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Lying
msac123
Explorer
One of the five precepts is lying, but I feel like you have to lie for someone's wellbeing. What do you think?
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Could you give an example of such lying? The famous examples are if Nazis ask you if you are hiding jews. And also if asked if someone looks attractive in an outfit.
Remember that breaking a precept requires certain things to be in place, including intent.
Another classic example is, if you are out for a hike and see a deer. Then a hunter comes by and asks if you had seen it, and you say no, wanting to protect the deer from being killed. That is not breaking the precept. But you do have to be cautious in how you discern that and truly be willing to investigate what your motivation/intent is.
I see. That's what I was thinking too.
An example would be like half lying. For example, if a daughter tells their parents that they are going out to do errands, which is true, but is also going to see her boyfriend. The reason that she wouldn't tell her mother about her boyfriend is because she wants to keep the peace. If she told her mother that she was going over there, things would start going really bad. So, to keep the peace she doesn't tell her mother because she doesn't want her mother to flip out.
Yeah I have that actually in my life. If I am the boyfriend I wouldn't tell my gf to stop lying unless she specifically asked me. The reason is that her relationship to her parents only she can know.
But if I am a girl in that situation I would probably lie and try to make money to live on my own.
I think having a significant other is important to a persons health. So I would sacrifice that precept.
Heck I just realized I projected the girl as lying to her parents. It could be a boy.
That's an excellent example, @msac123
Thank you Jeffrey, I really appreciate it.
My wife asks me every day 'do I look big in this?'. I normally say 'no you look gorgeous'. The other day, I said,' perhaps you have put on a little weight recently, just testing the water'.
I open my heart to suffer the consequences of lying to her from now on... lol
I think it's better to not actually lie.
IMO in this example the lie could be more about protecting oneself from the mother's anger and doesn't really fit the model of benefiting another.
In general the purpose behind the precepts is to do no harm, to help others if possible and to better prepare our minds for meditative efforts. So following the precepts strictly can contradict these principles thus they can be a little flexible. We need to use our best wisdom and discernment to decide the best course of action. The precepts are there for our own benefit, to help us, not simply a code of laws that we can try to skirt around through our lawyering skills.
It takes time to get it right and gain the right view. In the meantime, when in doubt follow the rules.
I think that a lot of the time we wouldn't know the actual truth if it came up behind and us bit us on the bum.
A story from the Sufi tradition. Just to show Ed that he doesn't have a monopoly in that area...: )
Nasruddin was in the coffee house debating with the King.
The King maintained that the truth was a simple black and white matter..its true or it isn't.
Nasruddin disagreed.
The King who had been quite reasonable until then turned all Kingish and said
'I will build a gallows over there and ask you a question. If you lie you will be hung '
'Ok' said Nasruddin, wishing he had accepted the third baklava that he had turned down for stoutness reasons.
The gallows was built. 'Nasruddin' said His Majesty...'where are you going this afternoon '?
By way of a warm -up.
' Your Majesty, I am going to be hung on those gallows.' said Nasruddin.
'No you are not'..said the King.
'Well then I have told a lie...you had better hang me ' replied Nasruddin.
'But that would make it true' said the King.
' Exactly replied Nasruddin, 'your truth.
Indeed, when tangled in a web of lies.
'Your greatest lie is that you think that you exist '
Padmasambhava.
I think everyone just really has to know the whole situation and the people involved. In the case of the mom and the boyfriend, there might be a really good reason the mom is concerned with the boyfriend that the daughter cannot see. That's happened to me, where I was just rebellious and wanted what wanted despite my parents concern. But then later in life having my own teenager, I can see why she was concerned and what for, even though 20 years ago I just figured she was being unreasonable and didn't understand.
So yes, many times I lied to get to spend time with my boyfriend. But that doesn't mean I was truly trying to benefit my mother. I was benefiting myself in getting what I wanted at all costs.
Everything I write is a lie, including this.
A lie is a misrepresentation of the truth. My guide to when it is acceptable or not depends on how **wide **my vision is as to whether it's overall result will be compassion, love and wisdom or greed, hate or delusion.
Usually if it ever comes down to a question of whether I should tell a truth or a lie, there is really a third option that I need to look for.
I think it's not your place to notify the mother. That's between mother and daughter, I think. However, a minor under the care of the parents is another matter. Even that considered if a 'son' or 'daughter' is like in their 30s living with mom then they should be able to make their own decisions.
An example would be like half lying. For example, if a daughter tells their parents that they are going out to do errands, which is true, but is also going to see her boyfriend. The reason that she wouldn't tell her mother about her boyfriend is because she wants to keep the peace. If she told her mother that she was going over there, things would start going really bad. So, to keep the peace she doesn't tell her mother because she doesn't want her mother to flip out.
If I were the boyfriend, I wouldn't wish to be the cause of the lying.
Each interaction has a consequence.
Personally, I find it challenging standing by something that I myself know to be untrue given that inevitably I stand without knowing the truth, if there is such a thing.
Intentional misleading I think serves selfish purposes.
What about in a job interview if they ask 'are you a people person'?
Answer; ' I love people. Particularly the liver. With a rather nice Chianti and fava beans.
slurpslurpslurpslurp'.
If the job demands that you be a 'people person' and you're not then what's the point of going for the job let alone lying to land it?
I learned a very valuable lesson once, and although it wasn't specifically about being a people person, it was about hiring. As a fairly new principal, I felt I needed to get rid of a teacher. It wasn't something she could have been fired for...too vague...but clearly she was a detriment to our program. Finally we came to an agreement -- she would leave if I would write her a very good (fortunately it didn't have to be "glowing") letter of recommendation and that I would give her an equally good reference if an employer called and asked for a verbal reference. I agreed. And a few weeks later I got such a call and gave the very good reference. End of story. Not!
A year later I got a call from that principal, and he reamed me out for giving him a written and verbal reference that obviously was untrue based on the performance of that teacher they had hired. At the close of a very unpleasant conversation he said, "You're a fairly new principal, aren't you? You haven't learned the code words yet. Have you?" I confessed I had no idea what he meant, and he explained that principals learn certain code words in reference letters that other principals understand, and then act upon the application appropriately. He suggested I talk to a trusted local colleague for a lesson. I went to a close colleague, told him the story, and he burst out laughing...and then taught me the code words.
Lies in interviews (and references) do come back to bite you!
You could go on a language bender and say something like you're a pro-people-person person. Bending language is not lying, so I've heard.
Let me guess. She's a great "people person," or "all the girls like her."
A lie is usually the reinforcement for what brought about the conditions of our birth.
Every lie helps maintain the very dream that the Buddha encouraged everyone to try to awaken from. Not only should the lie be avoided but a Buddhist practitioner interested in the development of equanimity should choice to live in such a way that lies are not a requirement of that lifestyle choice.
With a careful examination, finding yourself in a position of lying can usually be traced to the consequence of ones previous lies. If we can't stop lying to others, how will we ever face and put to rest the lies we tell ourselves.
Ah no, it has to be professional language!
True, but what if you are in s situation where you need to get that job because you are poor and have no other financial options?
Tough luck. Either you're qualified or you're not. That's being moral, or not. Convenient lies are still lies.
That's true.
Yes, as @Zero indicates, some lies are selfish lies...to get something you want. That's quite different than the unselfish lie (e.g., "How do you like my new dress?" "It's the ugliest damn thing I ever saw." As opposed to something like, "It's a nice design."
True, true. In the end, it's the intention that decides if it's selfish, good, or bad. Now even if someone had good intentions and did something not good, I don't think that their action was bad, selfish, or etc, if they did not realize it. If the end up realizing it and still have good intentions, they should do what is better to match up with that good intention.
We have to lie when we have to. The important thing is to know the difference between survival and abusing others for selfish reasons.
Almost all lies are self or tribe related. The cost of being truthful usually requires fostering a greater love for your practice than of self or your place within a tribe.
The quandary about pleasing others can either be addressed by saying whatever pleases them or by accepting that perhaps it is not actually your business to please them in this way. The latter choice will winnow out those "friends" who look to you to support their storyline while leaving you with friends that better value your honesty over pleasing verbiage..
Your remaining friends are likely to be a more supportive structure for your life practice.
It always seems to come down to the priorities that one chooses to live by.
Well said.
You bring up a good point, yes, it is very different if the daughter in question is 16 or 26.
For me, what I usually use to determine the proper course is how it's going to make me feel. If I know I am deceiving someone, I also know through experience that it hurts me in the end more than anyone else. The stress and anxiety that can be caused even by little lies, can get to be pretty immense. Living a life where you are having to lie about an important part of your life, isn't a way to live.
It just really, really depends. When I was younger, I lied alot. Not in a way of making up fantasy or anything, but because I had very prying parents and I tend to be a very private person. So even when I was technically an adult living on my own, I often lied to them about aspects of my life to get them off my back. At that time, being truthful about certain things just seemed impossible and I wasn't old enough to really know why I did it so that I could explain to them "Look, I am on my own and I want some privacy." That said, even then, my parents had a right to be concerned. but whether they knew what was going on in my life or not, I was still making the same decisions, so their worry didn't do anything but stress them out, and make me withdraw from them. At the time, I just wanted them to stay out of my life. I was like 18-20, so yes, technically an adult but still reliant on my parents for support in many ways. It's a tricky time in life, for sure.
So, sometimes it can help to look at it from the other person's point of view and ask yourself why they are worried about you spending time with that person. Perhaps they have a valid concern. Or perhaps they have some -ist tendencies and don't like that you are dating a person of another race, or faith, or whatever.
Human relationships are just so difficult, lol.
"And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood."
— SN 45.8
Why would you have to lie for someone's wellbeing? I've never had to do that. I've never had to lie for any reason. And I took Buddhist vows when I was 8 years old. Once you make a commitment to a vow, you find ways of dealing with situations that allow you to keep the vow.
It's a discipline. Once the discipline is in place, other things fall into place around it. Often, the compassionate thing for someone is to hear the truth, gently and compassionately spoken, rather than a lie.
I can think of situations where I've lied to my kids, trying to do the best thing for them when they were too young to understand situations but had questions. If one has kids and participates in santa, easter bunny, tooth fairy, really all of that is lying in some sense, too.
When their dad died, my kids were 12 and 6. They had a lot of questions I couldn't answer, and some of the answers, I made up a little. Some of them I didn't want to tell them exactly what I believed, because it was too complex for a 6 year old to understand. So there was some level of fibbing to help their mental health stay stable. They wanted to know if I was going to die. They were very scared, so even though my normal answer (and they know this now, of course) would be that yes, everyone dies and someday so will I, I answered that "no, I'm healthy and fine and I'm here." A fib in a way, yes, but one meant to truly protect their mental well being to the best of my ability at the time.
Well, let me give you an example of something I was thinking about today as a result of a neighbor who is a little too blunt about his opinions.
Back when I was p'pal, there was one teacher who was emotionally needed. She was actually a very good teacher, but remarkably unsure of herself. I knew that virtually every morning before school that Holly would stop by my office for her pep talk. I don't mean once in a while, I mean at least 4 days out of 5. Frankly, I didn't have the time. And the honest thing for me to do would have been to tell her, "Holly, I don't have time to hold your hand every morning just because you pathetically insecure. Go do your work." Instead, I lived a lie and gave her her 5-10 minutes every morning.
I could have been blunt, but I chose to give the person what they needed, whether it was logical or not.
So when your mother who was 83 asked you how you liked her new dress...which was horrid, you would have said, "It's horrid"?
Almost all? How can a lie not involve self or other?
Lying necessarily involves the 'tribe' or others, and for that reason it is nonsensical to try separating a social practice from a social group. Devotion to a social practice is directly related to social status. For instance, if someone were to habitually behave selfishly and lie, they would either have low social status, or they might be the CEO of a large corporation and enjoy high status.
Don't kid yourself, we all have a storyline. Like the storyline about never lying. Do we want to have the identity of someone who never lies, even at the cost to others?
Or just enabling your storyline about being someone who never lies.
Rather I think it comes down to our various intents and purposes. Priorities are quite often out of our control.
With the girlfriend (or boy) example I think it is like the meat industry. If I don't do the lying it is not my fault. The girl (or boy) gets to decide on how their relationship with their parents is going to be. They can do that without my butting in. This hits close to home because of my personal situation, but I don't want to talk about that.
@Nevermind
Some story lines can be an agenda of misreading a commonly shared language.
Lies come in many forms.
(your Quote) Almost all? How can a lie not involve self or other?
Lies of self and our place in a tribe are both lies to protect ourselves. Lies to protect another can be for selfless purposes but are far less common. I said that** almost** all lies are self or tribe related because of this latter exception.
(my quote) The cost of being truthful usually requires fostering a greater love for your practice than of self or your place within a tribe.
(your quote) Lying necessarily involves the 'tribe' or others, and for that reason it is nonsensical to try separating a social practice from a social group. Devotion to a social practice is directly related to social status. For instance, if someone were to habitually behave selfishly and lie, they would either have low social status, or they might be the CEO of a large corporation and enjoy high status.
The equating of a social practice from a social group is just your own construct that you then criticize.
I simply said that being truthful arises from loving truthfulness more than our protectiveness of self or it's social acceptance.
(your quote) Don't kid yourself, we all have a storyline. Like the storyline about never lying. Do we want to have the identity of someone who never lies, even at the cost to others?
The point isn't about who has a story line and who doesn't, its about who's story line requires our lying verbal support and who doesn't.
the rest doesn't even warrant clarification
I wouldn't lie. If it was colorful, I'd say "it's colorful and cheerful". I'd find something truthful to say about it. Or I might say something like, "Aren't you strutting your stuff today!" in an enthusiastic tone. And I might add, "We should go shopping together sometime." (So I could help her make a better selection.)
The point is that once you've taken the vow, you find ways to deal with situations like this. Options you never would have thought of before open up. It really works. That's pretty much what the vows are about, imo. Commitment to the vow creates the will to find alternatives to lying. And where there's a will, there's a way.
Here are some of my thoughts about lying if you're interested:
I don't know if it's ever OK to lie, but I do think it can be easier to deal with certain situations by lying than not. The question is, how much effort do we want to put into observing the fourth precept? At times, I've put forth a lot, but others, not so much. Looking back, though, I don't think I've ever really had a good reason to lie when I did as much as I simply found it to be more expedient. And since becoming interested in Buddhism, I've found myself lying less and immediately correcting myself when I do catch myself telling a fib or exaggerating the truth.
That said, the Buddha seems to take the position that lying is never really 'OK.' Thanissaro Bhikkhu, for example, notes that throughout the 550 birth stories contained in the Jakata, the precept against lying is the only precept the Buddha doesn't break. Moreover, the Buddha appears to hold truthfulness in pretty high regard (see examples of his words on truthfulness here).
Personally, I tend to agree with Aristotle that lying isn't legitimate (something that's morally justified) unless overridden by some higher virtue, such as the lying to save someone's life (which is probably a position more in line with Mahayana than Theravada). In most circumstances, if I'm forced into a position where I have to either lie or watch someone die because I tell the truth, I'm going to lie my ass off. The only issue I have with scenarios like the Nazi one mentioned above, however, is that it (like most hypotheticals of this nature) seem to be based on the assumption that lying is the only way to protect a family of Jews hiding in your basement or whatever the dilemma happens to be.
In the Nazi dilemma, for example, one could, say, preemptively befriend local Nazis, having a few drinks with them or whatnot, so that they wouldn't even be suspected of harbouring Jews in the first place. Or, if confronted unexpectedly, one could simply invite them in (assuming the people were fairly well hidden), offer them a drink and say, "Have a look if you want." It'd be the equivalent of saying "I've got nothing to hide" without actually having to lie.
Either way, there's not much one could do to prevent them from searching one's home if that's what they had in mind to do; although they probably wouldn't look as hard if they didn't feel suspicious. And having an open and friendly attitude would probably help. But like I said, I'd have no qualms about lying in this situation if I had to or couldn't think of anything better. In general, though, I think it's better to be truthful than not.
In addition, it should be noted that being honest ≠ being blunt, and tact is also a part of right speech. MN 58, for example, lays down some pretty good guidelines for determining what is worth saying. As Thanissaro Bhikkhu notes at the beginning of his translation:
>
I think that's a good point, and I agree that the more you try to keep the precepts, the better you'll become at finding alternatives to breaking them.
Another way to approach a situation like this, for example, is by turning the question around and asking the person how they feel or think they look. If they're not happy/comfortable with whatever they're wearing, suggest that they change and maybe even help them find something else. And if they're happy, then say that's all that really matters.
The point is that once you've taken the vow, you find ways to deal with situations like this. Options you never would have thought of before open up. It really works. That's pretty much what the vows are about, imo. Commitment to the vow creates the will to find alternatives to lying. And where there's a will, there's a way.
Sorry, I see that as a gentle lie.
There are a lot of ways such a situation can go, depending on the people
"Do you like my dress?"
"It's colorful! We should go shopping."
To most people it's going to be clear you did not answer the question with a yes or no.
But, on the other hand, if someone truly looks horrific, and you say "You look wonderful!" and they go out in public looking horrific, you are not doing them any favors, either. Not only that, but often someone else will point out that she looks less than amazing, and not only does she feel foolish, but you look like an idiot, too. (and a a liar).
Personally, I'd rather be told "That dress cut isn't terribly flattering" than to be allowed to go out thinking I look fine and really looking horrendous. It's like the person who has a booger hanging out of their nose and no one wants to tell them. For the love of Buddha, please tell me.