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Do you pity evil men?
betaboy
Veteran
Not pity as in some artificial nonsense (metta to you bla bla)... but let me give an example.
Let's say you believe in karma and rebirth - you also believe that evil deeds have evil consequences. So you think of someone like Pol Pot (sorry Vinlyn!)... you know the consequences for his actions are gonna be severe. Would you pity him on this basis? Not because you care but because the consequences are so painful that you fear for them.
Do you experience anything like this? Not actual compassion or (agape) love but some sort of pity born of fear.....
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Comments
Yes.
No.
Because Buddhism teaches one to be responsible for one's own actions.
I just do. I don't know why. In the past I couldn't and I didn't understand the Buddhist point of view.
yes.
It would have to depend on the context:
Someone who is doing evil things because they have a mental health issue isn't "evil" to me.
Sadly, this is getting harder and harder to interpret seeing as how there is an ever increasing catalog of "disorders" depending on what it is people are doing. "Oh this person isn't evil, they just have "Needs-to-kill-people-to-feel-happiness" Disorder."
I think if a person is willingly harming others when they know it is wrong is evil, regardless of their mental state. If they're harming people because they think everyone around them is an assassin from the KGB, that is a bit different. Again, their actions are wrong, but I try to feel sympathy for any such person.
I live with bipolar disorder, and, while not being on the same level as other mental disorders, I tend to feel some sympathy/empathy with people who have to live with any mental issues. Part of the reason why I am getting my Psych degree.
I pity a person's need to do evil things to satisfy themselves, but that pity doesn't translate into permission/tolerance for their behavior. I do have pity/empathy for people who cannot interpret reality the same most people do, and have hurt a person/animal because of that reason.
Again, its all about context.
(Yes - I know people interpret reality differently, but I mean from a strict medical standpoint, not a philosophical/moral one.)
Sogyal Rinpoche has some related comments.
But of course this all depends on how you define the word "Pity"
Couldn't it be said, though, that basically anyone who could do such things (sadistic rape, murder, torture etc) is mentally ill in some way? Someone operating from even a somewhat normal mental state does not do things like that. They are so far removed from their true nature that I'm not sure I could think of people like that as simply average people. Note that I am in no way saying anyone with a diagnosed mental illness is comparable to people who do those types of horrible things. I am not trying to confuse the 2 things, just saying I personally think anyone who can do those things isn't of a normal frame of mind and thus in some way suffer mental illness. I don't believe in people being evil. Because everyone has the same basic, true nature, and the selves we hold onto in our lives just cover that up. Because a person is made up of both those things, I am not willing to say any person is evil...because that basic true nature is always there. It's just far, far more clogged up and lost than most of the rest of us.
For the original question, pity doesn't have a place in my life, really, not for those alive or dead. I don't find it makes much sense simply to feel bad for someone. It implies (to me) some condescension. Those I know who pity others do so by holding themselves at some lofty, superior level and look down on others and pity them. So while indeed I can practice compassion for those like Pol Pot who are no doubt suffering as a result of their actions, I do not pity them. Who knows what kinds of horrible things I have done in other lifetimes.
Yes, because there is a lot of suffering in someone who harms others, and acting like this just buries them deeper in their suffering.
No, in theory. I understand that the suffering a Pol Pot has brought upon himself by his previous choices must be endured by him as this is a natural moral consequence to correct the situation while it may provide opportunity for future awakening.
Yet if I find a suffering animal, even a rat or snake, I pity the poor suffering little thing. Maybe I drove past Pol Pot or his equivalent as roadkill last night on my way home from work? Poor little senseless creature gasping with a crushed chest it's last breaths on cold concrete, completely oblivious to what just happened or why.
My final answer is NO in theory, and YES in real time.
No, wait a minnit (edit in progress!)
My final FINAL answer is NO in truth, and YES in samsara.
I don't ascribe to the notion that people are evil. They may do evil things, but people themselves are not evil.
Yes, on the basis of your premise, if you feel bad for someone you see suffering and the karmic cause of that has its roots in some past action of theirs. So if an 'evil' person is engaging in negative acts now they will suffer for them in the future so why wouldn't you feel pity or compassion for them.
IMHO there is no such thing as an evil person, we are all people who do positive and negative things, do and say negative or positive things, some more so than others. Nobody is 100% evil.
I don't know why, but even here people still seem to think in extremes and generalizations... :coffee:
I think that all people, whether you call them good or evil, are essentially still trying to find happiness and avoid pain/suffering. I don't "pity" people who harm others again and again, but I think many of them may have empathy disorders (they may be sociopaths or psychopaths).
They should be held accountable, but we shouldn't hate them. If we hate these people, we're only hating ourselves... because everything they are is essentially the same as us, under different circumstances.
A guy I was friends with many years ago wound up murdering all 6 of his kids to spite his wife. Apparently he intended to kill himself afterwards, but couldn't pull it off.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/bc-court-hears-chilling-account-of-siblings-murder/article1166295/
He was a normal young man when I knew him. He wasn't evil till that day. At least to no one except perhaps his wife. After, there are few people who wouldn't consider him the devil.
Yes, I pity him. I can't even imagine his suffering everyday for the rest of his life.
@robot We'd have to have a debate about whether it's the person, the intentions, or the actions that are evil (and what exactly "evil" means). If your friend wasn't evil until that day... he wouldn't have committed that act, would he? It's more like he had evil intentions (Inhell Inside), but hadn't acted on them until that time.
Someone murdering all six of their own children sounds like they were/are pretty messed up psychologically. Sounds like a character from the first season of American Horror Story. It's still hard to label people because their minds can change; he can't take back the act, but who knows what's going on inside his head?
I generally hate that. :crazy: Stereotyping is born from lazy thinking and apathy.
Hate what exactly, the post, people speaking in generalizations, or you hate 'that'?
@ThailandTom Generalizations. Stereotypes. People not taking any time to try and understand the lives and perspectives of others, and thus shrugging them off and labeling them without a second thought. In other words I was agreeing with you, including the "extremes" which keep people from being realistic and seeing situations clearly.
@AldrisTorvalds yea I see it a lot more so in the past few years, that may be because of me being older or other factors I do not know. But a lot people seem to see black and white everywhere, no grey tones, no middle way or balance. There was a quote about people who speak in generalizations which I have forgotten... I should try to find it.
I don't hate it, it just seems very ignorant to me, sure labels have their time and place, but many people seem to be going around throwing their ideologies and generalizations like a baseball in the world series or something.
Anyone feel up to defining what an 'evil man' is?
@ThailandTom It's a mark of your own growth to recognize the limitations of that kind of thinking. The reality is that there aren't many certainties to be had in this world, and the only ones that really matter are the ones we aren't pursuing with enough passion (certainties about the nature of mind and all phenomena). Those who shield themselves in false certainties and simultaneously bandy them about like a sword, hoping to inflict them as lasting wounds upon others, would do better to drop them!
I quote myself, again.
IMHO there is no such thing as an evil person, we are all people who do positive and negative things, do and say negative or positive things, some more so than others. Nobody is 100% evil.
I get it Tom. If you take a peek up two posts from where you wrote that, you'll see that I said pretty much the same thing. Nevertheless, the question was asked from the OP's perspective and I'm thinking that if I have some sort of understanding about what he or she means by 'evil man' I might better respond. I'm trying not to assume.
I cant pity evil if it is towards myself. But I normally pity people who look so serious all the time. Its sometimes funny how serious people are. Its like they dont realize that they may die at any moment.
Or worse, they might start living at any moment.
But hey, while we're on the subject... you said you can't pity evil if it is towards you. Can you give an example of evil directed at you?
@ThailandTom This topic spun off one a short ways down the list titled "compassion" where we discussed it a lot further. There were several people who agreed with what you are saying, myself included. I do not believe in people being evil in the manner in which we are talking.
On this site I don't tend to read the filling of the sandwich's as it happens to be the posts in between OPs and what I intend to write as it often takes a different route, as does conversation IRL. So I just read OPs post and answer...
I have seen people on death row have pure love towards a cat for example, he was allowed to be given a pet cat on death row and he seemed genuinely loving and had come to terms with what he had done. There is good to be found in everyone.
That in itself is a stereotype.
Oh wait...my mistake...not a stereotype...but rather a cliche.
@vinlyn
All generalizations are dangerous, even this one.
Alexandre Dumas
@vinlyn Ha! Well there's nothing wrong with clichés, except maybe their frequency.
Perhaps a definition of stereotype would suffice: "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing".
And Alexandre Dumas was a writer, a man who can spend hours sitting and thinking and contemplating. Unfortunately, in the modern work world, that isn't true in most professions any more.
In fact, what is a generalization -- often it's wisdom. Buddha made many generalizations. You're not debunking Buddha, are you?
I remember my first post as an assistant principal. It was an "okay" school. The discipline was left to the 2 of us assistant principals. My workload was 7-11 discipline cases a day...not to mention evaluating teachers, meeting with parents, official meetings, general student supervision, and so forth. If I had taken the fullest degree of investigation of each discipline case...well, that would probably have averaged about 3 hours/case. Let's see, that would be 21-33 hours a day...without all my other responsibilities. Gee, how many 33 hour work days do you put in. Sometimes we have to take short cuts to get beyond the minutiae. And there's lots of very repetitive minutiae out there.
The Buddha also emphasized on duality and the line between labels / generalizations being used in worldly terms, ie because they just make day to day life easier. But I feel that people who tend to use generalizations have for the most part formed some sort of attachment to that generalization, be it little or large. This is just what I see in day to day life personally.
Including myself at times I might add :P
Yes, I've noticed that. Often. Glad you noticed it, as well.
@vinlyn duly noted. Well tis a learning curve is it not, life? You need to know you are making mistakes before you can change them.
You're a good man, Tom.
Now the sarcasm mind games really start, are you sure you are not too tired back there for this?
No, I really mean it, despite our sometimes differences, I think you're a good man.
I pity good men who have to live with evil men.