How do you decide what is morally right?

followthepath

According to the book What Makes You Not A Buddhist by Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse, the Buddha never set the standard for morality. The author states that whatever enhances the four noble seals is morally right and whatever action takes you away from the four noble seals is morally wrong. Another Buddhist told me the same thing: whatever facilitates your understanding of the four noble seals is morally right.

How do you decide what facilitates your understanding of the four noble truths? I did a lot of thinking about this and I decided that to understand the four noble truths the only thing I need is to be physiologically healthy. You can't ponder Buddhism if you're starving, in other words. Does that mean that anything that leads to physiological health is good and anything that leads away from it is bad? Aren't there a lot of actions that don't facilitate your understanding of the four seals, but don't take you away from the four seals as well? In other words, aren't there a lot of neutral actions?

Should a Buddhist aim to follow the Eightfold path or just live according to the above standard? Is the Eightfold path even a path to morality or does it just lead to the end of suffering?

I'm a new Buddhist and I'd appreciate any input. Thank you.

how

Is your experience with Buddhism from reading
or do you also have a practice?

followthepath

I'm trying to learn how to do breath focused meditation, but so far all I've done is read about Buddhism and practice mindfulness without meditating.

person

Yes there are neutral actions as well. Often but not always they are included when talking about positive and negative actions.

I think overall you've got a fairly good grasp of the concept. In the end there are no hard and fast rules that apply across the board. The crux of it is to grow the Dharma in your heart and mind then your natural reaction will tend to be positive.

In the meantime there are various training rules like the 5 precepts or various teachings about ethical behavior, virtue and non harming. As a beginner in particular take a look into the 5 precepts and see you can't take one or 5 of them.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda04.htm

how

@followthepath

A mindfulness practice may illuminate that what you seek
is not so much of a teaching that can be acquired as
a truth no longer obscured by ones former mindlessness.

genkaku

Morality seems to me to boil down to this: Correct the mistakes ... and take responsibility for the mistakes you can't correct.

BhikkhuJayasara

"With the proper effort, and with time, understanding will unfold by itself, but in all cases, use your own natural wisdom. Only you can do that, so do it! it’s all up to you."
- Ajahn Chah

I follow my gut.. my intuition, my " natural wisdom".. it's never lead me wrong, as opposed to my ego, which has lead me wrong most of the time.

anataman

Read Immanuel Kant's 'critique of pure reason' and 'metaphysics of morals' - when you are right you will know you are right.

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/4280
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/5682/pg5682.html

Metta

karasti

For me, I think morals are inherent, just some people are more clear on them than others (like anything else in life, really). As I've continued to practice both in sitting meditation and the rest of life, it's become much more clear to me what is the right way and what isn't. And when I do something wrong/unskillful, it's an immediate jolt and I know to correct it asap. I don't, anymore, have many times where I don't realize i did wrong hours, days, or longer after it happened. As was said above, when it's right, you just know it. But it's a knowing on a far deeper level than most of us are used to at first. There is a very discernible difference between the "Yes! I GOT IT!" that the ego tends to feed us, surrounded in arrogance and the deeper level of just knowing. Without having to label it or even have an emotional feeling of success or excitement about it. It just is, and that's all there is to it. You know it when it happens but it's hard to put words to it, for me anyhow.

Jason

followthepath said:

According to the book What Makes You Not A Buddhist by Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse, the Buddha never set the standard for morality. The author states that whatever enhances the four noble seals is morally right and whatever action takes you away from the four noble seals is morally wrong. Another Buddhist told me the same thing: whatever facilitates your understanding of the four noble seals is morally right.

How do you decide what facilitates your understanding of the four noble truths? I did a lot of thinking about this and I decided that to understand the four noble truths the only thing I need is to be physiologically healthy. You can't ponder Buddhism if you're starving, in other words. Does that mean that anything that leads to physiological health is good and anything that leads away from it is bad? Aren't there a lot of actions that don't facilitate your understanding of the four seals, but don't take you away from the four seals as well? In other words, aren't there a lot of neutral actions?

Should a Buddhist aim to follow the Eightfold path or just live according to the above standard? Is the Eightfold path even a path to morality or does it just lead to the end of suffering?

I'm a new Buddhist and I'd appreciate any input. Thank you.

That's an interesting point of view, although it's not quite my understanding of Buddhist ethics and precepts as per the Pali Canon. Personally, I think the eightfold path is a moral path that helps lead, gradually, to an understanding of the four noble truth (as well as the four noble seals), and hence to the end of suffering. There may be other 'paths,' but the eightfold path is the safest, in my opinion.

DairyLama

followthepath said:

I'm trying to learn how to do breath focused meditation, but so far all I've done is read about Buddhism and practice mindfulness without meditating.

Is there a local Buddhist group or centre that you could visit?

Cinorjer

Many of us have to go it alone, and wrestle with the big questions without the benefit of a teacher. In regards to morality, we have the Precepts, but that's not hardly the same as a list of 10 Commandments or "The following are abominations before God" or some such. A case can be made like @Jason says that the 8-fold path is a description of a moral life, and there are lots of advice tidbits buried in the Sutras "...A person is known by the company they hang out with" type wisdom.

So moral action for a Buddhist is...what, exactly? Well, it's that "exactly" that doesn't really allow us to answer. If you look at history and cultures, each has a list of moral and immoral behavior. The problem is, make that list short or thousands of rules long, and someone will find a legal loophole and justify their actions. "Thou shalt not kill." seems pretty cut and dried. Well, you could say the rule only applies to individuals. Governments get to kill all the time to maintain order and fight off neighbor tribes or take land God promised them and it's moral. Besides, it could mean murder and not kill. So don't take the law into your own hands...unless you're defending yourself. Or your property. And so on.

So any list of moral laws won't work. In my case, I was taught compassion trumps precepts. The Precepts say don't lie, and that makes sense. Lies hurt people. But suppose the only way to help someone is with a lie? The truth can actually be used as a weapon against people. And so it goes.

I don't and won't give a pat answer. Try to do the right thing. Realize you're going to make mistakes and own them. Do your best. Act out of compassion when possible and hang the rules if you know they're getting in the way of helping people in this case. What other moral rules do we need beyond that?

lobster

If I may I would change your question to 'what is skilful'.
As a general rule, it is not skilful to harm ourselves or others. This is why we move not from where others are but from where we are.

Sometimes we need a code, examples and inspiration. So the Buddhist moral code in the eightfold path is our direction.
Our understanding or requirement may vary.

The Middle Class Way is not always applicable or possible, in your case it is? Great.

Do the best you know how. What else is there?


:wave:

grackle

For me moral conduct must involve justice. Justice is a higher standard to live by. How many of us will know the security of justice even once in this very life? I try my best to extend justice to all.

footiam

followthepath said:

According to the book What Makes You Not A Buddhist by Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse, the Buddha never set the standard for morality. The author states that whatever enhances the four noble seals is morally right and whatever action takes you away from the four noble seals is morally wrong. Another Buddhist told me the same thing: whatever facilitates your understanding of the four noble seals is morally right.

How do you decide what facilitates your understanding of the four noble truths? I did a lot of thinking about this and I decided that to understand the four noble truths the only thing I need is to be physiologically healthy. You can't ponder Buddhism if you're starving, in other words. Does that mean that anything that leads to physiological health is good and anything that leads away from it is bad? Aren't there a lot of actions that don't facilitate your understanding of the four seals, but don't take you away from the four seals as well? In other words, aren't there a lot of neutral actions?

Should a Buddhist aim to follow the Eightfold path or just live according to the above standard? Is the Eightfold path even a path to morality or does it just lead to the end of suffering?

I'm a new Buddhist and I'd appreciate any input. Thank you.

There is a popular story about Buddha and the guitar strings, maybe Sitar strings. Once, in search of the truth, Buddha went to the extreme, over starving himself. Then, someone fed him, and he realised that he has to be have food and be healthy; just like the guitar strings, which when too taut, snap; and too loose don't play a note. I suppose one has to be physiologically healthy but that probably has nothing to do with morality.
I would like to believe that in Buddhism, morality is not something that can be distinguished clearly into two groups, black and white. Surely, there must be some grey areas; our mind will have to scrutinise and decide for each and every situation.

Maybe, you should check this out http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/morality1.htm

person

karasti said:

For me, I think morals are inherent, just some people are more clear on them than others (like anything else in life, really). As I've continued to practice both in sitting meditation and the rest of life, it's become much more clear to me what is the right way and what isn't. And when I do something wrong/unskillful, it's an immediate jolt and I know to correct it asap. I don't, anymore, have many times where I don't realize i did wrong hours, days, or longer after it happened. As was said above, when it's right, you just know it. But it's a knowing on a far deeper level than most of us are used to at first. There is a very discernible difference between the "Yes! I GOT IT!" that the ego tends to feed us, surrounded in arrogance and the deeper level of just knowing. Without having to label it or even have an emotional feeling of success or excitement about it. It just is, and that's all there is to it. You know it when it happens but it's hard to put words to it, for me anyhow.

Overall I agree with your post @Karasti, as we put the Dharma into practice we develop an internal compass that allows us to discern what is the right action.

I have to take issue with your use of the word inherent though. It is a word with a specific and important meaning in a Buddhist context. It means existing as a permanent, inseparable element. I don't think morality or anything for that matter can be divorced from the people and context it finds itself in. I don't think that is how you meant it and I didn't take it that way but I feel its important to keep "inherent" in its proper context.

how

@followthepath
Trying to answer without mentioning morality once
......Dam!


Taking refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma & the Sangha.

Ceasing from evil, doing only good & purifying one's heart/mind.

Fostering compassion, love & wisdom over greed, hate & delusion.

are pretty simple traditional compass points to follow.

When a situation arises that this compass doesn't seem to address
it is usually the time to consider
if it isn't my responsibility to deal with,
or it's not yet the best time to deal with it
or if I am too close to the problem to see anything clearly.

Meditation is my way of trying to not allow my conditioned responses to anything be the deciding factor in what I do. (Getting beyond my own myopic views)
&
As mentioned elsewhere, one's study, digestion and manifestation of the 4 Noble Truths and the 8 Fold Path are the Buddhist's answer.
.

zenff

Buddhist morality is based on not-harming.

The best contribution I can make is to try and dissolve my greed, anger and delusion; and by doing so possibly influence some people on the way.
As soon as my mind is clear (is free from greed, anger and delusion) I no longer have any reason to harm myself or others. Not wanting to do harm is our natural, radiant, state of mind.

This doesn’t make me a “good” person. I think in Buddhism the reason for “moral’” behavior is practical. It makes me feel better; happier; less troubled; free.

And of course it is a bumpy road. Nobody's perfect.

seeker242

followthepath said:

According to the book What Makes You Not A Buddhist by Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse, the Buddha never set the standard for morality. The author states that whatever enhances the four noble seals is morally right and whatever action takes you away from the four noble seals is morally wrong. Another Buddhist told me the same thing: whatever facilitates your understanding of the four noble seals is morally right.

Sounds like an expedient means to teach people, who have some kind of aversion to a standard of morality, a standard of morality!

Whatever facilitates your understanding of the four noble seals is morally right. But how would you know what facilitates that understanding if you don't first have an understanding of them? Seems to me you ask someone who already has that understanding their advice. AKA The Buddha. As there are some things the certainly diminish it and some things that certainly facilitate it.

Should a Buddhist aim to follow the Eightfold path or just live according to the above standard?

It's really the same thing IMO.

yagr

Cinorjer said:

Act out of compassion when possible and hang the rules if you know they're getting in the way of helping people in this case. What other moral rules do we need beyond that?

A quote from one of my characters recently pointed out, “Traditions are there to serve the People; the people are not there to serve the traditions.”

Chaz

SpinyNorman said:

followthepath said:

I'm trying to learn how to do breath focused meditation, but so far all I've done is read about Buddhism and practice mindfulness without meditating.

Is there a local Buddhist group or centre that you could visit?

Dude! I got into some hot water for posting something like that.

That said, I like your direction.

karasti

@person thank you for that information. I only meant it as something that is "inside" us versus something we learn from God, or our parents or whatever.

vinlyn

With perhaps a rare situation here and there, I've never found many situations where I didn't have an inward sense of what was right or wrong. (That's not to say I always did the right thing, however).

Jeffrey

I have memories of bad things I did just because I didn't know any better.

lobster

Just to mention again.
Morality is not a judgement or a single behaviour. The morality of those with limited possibilities may be basic compared to Sangha.

We do what we can, drawing strength and inspiration from the Middle Way.

Aspiring_Buddhist

I think morality in Buddhism is clearly defined:

Take refuge in the Three Jewels.
Accept the Four Noble Truths and walk the Eight-fold path.
Be mindful of your Karma.

The Dhammapada is a very good source of Buddhist morality.

Jeffrey

I think it is quite difficult to know what is for good and what is for ill. For example when you are having some kind of conflict with someone it takes practice to make good of the situation. Until then we can look up to role models who have the knowledge and experience to help others. The mahayana doesn't just teach end of suffering of you, rather it also teaches an end to suffering of all beings.

Second, the four noble truths and eight fold path are advanced realizations. Buddha gave his first sermon on them. But the listeners were advanced spiritual practitioners who had mastered various forms of meditation. For some of us who are not that advanced the four noble truths becomes the four logical ideas and the noble part is right view of the eightfold, but right view is not that commonly shown. So then the eightfold path becomes self improvement which is all fine and good. We need self improvement, but improving doesn't cut through the ego. That is to say the improving can lose it's way from cutting the ego. With right view that is the right kind of improvement that DOES cut the ego. Just mundane, ordinary views do not cut ego at its source.

person

I often argue for the subjective and relativistic nature of Buddhist ethics as an opposition of fundamental, inherent morality.

I think I've been lax in adding what is the basis for Buddhist morality.

Everyone, really everything with a mind, wants to be happy and wants to avoid pain. Everyone also equally has a right to obtain these, no one more than anyone else.

I think those two statements are true and dependent upon them Buddhism bases its teachings of nonharm and compassion.

anataman

You know when you are right.

If you don't there's this niggling feeling that you are wrong and then you start to become defensive of your view if it's challenged (you don't want to lose face right?) and then if you are challenged you have to justify that view (because you don't want to lose face, right?) and then you might get into an argument and if the other person doesn't agree with you, you might raise your voice and they might pull out a knife and then they pull out a gun and in self-defence and you can't remember why you are in the position you are in because the situation is so tense and so you throw your hand grenade because you think they have pressed the button thats sending a nuke heading your way.

And all they did was challenge your view, when you were uncertain of it. Right?

Mettha

karasti

Not everyone practices Mahayana though, @Jeffrey‌.

Once a person masters the Eightfold Path, it seems that is about when Enlightenment will come. It is not something you simply do, but something you aspire to one day be able to do completely. it is truly a practice because one cannot simply just do it.

wangchuey

Morals is one of those things that is both easy and difficult to understand just like karma. I think people try to make it seem difficult by bringing up situations that would rarely happen. It still falls back to the same principles of having loving kindness and not animosity or ill will.

how

Some schools put the emphasis on graduated or specific Dharma meals according to the students current ability to fully digest them.

Other schools say that all Dharma is useful food and and leave it to the student to digest where, what and whenever they are able.

People often choose their school according to which teaching method they are more comfortable with.

anataman

@how, I feel somewhat akin to that view as I'm currently walking along a skew-whiff path with a tuna sandwich in one hand and a gingerbeer in another and with this awful heartburn that makes me feel uncomfortable.

But I guess at least I'm attuned to it.

sova

to be an astronaut, knowing how to build a rocket ship is only somewhat useful

four noble truths and four dharma seals are not the same

four dharma seals (from which all of buddhadharma can be extrapolated) are

1. everything conditioned is impermanent
2. everything defiling is painful
3. all phenomena are empty of an independent "self" = selflessness
4. nirvana is peace

meditation is a natural part of learning to observe the mind without grabbing

to uproot the most fundamental shadow-snatching it is really helpful to sit in a quiet place and let the murky waters of the river settle.

if this is not yet something you love to do, go to a yoga class. it is more of a workout than weighlifting and other gym activities, and you will experience the joys of synchronizing your mind and body.

in general, don't keep a result in mind, but really take an honest look at things within your mindstream.

thinking about it another way,
habit-energy, tendencies, proclivities, they dominate our functioning. seldom are our actions truly inspired and fresh. for a fully realized Buddha they are always like this (naturally amazing)

settle the mind and relax into "observing" and you can then "see" or understand greater patterns of the mind.

it is said by the Great masters that by growing and nurturing the beneficial patterns and tendencies
and abandoning the unhelpful ones,
by gaining sovereignty over ones mind
one is unbound

like a bird to swing freely out from its cage

and happily soar the sky.

without meditation you can still make good progress. be vigilant

the buddha is not found by searching outside. to paraphrase many great noble beings.

person

@anataman said:
You know when you are right.

If you don't there's this niggling feeling that you are wrong and then you start to become defensive of your view if it's challenged (you don't want to lose face right?) and then if you are challenged you have to justify that view (because you don't want to lose face, right?) and then you might get into an argument and if the other person doesn't agree with you, you might raise your voice and they might pull out a knife and then they pull out a gun and in self-defence and you can't remember why you are in the position you are in because the situation is so tense and so you throw your hand grenade because you think they have pressed the button thats sending a nuke heading your way.

And all they did was challenge your view, when you were uncertain of it. Right?

Mettha

If you live in Florida though, you're justified.

Cinorjer

What really bothers me is when people claim that because someone is "Enlightened", then he is beyond moral laws and may act anyway he likes, because of course any actions he takes must be selfless. No matter how many times that worship and excuse comes back to bite people, it seems they never learn.

Jeffrey

Not everyone practices Mahayana though, @Jeffrey‌.

Once a person masters the Eightfold Path, it seems that is about when Enlightenment will come. It is not something you simply do, but something you aspire to one day be able to do completely. it is truly a practice because one cannot simply just do it.

Absolutely not everyone practices what I do. Still I think I have a point for all Buddhist students that Buddha gave his sermon about the eightfold path to advanced yogis. All I am saying is that it is the NOBLE eightfold path and not just self improvement. And absolutely it IS something you aspire to. It takes a lot of work to get to right view. Definitely.

Jeffrey

Incidentally I think some people have the idea that the Mahayana students think they are above morality. This is not true. There are five stages of practice in the mahayana. The very first stage you learn morality and the intellectual understanding of prajna paramita.

anataman

WITH you on the Mahayana path @jeffrey> @sova said:

to be an astronaut, knowing how to build a rocket ship is only somewhat useful

four noble truths and four dharma seals are not the same

four dharma seals (from which all of buddhadharma can be extrapolated) are

1. everything conditioned is impermanent
2. everything defiling is painful
3. all phenomena are empty of an independent "self" = selflessness
4. nirvana is peace

meditation is a natural part of learning to observe the mind without grabbing

to uproot the most fundamental shadow-snatching it is really helpful to sit in a quiet place and let the murky waters of the river settle.

if this is not yet something you love to do, go to a yoga class. it is more of a workout than weighlifting and other gym activities, and you will experience the joys of synchronizing your mind and body.

in general, don't keep a result in mind, but really take an honest look at things within your mindstream.

thinking about it another way,
habit-energy, tendencies, proclivities, they dominate our functioning. seldom are our actions truly inspired and fresh. for a fully realized Buddha they are always like this (naturally amazing)

settle the mind and relax into "observing" and you can then "see" or understand greater patterns of the mind.

it is said by the Great masters that by growing and nurturing the beneficial patterns and tendencies
and abandoning the unhelpful ones,
by gaining sovereignty over ones mind
one is unbound

like a bird to swing freely out from its cage

and happily soar the sky.

without meditation you can still make good progress. be vigilant

the buddha is not found by searching outside. to paraphrase many great noble beings.

@sova do you think that In recognising the selflessess in all phenomena, realises your phenomenal selflessness, and that opens you up to fully realise Liberation?

Citta

A pretty good rule of thumb is to start with the question ' does this action cause more harm than would be the case if I didnt '
Sometimes of course everything you do or don't do is going to hurt someone.

But we can try to acertain the action which minimises the harm.

And suicide bombing I would suggest falls at the first fence.

followthepath

Thanks everyone for your responses. I looked on about.com and it seems like any action that is motivated by greed, hatred, or delusion is morally wrong. I'm also reading a book called The Noble Eightfold Path by Bhikkhu Bodhi and he's given me a pretty good idea of what greed and delusion are, although I still find both terms pretty confusing.

federica

> How do you decide what is morally right?

I always check with my mom.
They're ALWAYS right!

Aspiring_Buddhist

Empathy is very important in determining what is "right." If you were on the receiving end of an act, how would you feel about it?

To quote His Holiness the Dalai Lama: "My religion is kindness." Anyone, regardless of creed, can put that into practice, and achieve a "more moral" state of being.

betaboy

Kant's categorical imperative comes in handy. No need for religion or morality, including the noble truths. Just saying.......

lobster

@federica said:
I always check with my mom.
They're ALWAYS right!

Mumma, Momma . . . ommum Ma

wangchuey

This has helped me understand morality.

http://audio.buddhistdoor.com/eng/play/770

http://www.buddhanet.net/liaofans.htm

vinlyn

I'll be honest. I don't get this thread. Some of you seem awfully challenged about knowing what's right.

I would remind you:

ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN

(a guide for Global Leadership)

All I really need to know about how to live and what to do and how to be I learned in kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sand pile at school.
These are the things I learned:

Share everything.
Play fair.
Don't hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don't take things that aren't yours.
Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.
Wash your hands before you eat.
Flush.
Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
Live a balanced life - learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
Take a nap every afternoon.
When you go out in the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands and stick together.
Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the Styrofoam cup: the roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the Styrofoam cup - they all die. So do we.
And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books and the first word you learned - the biggest word of all - LOOK.

Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation. Ecology and politics and equality and sane living.

Take any one of those items and extrapolate it into sophisticated adult terms and apply it to your family life or your work or government or your world and it holds true and clear and firm. Think what a better world it would be if we all - the whole world - had cookies and milk at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon and then lay down with our blankies for a nap. Or if all governments had as a basic policy to always put things back where they found them and to clean up their own mess.

And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out in the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.
[Source: "ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN" by Robert Fulghum. See his web site at http://www.robertfulghum.com/ ]

karasti

The OP did ask how it all relates to four seals, I assume trying to come to a conclusion that works within that and also feels morally right. But, even for more experienced people, judging by previous conversations here, it gets gray in some areas. To some, eating meat is absolutely a moral issue. To some it isn't. To some watching copyrighted material on youtube is ok, to some it is not. And so on. Sometimes we make things unnecessarily complex, to be sure. But sometimes it's hard to figure out when society is telling us some thing are perfectly acceptable but other Buddhists are telling us the opposite. Especially if those things are things we have always done. It can be hard to investigate those things.

I love Robert Fulghum's books Well, the ones I have read.