . however I feel that is not going to be the path you take . . .
My suggestion would be cut down to 40 mins and do some other techniques for 20 mins, led meditation, yoga, walking med, chanting. Something. Ideally you would keep the hour and add a practice.
Is meditation causing confusion or inability to analyse progress?
How does meditation feel wrong?
When was your meditation ever going anywhere and if so, where was it going?
While you're on a 'spiritual' journey, what happens to the 'other' journeys?
If it doesn't help you, leave it. The Buddha himself said to test it out and prove it to yourself, not to take his word for it. Put meditation to the side for a while and continue on living the Noble Eightfold path. You can start meditating again at a later stage when you feel it will help you.
In metta,
Raven
Actually, he said, and I'll quote Thanissaro Bhikku here, if "These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering" then we should abandon them. It then follows if they are skillfull, not blameworthy, praised by the wise and so on, we should continue.
Now, if you say that that equates to "testing it out and proving it to yourself", then that's awesome. Just the same, the admoniition to the Kalamas says nothing about whether or not it "works for you".
Whatever
Do you?
The Buddha gave very specific instructions for proving the veracity of a teaching or practice. Deciding whether or not it "works" for us isn't one of them. That's all.
Now, I agree that if something isn't working out, that might be a reasonable cause to reject it. However that's not what the Buddha taught.
I'm out. Happy chatting y'all
Or emptiness is from and from emptiness comes . . . goodbye? . . .
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x316ke_the-beatles-hello-goodbye_news
and now back to our favourite picks . . .
:wave:
See any similarities? Even @lobster is revealed, but you have to watch it all!
Mettha
i think may be i am too selfish or self-centered person, that is why i do not feel anything in metta meditation - or may be i am too insensitive to note any sensations in my body while i do metta meditation.
so the question to you all is - when you do metta meditation, do you all feel something inside you while you say the lines of metta meditation, or after those lines are finished, then do you all feel anything inside you? please suggest. thanks in advance.
or
a 'wall' was in your mind?
who told you that 'what you had been staring at was a 'wall'?
couldn't it be a 'pen'? or 'picture'? or 'something else'?
Ponder