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The dark side of Buddhism is just the reflection of the dark side of our minds, the defilements of greed, hatred, and delusion. Whether we're talking about social institutions or individuals, these three roots of what is unskillful condition many evil, unskillful qualities to arise and 'come into play.' We have to be on guard against them at all times, in ourselves as well as in others.
Just so that us Theravadians dont get all up and mighty about drunken teachers here is a story about a drunken saint from the Samyutta nikaya.
[At Kapilavasthu] Now at that time Sarakaani the Sakyan, who had died, was proclaimed by the Blessed One to be a Stream-Winner, not subject to rebirth in states of woe, assured of enlightenment. At this, a number of the Sakyans, whenever they met each other or came together in company, were indignant and angry, and said scornfully: "A fine thing, a marvelous thing! Nowadays anyone can become a Stream-Winner, if the Blessed One has proclaimed Sarakaani who died to be Stream-Winner... assured of enlightenment! Why, Sarakaani failed in his training and took to drink!"
Kind of like Marpa perhaps. Even though Milarepa begged for teaching, Marpa didn't go along. At least not at first. He put Mila through the wringer, so to speak.
The guru is the one who leads you to awakening. He's not some schmo you happen to approve of.
Or perhaps like Atisha's Bengali Tea Boy who only irritated and angered his master and so helped Aitsha in his Lojong trainning.
The thing is, you never really know what form the Guru will take until he comes and the choice is seldom yours.
Why is the focus always on CTR? What about Sogyal Rinpoche and Rigpa and their refusal to discuss the sex abuse allegations made against him? Despite that, I still found his book invaluable to my early understanding of Buddhism, it has amazing practices and prayers for the sick and dying, and that book is in my top 3 books about Buddhism. I use it frequently, and often refer back to it. His behavior does not lessen the value of the information in his teaching. And his isn't even a case of "we know he slept with students but we aren't sure how they felt about it." because they have been on video saying they were exploited and abused, and at least one of them settled out of court and received payment while Sogyal and Rigpa admitted no wrongdoing and they (as far as I have seen) still refuse to admit to any wrongdoing.
The view I have a problem with, that I see often when reading such stories, is that anyone who has a teacher, is considered vulnerable to that teacher and therefore susceptible to abuse simply happening to them. I don't buy that. Now, I am not, at all, blaming victims of sexual abuse and violence. I just don't buy that every woman with a male teacher is therefore vulnerable in some way. Just because I'm a woman doesn't make me vulnerable to my teacher. While I personally could never even contemplate sleeping with my teacher (it would feel akin to sleeping with my father...just wrong) if for some reason I chose to do so, it wouldn't be because I was vulnerable and taken advantage of, yet that is how the story would be told.
I have not had an easy time with teachers not walking their talk.
I see this as a human compartmentalizing of their experiences and where various realms of understanding exist in isolation from each other. A teacher may demonstrate some Dharmic brilliance when tapping one compartment but imparted with that teaching is the same delusive ego transmission that isolates it from the others. Here, where a dazzled student sees a teacher offering jeweled manifestations of the Dharma, is only a jailer offering public tours of his own prison.
The real damage occurs when a student expecting to find the understanding demonstrated in one cell, follows the teacher into others where no such understanding exists.
As I indicated earlier I cannot reconcile my own experiences with Trungpa Rinpoche and what I know to be true about his dark side. In fact I have stopped trying.
Which does not mean for a moment that I am in denial about the very real harm he did..
Or that I excuse a single moment of it.
But..and..as I have said before he was more awake and more alive than anyone else I have ever met before in my life until I met ChNN. And he, Trungpa Rinpoche, was frequently enormously kind and gentle..
He was both. And that is hard to reconcile.
When you looked him in the eye you realised with a kind of vertigo that he had no fear at all
That he no longer operated at the level of self reference...
This could be liberating..it was also in the absence of the kind of checks and balances found in pre-occupation Tibet, terribly dangerous.
@karasti said:
Why is the focus always on CTR? What about Sogyal Rinpoche and Rigpa and their refusal to discuss the sex abuse allegations made against him? Despite that, I still found his book invaluable to my early understanding of Buddhism, it has amazing practices and prayers for the sick and dying, and that book is in my top 3 books about Buddhism. I use it frequently, and often refer back to it. His behavior does not lessen the value of the information in his teaching. And his isn't even a case of "we know he slept with students but we aren't sure how they felt about it." because they have been on video saying they were exploited and abused, and at least one of them settled out of court and received payment while Sogyal and Rigpa admitted no wrongdoing and they (as far as I have seen) still refuse to admit to any wrongdoing.
I am in a bit of a sticky point here.
My teacher, who by the way has a spotless reputation and truly lives up to his teaching, is travelling a lot this year and I'm considering joining another centre closer to my home in order to supplement my practice.
Choices are Rigpa, New Kadampa and Diamond Way (Ole Nydahl), all of them controversial. There are some Zen centres but though I like Zen, I have always moved in Tibetan circles.
Which one should I choose?
I tilt towards Rigpa but I still can't get over the allegations.
@Citta said:
The chances are dharmamom that if you attended Rigpa classes that you would have no contact with Sogyal Rinpoche at all..its a huge organisation.
Likewise Diamond Way. The most you are likely to see of Ole Nydahl is off in the distance on a platform.
I know, but I was just wondering if the centres are good for meditation.
I know, but I was just wondering if the centres are good for meditation.
All centers are good for meditation.
Which will get in the way of this the least? I had a Diamond Way very near to me. Never went, their web site seemed obsessed with the naughtiness of the false karmapa and their preferred Chinese promoted dude who did not impress on the videos I saw.
My local New kadampa were very put out that I arrived at a non prescribed time. Please try and come at the official times, was their preference. Very impressed with themselves for using English.
Rigpa seemed unconcerned that they had no contact with the Chinese Buddhist temple on the same rd.
Quite liked the last Zen center I went to, did not seem to have any axe to grind.
In a strange way you will get the most out of what has no attraction/attachment for you IMO.
I tried to even consider crustacean sex for 0.01 minutes, and my brain hurt too much. Sorry hon, as much as I love you, I'll have to let that one slide.
@dharmamom said: I am in a bit of a sticky point here.
My teacher, who by the way has a spotless reputation and truly lives up to his teaching, is travelling a lot this year and I'm considering joining another centre closer to my home in order to supplement my practice.
Choices are Rigpa, New Kadampa and Diamond Way (Ole Nydahl), all of them controversial. There are some Zen centres but though I like Zen, I have always moved in Tibetan circles.
Which one should I choose?
I tilt towards Rigpa but I still can't get over the allegations.
If I were you, since your teacher's absence is only temporary, and you're looking mainly for meditation (per your later post), I'd go for Zen. If you only plan to attend more or less sporadically, maybe Rigpa would work out, as a short- to medium-term fix.
Are there any Chan groups in your area? Some Chan sanghas seem pretty cool.
I don't know @dakini about any Chan centres.
As to the Zen centre, it was recommended to me by the director of Tibet Haus here in Switzerland. He's Tibetan, so I have to guess the centre must be pretty good if this man prefers them to the other Tibetan-tradition schools.
There is also a Geshe Rabten Rinpoche school, have to check if they stick to the principles of late Geshe Rabten...
I mean, I never considered my virtue's integrity could be at jeopardy in the Rigpa and Diamond Way centres, but I prefer to stay away from all controversies.
I guess Rigpa and Geshe Rabten are strong options.
I like reading Zen bibliography, but I still feel it's another world from my practice.
Thank you for all your answers!
Despite still being a Karma Kagyu student ( with a Nyingmapa/Dzogchen teacher ) I have no axe to grind in the' Which Karmapa debate ' but to reduce the whole complex issue to one of the candidates being the ' preferred Chinese dude ' shows both a high degree of insensitivity and a complete ignorance of the issues.
And why the fact that Rigpa and a Chinese Temple in the same very long road have no awareness of each other ..( its no doubt mutual ) would only be relevant as a critique if you ascribe to the demonstrably false view that there is some kind of pan-Buddhist culture that transcends cultural boundaries...
That would be like expecting your local Baptist church to be on good terms with the Catholics down the road...they may or may not be.
@Citta said:
Despite still being a Karma Kagyu student ( with a Nyingmapa/Dzogchen teacher ) I have no axe to grind in the' Which Karmapa debate ' but to reduce the whole complex issue to one of the candidates being the ' preferred Chinese dude ' shows both a high degree of insensitivity and a complete ignorance of the issues.
Quite right. The so-called "Karmapa Controversy" is pretty much old news and much of the lineage has moved on. There are 2 Karmapas. That's a little wierd, but there's no rule chiseled in stone that says there can be only one. This isn't Highlander. If Avalokiteshvara can manifest in both the Dalai Lama and Karmapa, I suppose the Karmapa ba take birth as two beings instead of one. Why not?
Ultimately, very few students are directly connected to the Karmapa. They are normaly affiliated with teachers who may have a formal relationship HH. One of them anyway.
Whoever it is, the lineage remains unbroken.
Just to show how complicated it can get..my wife has two main teachers.
One is tutor to one of the Karmapas, the other aligns himself with the other Karmapa..
Everyone knows the other people involved.
No one sees it as an odd situation..
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear...and so will the other teacher.... And the teacher's other student... And the other student-teacher.... Ant the teacher you first thought of..
@federica said:
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear...and so will the other teacher.... And the teacher's other student... And the other student-teacher.... Ant the teacher you first thought of..
Thats pretty much it actually. Her first teacher Thrangu Rinpoche is now elderly and in poor health and travels little now, formerly he used to hold a Summer School each year in the UK...whereupon by serendipidy she discovered her second teacher,Lama Jama Thaye who is a student of her first teacher..But they each follow different Karmapas..
She was thrown by this intially, and then realised that she does not have to choose at all.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Well, on a tangent, when my ex H. and I had to attend court to officially divide goods and chattels he had his Barrister and I had mine. Both of course had their respective client's best interest at heart.
Of course.
My barrister was his barrister's tutor at Law School.... And actually, had it not been for my (current) husband's intervention, the two of them would have cooked up a fictitious complication and forced the hearing to be extended to 2, maybe even 3 separate, disjointed days.
Not funny, when one client has to travel from abroad.
Current Home put paid to their little game, and all matters were resolved within 2 hours.
Sorry, off topic.
But if both teachers are very much keeping to the same 'programme' I can't see any room for it being a problem, either...
But if both teachers are very much keeping to the same 'programme' I can't see any room for it being a problem, either...
It depends on just what you mean by "program" (programme).
I have a lot of friends who are affiliated with both Shambhala and some other (traditional) organization. There's a bit of a difference in emphasis(program?) there.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2014
Well, I follow Theravada but find some.non-conflicting teachings from the Mahayana Tradition to sit comfortably with me..
That is to say, I am happy to implement both, with no feeling of Mind discomfort, if that makes any sense....
(Had to edit typos. Having only a phone at the moment is hard work!)
@Citta said:
Nor I federica, but there are those who really get their katas in a twist about it all...
On some websites the topic is banned because war breaks out.....
Yeah. Some people take it a bit too far, I'm afraid.
I tend to be a purist. I stick to one lineage and I have my Guru, of course. I have my little flirtations with Zen, but end up sticking pretty close to home and I think that's best.
I try real hard to not get preachy about it, and try to leave others to their path.
That said, I think that you can go to far with too many directions. What constitutes "too many" is kinda relative. For some, one lineage of teaching and practice is more that enough. For others there can be more, but there comes a point ....
Like @Citta said, not worth getting your kata in a twist (I like the analogy), though.
Comments
I guess the dark side in Buddhism are the hell realms, but delectable sources did tell me that they have picnics there.
I also once heard a monk say that to ordain without truly practicing is to set your robes on fire while wearing them.
If my teacher happens to have a little dirt under his nails, that's ok.
I think it depends how much dirt. And how long it's been there.
Exactly @lobster - I couldn't have put it better.
Smart cushions? Will have to think about that one - could be a real market there as people come online...
Anyway I couldn't take a drunk or womaniser seriously as a Buddhist teacher.
Odd that a President didn't suffer enormously as a result of his transgressions...
Which in the case of CTR might have been academic. You have no way of knowing that he would have agreed to take you seriously as a student.
He was pretty fussy.
Shoot, I'd have been a-gonner....
Oh, I would think being brought up on charges of impeachment was suffering.
And although I wanted him to resign -- even though I'm a Democrat -- for lying, in terms of the sex scandal itself, they were both legally adults.
The dark side of Buddhism is just the reflection of the dark side of our minds, the defilements of greed, hatred, and delusion. Whether we're talking about social institutions or individuals, these three roots of what is unskillful condition many evil, unskillful qualities to arise and 'come into play.' We have to be on guard against them at all times, in ourselves as well as in others.
Just so that us Theravadians dont get all up and mighty about drunken teachers here is a story about a drunken saint from the Samyutta nikaya.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.024.wlsh.html
It is just pointing out that sotapannas are still bound by sensual pleasure.
So you can come pretty far on the path but still enjoy sex and drink.
/Victor
Fuck me, I'll drink to that.
Kind of like Marpa perhaps. Even though Milarepa begged for teaching, Marpa didn't go along. At least not at first. He put Mila through the wringer, so to speak.
The guru is the one who leads you to awakening. He's not some schmo you happen to approve of.
Or perhaps like Atisha's Bengali Tea Boy who only irritated and angered his master and so helped Aitsha in his Lojong trainning.
The thing is, you never really know what form the Guru will take until he comes and the choice is seldom yours.
True that.
But not at all in keeping with current cultural norms.
Hmmm. Sounds like a case of "Do as I say, not as I do"
Well from the outside of an organisation things can sound like a lot of things ..can't they.
Why is the focus always on CTR? What about Sogyal Rinpoche and Rigpa and their refusal to discuss the sex abuse allegations made against him? Despite that, I still found his book invaluable to my early understanding of Buddhism, it has amazing practices and prayers for the sick and dying, and that book is in my top 3 books about Buddhism. I use it frequently, and often refer back to it. His behavior does not lessen the value of the information in his teaching. And his isn't even a case of "we know he slept with students but we aren't sure how they felt about it." because they have been on video saying they were exploited and abused, and at least one of them settled out of court and received payment while Sogyal and Rigpa admitted no wrongdoing and they (as far as I have seen) still refuse to admit to any wrongdoing.
The view I have a problem with, that I see often when reading such stories, is that anyone who has a teacher, is considered vulnerable to that teacher and therefore susceptible to abuse simply happening to them. I don't buy that. Now, I am not, at all, blaming victims of sexual abuse and violence. I just don't buy that every woman with a male teacher is therefore vulnerable in some way. Just because I'm a woman doesn't make me vulnerable to my teacher. While I personally could never even contemplate sleeping with my teacher (it would feel akin to sleeping with my father...just wrong) if for some reason I chose to do so, it wouldn't be because I was vulnerable and taken advantage of, yet that is how the story would be told.
I have not had an easy time with teachers not walking their talk.
I see this as a human compartmentalizing of their experiences and where various realms of understanding exist in isolation from each other. A teacher may demonstrate some Dharmic brilliance when tapping one compartment but imparted with that teaching is the same delusive ego transmission that isolates it from the others. Here, where a dazzled student sees a teacher offering jeweled manifestations of the Dharma, is only a jailer offering public tours of his own prison.
The real damage occurs when a student expecting to find the understanding demonstrated in one cell, follows the teacher into others where no such understanding exists.
As I indicated earlier I cannot reconcile my own experiences with Trungpa Rinpoche and what I know to be true about his dark side. In fact I have stopped trying.
Which does not mean for a moment that I am in denial about the very real harm he did..
Or that I excuse a single moment of it.
But..and..as I have said before he was more awake and more alive than anyone else I have ever met before in my life until I met ChNN. And he, Trungpa Rinpoche, was frequently enormously kind and gentle..
He was both. And that is hard to reconcile.
When you looked him in the eye you realised with a kind of vertigo that he had no fear at all
That he no longer operated at the level of self reference...
This could be liberating..it was also in the absence of the kind of checks and balances found in pre-occupation Tibet, terribly dangerous.
I am in a bit of a sticky point here.
My teacher, who by the way has a spotless reputation and truly lives up to his teaching, is travelling a lot this year and I'm considering joining another centre closer to my home in order to supplement my practice.
Choices are Rigpa, New Kadampa and Diamond Way (Ole Nydahl), all of them controversial. There are some Zen centres but though I like Zen, I have always moved in Tibetan circles.
Which one should I choose?
I tilt towards Rigpa but I still can't get over the allegations.
The chances are @dharmamom that if you attended Rigpa classes that you would have no contact with Sogyal Rinpoche at all..its a huge organisation.
Likewise Diamond Way. The most you are likely to see of Ole Nydahl is off in the distance on a platform.
The new kadampa preserved lojong teachings but I don't know if they are good in the present.
I know, but I was just wondering if the centres are good for meditation.
I have no personal knowledge of Diamond Way centres.
I do know that beyond the controversy Ole Nydahl and his sangha teach mainstream Kagyu practices.
Rigpa offers very solid support for Samatha..
All centers are good for meditation.
Which will get in the way of this the least? I had a Diamond Way very near to me. Never went, their web site seemed obsessed with the naughtiness of the false karmapa and their preferred Chinese promoted dude who did not impress on the videos I saw.
My local New kadampa were very put out that I arrived at a non prescribed time. Please try and come at the official times, was their preference. Very impressed with themselves for using English.
Rigpa seemed unconcerned that they had no contact with the Chinese Buddhist temple on the same rd.
Quite liked the last Zen center I went to, did not seem to have any axe to grind.
In a strange way you will get the most out of what has no attraction/attachment for you IMO.
Good luck.
I tried to even consider crustacean sex for 0.01 minutes, and my brain hurt too much. Sorry hon, as much as I love you, I'll have to let that one slide.
Wait that was an invitation..... No?........:P
My teacher, who by the way has a spotless reputation and truly lives up to his teaching, is travelling a lot this year and I'm considering joining another centre closer to my home in order to supplement my practice.
Choices are Rigpa, New Kadampa and Diamond Way (Ole Nydahl), all of them controversial. There are some Zen centres but though I like Zen, I have always moved in Tibetan circles.
Which one should I choose?
I tilt towards Rigpa but I still can't get over the allegations.
If I were you, since your teacher's absence is only temporary, and you're looking mainly for meditation (per your later post), I'd go for Zen. If you only plan to attend more or less sporadically, maybe Rigpa would work out, as a short- to medium-term fix.
Are there any Chan groups in your area? Some Chan sanghas seem pretty cool.
I don't know @dakini about any Chan centres.
As to the Zen centre, it was recommended to me by the director of Tibet Haus here in Switzerland. He's Tibetan, so I have to guess the centre must be pretty good if this man prefers them to the other Tibetan-tradition schools.
There is also a Geshe Rabten Rinpoche school, have to check if they stick to the principles of late Geshe Rabten...
I mean, I never considered my virtue's integrity could be at jeopardy in the Rigpa and Diamond Way centres, but I prefer to stay away from all controversies.
I guess Rigpa and Geshe Rabten are strong options.
I like reading Zen bibliography, but I still feel it's another world from my practice.
Thank you for all your answers!
Despite still being a Karma Kagyu student ( with a Nyingmapa/Dzogchen teacher ) I have no axe to grind in the' Which Karmapa debate ' but to reduce the whole complex issue to one of the candidates being the ' preferred Chinese dude ' shows both a high degree of insensitivity and a complete ignorance of the issues.
And why the fact that Rigpa and a Chinese Temple in the same very long road have no awareness of each other ..( its no doubt mutual ) would only be relevant as a critique if you ascribe to the demonstrably false view that there is some kind of pan-Buddhist culture that transcends cultural boundaries...
That would be like expecting your local Baptist church to be on good terms with the Catholics down the road...they may or may not be.
Buddhism isn't somehow above all that...
I've had involvement with both Rigpa and NKT, and both seemed OK to me ( though do avoid the politics! ).
Thank you, @SpinyNorman!
Quite right. The so-called "Karmapa Controversy" is pretty much old news and much of the lineage has moved on. There are 2 Karmapas. That's a little wierd, but there's no rule chiseled in stone that says there can be only one. This isn't Highlander. If Avalokiteshvara can manifest in both the Dalai Lama and Karmapa, I suppose the Karmapa ba take birth as two beings instead of one. Why not?
Ultimately, very few students are directly connected to the Karmapa. They are normaly affiliated with teachers who may have a formal relationship HH. One of them anyway.
Whoever it is, the lineage remains unbroken.
Just to show how complicated it can get..my wife has two main teachers.
One is tutor to one of the Karmapas, the other aligns himself with the other Karmapa..
Everyone knows the other people involved.
No one sees it as an odd situation..
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear...and so will the other teacher.... And the teacher's other student... And the other student-teacher.... Ant the teacher you first thought of..
Thats pretty much it actually. Her first teacher Thrangu Rinpoche is now elderly and in poor health and travels little now, formerly he used to hold a Summer School each year in the UK...whereupon by serendipidy she discovered her second teacher,Lama Jama Thaye who is a student of her first teacher..But they each follow different Karmapas..
She was thrown by this intially, and then realised that she does not have to choose at all.
I think it happens quite a bit, actually.
Just in case none of them provide cushions . . . bring your own
and now back to the official Sith . . .
I think its more common than one would assume.
Well, on a tangent, when my ex H. and I had to attend court to officially divide goods and chattels he had his Barrister and I had mine. Both of course had their respective client's best interest at heart.
Of course.
My barrister was his barrister's tutor at Law School.... And actually, had it not been for my (current) husband's intervention, the two of them would have cooked up a fictitious complication and forced the hearing to be extended to 2, maybe even 3 separate, disjointed days.
Not funny, when one client has to travel from abroad.
Current Home put paid to their little game, and all matters were resolved within 2 hours.
Sorry, off topic.
But if both teachers are very much keeping to the same 'programme' I can't see any room for it being a problem, either...
It depends on just what you mean by "program" (programme).
I have a lot of friends who are affiliated with both Shambhala and some other (traditional) organization. There's a bit of a difference in emphasis(program?) there.
Well, I follow Theravada but find some.non-conflicting teachings from the Mahayana Tradition to sit comfortably with me..
That is to say, I am happy to implement both, with no feeling of Mind discomfort, if that makes any sense....
(Had to edit typos. Having only a phone at the moment is hard work!)
Nor I @federica, but there are those who really get their katas in a twist about it all...
On some websites the topic is banned because war breaks out.....
Yeah. Some people take it a bit too far, I'm afraid.
I tend to be a purist. I stick to one lineage and I have my Guru, of course. I have my little flirtations with Zen, but end up sticking pretty close to home and I think that's best.
I try real hard to not get preachy about it, and try to leave others to their path.
That said, I think that you can go to far with too many directions. What constitutes "too many" is kinda relative. For some, one lineage of teaching and practice is more that enough. For others there can be more, but there comes a point ....
Like @Citta said, not worth getting your kata in a twist (I like the analogy), though.