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Meditation Is Not A Magical Activity. Its an Infection.
Citta
Veteran
Buddhanature should it exist, and for most of us right at the moment it is speculation..is not waiting for you to sit down and watch the breath so that it can spring out and go ' tah -da ! '
You can sit for 20 minutes twice a day and watch your breath, for five years, and you can eschew burgers and smile and... nothing might happen...
Sitting and watching the breath is not magic. Even after reading the latest Ajahn Brahm or listening to your chill out tape.
The fact is meditation needs a context. And that context is Sangha..real flesh and blood Sangha preferably.
Meditation, or dhyana to give it its Sanskrit name is caught not taught.
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Comments
That's an interesting way to look at it.
No doubt. For me, at this point, Sangha is what anchors my practice.
@Citta
Interesting post....
But
after many years of investigation, a number of long term studies on creating a vaccine against the common cold, shut down after finding thousands of different variations of this infection. As much as we might like to be able to categorize people or meditation to provide some security amidst the chaos, the purpose of a meditation practice is to transcend the identity that seeks such security.
Do we walk directly towards awakening from the dream or do tally with its make-over?
'The fact is meditation needs a context'
I agree.
Get in where you fit in. Make practice possible.
...
...
The operant thing @how is not the fitness of any given metaphor...a metaphor is just a metaphor after all.
The central point I was making is the huge advantage conferred by real world hands-on Sangha.
Despite any bad experiences that one might have in that area.
Without such Sangha most people do not maintain their practice beyond a certain point.
They give up or go round in circles.
Ajahn Sumedho ' show me a person who has had 10 years experience of self directed practice and I will show you a person who may actually have had one years experience repeated 10 times '.
' show me a person who has had 10 years experience of self directed practice and I will show you a person who may actually have had one years experience repeated 10 times '.
Oh. Ok. I can show you all sorts of people too.
Its possible @Vastmind that Ajahn Sumedho has had more experience in the matter than most of us.
@Citta
No matter how much I call my metaphor back for a rematch, it remains out there sniffing the bushes and cocking it's leg.
While I agree completely for how much a Sangha can aid a meditation practice, the Buddha's own understanding only came to fruition after he eshwed all Sangha.
Both states have their place in a practice. Thinking that either is complete onto itself is like believing that either individual leg can allow one to walk with balance compared to using both of them.
Oh shit, there its off again.
Whereupon he instituted the Sangha and enshrined it in the Three Jewels.
When Buddha did so (enshrined the Sangha in the Three Jewels) was he including all the lay people and householders in that, or at his time, was he only including ordained people? Just curious.
There is absolutely value in both individual and group/Sangha practice. Personally, I get much more value out of my individual practice when I am regularly (weekly) attending Sangha meetings. I notice when I am missing several meetings in a row, my individual practice begins to suffer and so does my motivation after a few weeks. I started to practice on my own, and man, it was HARD. When we put together our Sangha and developed those relationships, my individual practice got much easier.
But, when I think of our Sangha (which, when taken as an entirety has maybe 70 or so students who meet in person and like 150 total that participate online) I'm not sure that is what Buddha mean when he talked about it in his time. That doesn't make it less valuable, of course. I do not have access to a monastic Sangha as in an entire community of ordained peoples.
Its a good question @karasti and its not clear to me that Sangha as we now conceive would be recognised by the Buddha, apart obviously from the monastic Sangha
But we live in a very different world.
Your experience of the impetus gained on one's individual practice when supported by a Sangha is echoed in the experience of many.
Could be possible. I don't know him and he doesn't know me.
If you go on the regular, then why are we calling out and talking about people who don't or can't? I don't understand .... ??? If your foundation is solid, then why worry about someone else blowing you over? I don't get it ... Someone knowing the 'wrong' stuff shouldn't be able to rub off on you.
Are we trying to help others by encouraging them to go to centers/temples or to make ourselves feel good that we do the right/better thing? This subject always comes across to me as condescending...You act like you know what everyone is doing and who they do it with....hahaha. People go where they want and with who they want. Like you said...times have changed, so crowds change too.
... No need to answer. Those are rhetorical questions.
I will leave them with you then Vastmind.. : )
^^^ There goes that stone at the notice board...... hahaha
It was said light- heatedly and with metta to you and yours. Truly.
Unfortunately I can't get my smilies to work.
So I will bow to you with steepled hands like this...
_/_
No need to bow.
..
Our Sangha relationship is a work in progress...hahahaha. ..
Thats good. ..
That was in reference to someone who goes a year, quits, goes a year, quits. It doesn't have anything to do with a sangha. It has to do with steadiness in meditation.
He may have said it more than once @Jeffrey.
But on that occasion I was there and it was in response to someone who asked about practising exclusively by oneself compared to someone who practises with a group.
We were very fortunate in living a fairly short distance from Amaravati Monastery near London where Ajahn Sumedho taught every Sunday afternoon for 20 years before he retired.
"light-heatedly" - wonderful!
although i dont post much, I do read most of what is posted. from reading all your posts im always inspired everyday. I feel I have made great gains in my practice.
The variety of people on here from different schools or indeed none of all, means the topics covered and responses given all really challenge my thinking and the different practices I do.
I was kind of hoping we were a sanga? x
We are Sangha! Mettha
I think online communities can indeed be Sanghas. How wonderful for people who to be able to connect in such a way! There are benefits to both (online and in-person) for sure. Just hard to do group meditation this way, since we are all in different time zones and so on
I often think of certain members comments when meditating, and sometimes they cause me severe irritation. How wonderful is that. A Sangha that works for me.
A Sangha is a little slice of the variety of humanity who collect under a Buddhist Banner.
Everything from F-wits to saints.
I have in the past supported some really irritating Sangha members when others have tried to have them removed because a Meditation practice is actually working with what is, not what you'd like it to be. Meditating in the company of saints, like meditating on your own is comforting but poorly prepares you for the world we live in. Meditating in the company of those who push your buttons however will prepare you to meditate anywhere.
One of the best graces that a Sangha can offer over a solo practice, is a meditation practice well developed within the chaos of life over all that we might otherwise avoid or cling to.
Yup all thrown together like diamonds in a tumble polisher.
Dead teachers don't kick arse when arse kicking is required.
And Sangha that you can click off doesn't either.
Recently by the Karmapa (or at least on his FB feed)
No this context is life.
People’s clothes or their shaved heads or even their explicit Buddhist commitments make little difference.
Some teachers are sociopaths and we can do without their “guidance” very well. Some people who have zero connection with formal Buddhism can be perfect examples of living Dharma.
I think the point is that isolation – as an individual or as a group of people – is the obstacle.
A sangha can be a cult. You don’t become a better person from being stuck in a cult.
Why do you think Sangha equals shaved heads and distinctive clothes ?
Why do you think that Sangha equals ordained sangha ?
What experience have you had that means that you automatically equate teacher and sociopath ?
And sangha with cult ?
Some interesting meme formation there....
It's obviously to anyone with first grade reading comprehension that Zenff didn't equate teacher and sociopath, nor sangha with cult.
Makes you wonder what they do in some sanghas.
Still miffed then ? Lol.
No, he equated SOME teachers with sociopaths and possibly SOME sanghas with cults. not all of them. But @Zero's statement of "no, the context is life" is just as short-sighted as the declarative statement to begin with that said it was a fact that the context of meditation is sangha. The key here is in their experience, in their opinion, in their belief. Something like meditation cannot be applied as a 100% for sure factual context for everyone who uses it. My context of meditation is very, very different from my mother's and so on. Both Sangha and life within the context of meditation can be really important, and they probably both should be to most practitioners, however they define each thing. But neither of them should be listed as a fact that is meant to apply to everyone across the board. It's pretty rare that you can do that with anything.
@Nevermind you must have positive comments to add sometimes, right? Maybe it's just my perception but almost all of your comments come across as insulting and divisive. It's like you don't speak up unless you have someone to poke with your stick.
Still "bending language"?
You may be able to manipulate some people on this forum, but not everyone. Sorry.
I am going to disagree @karasti..hopefully in a way that does not disrespect you or your views..
But I simply do not accept that Dhyana is sustainable outside of flesh and blood sangha.
Perhaps some kinds of meditation practice are. And those practices may well have all sorts of positive and desirable outcomes.
But in the context of Buddhadharma the THREE jewels are of the essence.
You're a living example of how good fleshy sangha is Citta.
Of course they are, but at the same time, what constitutes a Sangha is even up for debate, as we talked about before. That said, I personally cannot pretend to understand all Buddhist lineages and their teachings,and the position of every student on every path to be able to tell them that their study is improper, or bound to fail because their idea of Sangha isn't the same as mine. And we can certainly disagree without a loss of respect. I totally understand what you are saying, and I absolutely respect you have been practicing much, much longer than me and with some amazing teachers at that. I always hold what you (and most others here) say with high regard, and I keep them in mind as I go through my own practice.
I’m just saying there’s no need to be upset when you’re not in a Buddhist group.
Every interaction with other people can contain a teaching.
Life is practice.
Of course Dhyana is not the only option...
We can certainly agree about that.
I am reluctant to define a Sangha for anyone simply because I think it's unfair to say if someone doesn't have access to an in-the-flesh Sangha, their practice won't go anywhere. Because not everyone has access. When I first started, I did not. Online was the only connection I had to other Buddhists. Then a year later things changed, thankfully. But people in rural and more isolated areas might not be anywhere near enough a Buddhist teacher or other Buddhists they can form a group with. Thankfully now we have the internet and people can meet up with other students and teachers online, on youtube, and so on. It's not as ideal as something in person, but it's better than nothing, too.
I may have to think about my own views @karasti, and ask myself if they have ossified..
When i first came across all this there was no internet, not even cell phones..there was no choice , it was isolation or flesh and blood sangha..
It may well be that my view is too narrow...you have given me food for thought.
I may have to think about my own attitude @karasti, and ask myself if its gotten pokey.
It may well be that my attitude is too aggressive...you have given me food for thought.
_/_
My Lama said adhistana, or blessing, is not controlled by time and space. I would say this includes the location of a practitioner near or far, rural or in contact. The dharmakaya radiates to everyone respecting neither high or low. The guy who rescues a dog in the trash and rehabilitates it from dying to life in a loving family may not have discovered a sangha. Nonetheless I think he experiences the enjoyment body of Buddha which would be the fruits of selfless effort for the benefit of sentient beings.
But Zero's statement of "no, the context is life" is just as short-sighted as the declarative statement to begin with that said it was a fact that the context of meditation is sangha.
Not me!!