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Nonsense. If lay people can live without carousing, without having multiple simultaneous affairs, without doing drugs, especially without doing those things among groups of people they're teaching or leading in some way, people with extensive spiritual training who have completed lengthy meditation retreats and have established a certain discipline (having lived keeping extensive ascetic vows) should be able to. If most university professors can live without partying and having sex with their students, why wouldn't spiritual teachers be able to manage?
Spiritual teachers like that do exist. The Dalai Lama, obviously. Certain lamas in the Nyingma and Sakya traditions, who have managed to avoid getting involved with sangha members while respecting their marriage and Dharma vows, the abbott/s of Sakya monastery in Seattle, for example. A few of our members in the past have said their teachers are wonderful, and are impeccable. It's not that difficult. Plenty of Western clergy manage, why shouldn't Tibetans or Japanese or Chinese? Some do, in fact.
I'm sure you're familiar with the standards of "virtue" espoused in the Tibetan tradition and in Buddhism in general. That's the source in Buddhist communities.
Some sanghas in the US now require teachers to sign a contract pledging to avoid certain behaviors with students, so clearly, it can be done. What you seem to be saying is that spiritual teachers for some reason can't live as ethically as many lay people do. Why would that be?
Correction. I am not looking for a super human teacher.
I can read comic books for that.
Trying to abstain is not super human.
Working on your delusions and attachments is not super human.
Setting an example for others is super human?
Guess I'm an over achiever then...hahaha
I'm looking for one that practices what he preaches/teaches.
From my understanding the 5 precepts are the basic standards and they go from there as far as more standards for monks/teachers. Correct me If I'm wrong.
I want my Dharma teacher to live up to the hype. That's too much to ask?
That's super human?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
If this is a typical example of how Tibetan Lamas and Buddhists behave then thank goodness I opted for a predominantly Theravadan practice....
Nonsense. If lay people can live without carousing, without having multiple simultaneous affairs, without doing drugs, especially without doing those things among groups of people they're teaching or leading in some way, people with extensive spiritual training who have completed lengthy meditation retreats and have established a certain discipline (having lived keeping extensive ascetic vows) should be able to. If most university professors can live without partying and having sex with their students, why wouldn't spiritual teachers be able to manage?
Spiritual teachers like that do exist. The Dalai Lama, obviously. Certain lamas in the Nyingma and Sakya traditions, who have managed to avoid getting involved with sangha members while respecting their marriage and Dharma vows, the abbott/s of Sakya monastery in Seattle, for example. A few of our members in the past have said their teachers are wonderful, and are impeccable. It's not that difficult. Plenty of Western clergy manage, why shouldn't Tibetans or Japanese or Chinese? Some do, in fact.
I'm sure you're familiar with the standards of "virtue" espoused in the Tibetan tradition and in Buddhism in general. That's the source in Buddhist communities.
Some sanghas in the US now require teachers to sign a contract pledging to avoid certain behaviors with students, so clearly, it can be done. What you seem to be saying is that spiritual teachers for some reason can't live as ethically as many lay people do. Why would that be?
You're absolutely right!
Certainly not everyone, but there are some people who are attracted to Buddhism because there are no commandments, and they think that means Buddhism is an open door to do as you please, and the 5 main Precepts be damned.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Vastmind said:
I'm currently in Zen and can say they have their fair share of scandals too...No stains on Theravadan cloths? ... Not true, I'm afraid.
>
Not saying there aren't. But I prefer the simpler aspects of practice and I personally have never encountered a monk embroiled in a sexual scandal...
The last mess I heard them caught up in was the Chicago Temples ( sex with young girl) and a couple more in TX had problems with hiding and moving monks that were acting suspect with boys. Theres been a few.... how the numbers add up...I dunno. Doesn't matter...
@Vastmind said:
I'm currently in Zen and can say they have their fair share of scandals too..
The most egregious cases in Zen, it seems, were two Zen masters who came to the US back when Zen was very new, so people were thrilled to have them and didn't have the experience to vet them, or to act decisively at the first sign of trouble. But the fact that two such extreme cases ended up coming from Japan into American Zen makes me wonder:
--Was/is Zen in Japan prone to attracting sociopathic or predator types?
--Or was it just somehow bad luck that those two individuals came to the US?
--Or is it that they were attracted to the West, thinking they'd be far from the supervision of home, and would be in a more free environment? Were they escaping something?
I'm looking for one that practices what he preaches/teaches.
That's not hard to find.
In the case of CTR he never taught his students on the matter of sexuality. I guess you could say he treated them like grown-ups in that respect.
From my understanding the 5 precepts are the basic standards and they go from there as far as more standards for monks/teachers. Correct me If I'm wrong.
The importance of the 5P differ across traditions. You did know that, right?
I want my Dharma teacher to live up to the hype. That's too much to ask?
I'd rather a teacher live up to something a bit more substantial than "hype".
That's super human?
Living up to hype? Yeah.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2014
@Chaz said: The importance of the 5P differ across traditions. You did know that, right?
>
Obviously they're not very important at all in the specific tradition you/they follow.
If people disagree with that, that's their prerogative. It doesn't make either them or you wrong.
There is just different emphasis.
@federica said:
Not saying there aren't. But I prefer the simpler aspects of practice and I personally have never encountered a monk embroiled in a sexual scandal...
Quite so, because the vast majority don't.
Our resident teacher was raised in monsatic institutions and completed shedra at Rumtek. While serving a sangha in Germany, he fell in love with a student, renounced his vows and they got married. They later divorced and he has since remarried. He still teaches widely, retains his titles (Acharya, Lama) and serves our sangha. He just isn't robed. He works with a woman who completed a three-year retreat, and has the title Lama. I've never seen her robed. She has two children. I don't know if she was ever married. She teaches Buddhist studies. She's a renowned traslator of Tibetan, widely published, leads a Tara practice group, and last we spoke she had a boyfriend.
The particulars in both cases are none of my business.
The thing is, the vast majority of monastics play by the the rules, but the rules vary.
For instance, @Vastmind mentioned the 5Ps. A lot of us use that to enforce a strict vegetarian diet. In Tibetan circles, some monastics eat meat and some don't. Some traditions allow it, some don't.
I've never heard or read any mention of the 5Ps by my Guru. I took Refuge Vows with him and Bodhisatva Vows with his brother. Precepts aren't even an option. That's not to say we can't take the precepts if we want to. Other senior teachers have taught us the the Precepts aren't binding until we actually take them formally.
Different strokes, right?
I've had people online tell me I wasn't a Buddhist because of that. Dark Side.
@Chaz said: I'd rather a teacher live up to something a bit more substantial than "hype".
Aha! So you would like teachers to live up to something "substantial". And what would that something be?
btw, if your teachers are or were monks, they've taken a lot more than 5 precepts. Monks take vows, lay people don't have to. But the Lam Rim teaches a lot about conduct, karma, and so forth.
Some sects allow "monks" to marry. Notice that your teacher fell in love with a student and married her. He didn't have multiple affairs within the sangha before or after the marriage, give teachings while drunk, or use drugs.
@Dakini said:
Aha! So you would like teachers to live up to something "substantial". And what would that something be?
Their greatest potential. Howz that?
"Aha"? Gimme a frikkin break ....
btw, if your teachers are monks, they've taken a lot more than 5 precepts.
I wouldn't know, at least not with any certainty. The ones that disrobed, returned those vows long before I met them, so it hardly matters. Those that are still robed, have their own karma and I am not the vows compliance police. After spending a lot of time considering CTR, probably the most unconventionaal dharma teacher of my generation, who keeps vows, and precepts and how, hardly seems to matter.
Some sects allow "monks" to marry. Notice that your teacher fell in love with a student and married her. He didn't have multiple affairs within the sangha before or after the marriage, give teachings while drunk, or use drugs.
He drinks. I know because I've had a couple beers with him over the year. He'd give short teachings during tsok practice after a glass of wine. Don't know about drugs and couldn't care less about his sex life. To inquire about that would be just a bit rude. Most people these days have sex before marriage and of course he could have had sex before disrobing. I just don't care.
My teachers course on the mahamudra does not include the precepts. But it does include finding what you truly wish for in your heart. Most of her students already are resigned to find a deeper happiness and they are I would venture without many exceptions to adopt behaviours that are conducive to peace, love, and rock and roll.. haha just kidding.
Her students put on mini-courses with a senior student moderating and teaching to other as interested. They are having a course on the five precepts and my Lama is to some extent involved by answering unknown questions. I missed that course, but just read about the course in our website.
The point is that vajrayana doesn't always cover the 5 precepts. But mostly they start out many teachings saying to cultivate a mind of love and non-harming to other beings.
Not many people want to hurt themselves and others. They just get hooked into negative behaviours such as affairs, lies, and addictions.
I agree with @Dakini that Lam Rim teaches morality. My book, the Jewel Ornament of Liberation, tells all about the paramitas: generosity, ethics, patience, joyful effort, concentration, and prajna/wisdom paramita. Also there is a section dealing with how to repair transgressions. Every day (I believe) Trungpa said to review your intention to uphold the bodhisattva (he took that) and at bedtime review how you did in your day.
My teacher is also vajrayana and we do not focus at all on precepts. As in, they are not mentioned at all unless/until you take refuge, and then the precepts that are taken are not the same 5 that are widely known. They have not been mentioned since. There is not much weight put on them.
I went to a short retreat with Lama Tony Duff (who is robed) who has a young to mid 20s son who travels with him to be his assistant. He was a robed monk before his son was born, as I recall when he talked about his training, travels and masters. They are both lovely people, and good teachers. His son is aspiring to teach but is still young, he did some short teaching sessions during our retreat though. I prefer to accept what I can from their wisdom rather than spend much time thinking about how he can be in robes and have a kid, and where the mom is and so on.
You should prepare your mind as a vessel to receive teachings. And in the end you are the only one who can do that. My lama says not to worry too much about shortcomings that you feel bad about such persnickety things in relationships. This is off the topic of drugs and sex by teachers! But my Lama said that some bad habits would eventually just be as if they were consumed by fire! The mental obstacles would just be consumed by the fire say as by wrathful bodhisattvas.
It is about the Lam Rim and preparing the mind to receive teachings. For example I had 2 glasses of wine with my birthday dinner. Rather than drink more I know I want to listen to my Lamas teaching and I will probably not go back as it gets burried in facebook. So I meditated for 1 hour and listened to some music and just told myself to relax. Now with a tea I will watch the dharma talk. I had to make an effort to be prepared to enjoy teachings.
Everybody has different ways they prepare to hear teachings. Making time and getting in the right frame of mind. For Trungpa he was in the right state of mind while drunk. Yes, I actually believe that Trungpa knew his body and he knew his mind. He took responsibility but it was to himself. The sex is a different topic for the reasons @Dakini gave those being that some of his students maybe were confused by their guru making moves on them and some of them might have been hurt; I don't know having not researched CTR if any of his students have said that they regret being with CTR.
@Jeffrey said:
The sex is a different topic for the reasons Dakini gave those being that some of his students maybe were confused by their guru making moves on them and some of them might have been hurt;
What makes you thinks that's how it was? Ever stop to think that CTR's students were hitting on him? I'm not say CTR never hit on his students. He did. From what I've been told/taught it went both ways.
I think it comes down to choice. I've never heard/read anywhere that CTR forced himself, sexually, on anyone. So, the people that he hit on, and the people who hit on him chose to do something that didn't including blowing him off. Noone was holding a gun to their head. Because they chose to do something we all think is wrong, then they share in the guilt.
How about that?
People got hurt to be sure. But, has every sexual sexual encounter you've had ended with noone getting hurt?
I don't know having not researched CTR if any of his students have said that they regret being with CTR.
I'm sure they're out there. If we polled your ex-girlfriends, how many would say the same about you?
I think, if we want to look at Buddhism in the whole light/darkness duality, the darkness arises from mind. Our own mind. It has nothing to do with anything external or other.
We can point to scandals and other social catastrophes all day long, but they are still just a product of mind, the choices we make, volition.
CTR cautioned us about this. Called it spiritual materialism. We create an ideal in our minds and require that others live up to that. In the case of a teacher, Pema Chodron referred to it as "the Pet Guru". We decide, for oursleves, what the teacher must be, and then we are outraged when the teacher doesn't conform. And it seldom goes farther than the outrage. We stamp our feet, beat our chest and jump up and down with righteous indignation and leave the solution to others. We never find a solution and a lot of times we don't want a solution. A solution requires a cause and the cause is often too close to home to be comfortable.
CTR cautioned us about this. Called it spiritual materialism. We create an ideal in our minds and require that others live up to that. In the case of a teacher, Pema Chodron referred to it as "the Pet Guru". We decide, for oursleves, what the teacher must be, and then we are outraged when the teacher doesn't conform.
The first random thought that popped into my mind was.
If that is what you require of a teacher, then sure, it's not too much to ask. But no one else gets to decide what qualities all teachers, ever, should have. If people always did what we wished they'd do, we'd never have opportunities to practice.
Yes that was my point too. If I have these doubts then he is never gonna be a teacher of mine.
If I can stear my dick better than him who is he to teach me anything? I have dismissed teachers on much less.
Once I saw a Head monk of a monastery who had been training for 50 years sit down to eat.
I could see how his eyes widened just a fraction and could hear his mouth salivating when he spoke. Just by looking at the food.
So I thought. He has spent 50 years of his life for nothing. After just 10 years I had better check on my faculties than he did.
For me the goal is awakening in this life. I do not fool around. Why would I even consider meeting or reading a book from a guy who obviously is worse at handling his asavas than me. He should be reading my books.
My goodness, ego is alive and well, lol.
If you don't want someone as a teacher, then fine and dandy. No one is telling you otherwise that you should.
There really is no better or worse. Everyone is on a different path, including teachers. If you don't like them as a teacher, then don't study from/with them. Done. No need to rant on about your penis.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@karasti everything is about ego even your affirmation of recognising it in me.
And I understand that the Bodhisattva ideal is different from the Arahant ideal. So CTR might be a fine teacher for someone else. But not for my style of cultivation.
From my point of view he seems to be a fun guy that I might want to hang with over a beer but not to take any lessons from.
From my point of view he does not possess any enlightenment that I seek.
That is fine, like I said. I just don't personally understand the point of going on and on and on about it. There are thousands of teachers I do not take on as mine. Some are just different traditions. Some have different beliefs. Some just don't speak to me. I don't focus on them though. I only worry much about who I do want to learn from, not who I don't.
Without boasting. I do get advances from women. And sometimes I am tempted but so far I have never slept with a women while having a relation with another.
And I did not need any marriage vows to keep me from it.
Just the simple knowledge that it would be hurtful to my girlfriend.
Well, but this discussion about teachers developed in the specific context of "The Dark Side of Buddhism", though. Discussing and analyzing what can go wrong in a sangha is relevant to the topic.
Besides, I thought the anecdote about the abbott was interesting. ...oh well. :-/
@karasti said:
That is fine, like I said. I just don't personally understand the point of going on and on and on about it. There are thousands of teachers I do not take on as mine. Some are just different traditions. Some have different beliefs. Some just don't speak to me. I don't focus on them though. I only worry much about who I do want to learn from, not who I don't.
I do not go on and on and on about it. I was explaining why I would never read his book. Like Chaz suggested I should. Waste of my time.
/Victor
PS
But maybe I was a tad bit over indulging in the ego there I agree.
DS
Has anyone here heard of Eisel Mazard? He's some sort of Pali specialist and Phd in I don't know what.
He keeps ranting against the corruption in Buddhism on different sites. I personally think he borders on the delusional narcissist. I don't know if he's a Buddhist or not, or whether he's paid by someone to rail against Buddhism.
I think corruption is an anavoidable feature in any organized religious structure. I'm sorry to find Buddhism is no exception, still it is a human failure, not a failure inherent to the doctrine.
In any case, I don't like how this man attacks Buddhism the way he does.
@Victorious said:
I do not go on and on and on about it. I was explaining why I would never read his book. Like Chaz suggested I should. Waste of my time.
/Victor PS But maybe I was a tad bit over indulging in the ego there I agree.
How did you ever become a Buddhist, I wonder?
The Buddha is said to have abandoned his wife and newborn son in the middle of the night. He also bailed on his responsibility to his people as their Prince. If you won't follow someone who had sex with his students, why do you follow the teachings of someone who took a powder on both his family and his people? If you don't cut CTR any slack, how do you square the Buddha's actions?
@Vastmind said:
^^^ If I had a dollar for every time I heard that, I would be a rich woman!....hahaha
It is a common comment - one I personally find kinda tedious. But if we condemn a teacher for his behavior, shouldn't the Buddha be held to the same standard?
@Chaz said:
The Buddha is said to have abandoned his wife and newborn son in the middle of the night. He also bailed on his responsibility to his people as their Prince. If you won't follow someone who had sex with his students, why do you follow the teachings of someone who took a powder on both his family and his people? If you don't cut CTR any slack, how do you square the Buddha's actions?
@Chaz said:It is, actually.Teachers are human. They pull there pants on one leg at a time, just like you and me.
Can you keep your genitals to yourself? Indefinitely?
It's like requiring a teenager to abstain. They will, for a while. Then one day, they fall from grace.
Bad comparisons. Adults aren't teenagers. And yes, I can keep mine to myself indefinitely, especially in a context in which it's inappropriate to pursue a liaison (which is more to the point). It's called self-control. (It works kinda like the precepts.) If a non-celibate teacher wants a partner, he has the entire population of women outside the sangha from which to choose.
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Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
edited May 2014
"The Buddha" didn't abandon his wife and son, "Siddhartha Gautama" did. Subtle but significant difference in that understanding. Of course we can judge (though some might say there are extenuating circumstances), but we're not judging the fully enlightened being that was known as the Buddha, and referred to himself as the Tathagata, we're judging the unenlightened younger version... in many respects a different person.
I did some bad things when I was a child, but if someone mistakenly thought I'd still do those things today, they wouldn't recognize that I'm not the person I used to be. I carry the blame, but I don't still carry the potential or will to carry out the same juvenile acts.
If any of these teachers did bad things, that's a mark of not being enlightened, not an indictment of enlightenment or truly (fully) enlightened beings being capable of such things.
No, we shouldn't judge him as Buddha, but as Siddhartha, he was not a child when he left his wife and child in search of something greater.
We can appreciate it now, but what would most here say if their partner and parent of their children just up and decided to leave on a spiritual quest?
My question at all is why the focus on the dark side? I don't mean to say to pretend things don't happen or to ignore them. But what purpose does it serve to focus on them? To judge all of Buddhism based on people who identified as such who behaved badly? To be angry?
Comments
Nonsense. If lay people can live without carousing, without having multiple simultaneous affairs, without doing drugs, especially without doing those things among groups of people they're teaching or leading in some way, people with extensive spiritual training who have completed lengthy meditation retreats and have established a certain discipline (having lived keeping extensive ascetic vows) should be able to. If most university professors can live without partying and having sex with their students, why wouldn't spiritual teachers be able to manage?
Spiritual teachers like that do exist. The Dalai Lama, obviously. Certain lamas in the Nyingma and Sakya traditions, who have managed to avoid getting involved with sangha members while respecting their marriage and Dharma vows, the abbott/s of Sakya monastery in Seattle, for example. A few of our members in the past have said their teachers are wonderful, and are impeccable. It's not that difficult. Plenty of Western clergy manage, why shouldn't Tibetans or Japanese or Chinese? Some do, in fact.
I'm sure you're familiar with the standards of "virtue" espoused in the Tibetan tradition and in Buddhism in general. That's the source in Buddhist communities.
Some sanghas in the US now require teachers to sign a contract pledging to avoid certain behaviors with students, so clearly, it can be done. What you seem to be saying is that spiritual teachers for some reason can't live as ethically as many lay people do. Why would that be?
Correction. I am not looking for a super human teacher.
I can read comic books for that.
Trying to abstain is not super human.
Working on your delusions and attachments is not super human.
Setting an example for others is super human?
Guess I'm an over achiever then...hahaha
I'm looking for one that practices what he preaches/teaches.
From my understanding the 5 precepts are the basic standards and they go from there as far as more standards for monks/teachers. Correct me If I'm wrong.
I want my Dharma teacher to live up to the hype. That's too much to ask?
That's super human?
If this is a typical example of how Tibetan Lamas and Buddhists behave then thank goodness I opted for a predominantly Theravadan practice....
I'm currently in Zen and can say they have their fair share of scandals too...No stains on Theravadan cloths? ... Not true, I'm afraid.
Western teachers in the Thai Forest tradition (Theravadan) seem to be pretty good in that regard, AFAIK.
Dakini> @Dakini said:
You're absolutely right!
Certainly not everyone, but there are some people who are attracted to Buddhism because there are no commandments, and they think that means Buddhism is an open door to do as you please, and the 5 main Precepts be damned.
>
Not saying there aren't. But I prefer the simpler aspects of practice and I personally have never encountered a monk embroiled in a sexual scandal...
The last mess I heard them caught up in was the Chicago Temples ( sex with young girl) and a couple more in TX had problems with hiding and moving monks that were acting suspect with boys. Theres been a few.... how the numbers add up...I dunno. Doesn't matter...
The most egregious cases in Zen, it seems, were two Zen masters who came to the US back when Zen was very new, so people were thrilled to have them and didn't have the experience to vet them, or to act decisively at the first sign of trouble. But the fact that two such extreme cases ended up coming from Japan into American Zen makes me wonder:
--Was/is Zen in Japan prone to attracting sociopathic or predator types?
--Or was it just somehow bad luck that those two individuals came to the US?
--Or is it that they were attracted to the West, thinking they'd be far from the supervision of home, and would be in a more free environment? Were they escaping something?
Who knows..... ( shrugs)
Using power to get sex or getting sex to use as power is an everywhere problem.
Guess so .... ;-)
That's not hard to find.
In the case of CTR he never taught his students on the matter of sexuality. I guess you could say he treated them like grown-ups in that respect.
The importance of the 5P differ across traditions. You did know that, right?
I'd rather a teacher live up to something a bit more substantial than "hype".
Living up to hype? Yeah.
>
Obviously they're not very important at all in the specific tradition you/they follow.
If people disagree with that, that's their prerogative. It doesn't make either them or you wrong.
There is just different emphasis.
Quite so, because the vast majority don't.
Our resident teacher was raised in monsatic institutions and completed shedra at Rumtek. While serving a sangha in Germany, he fell in love with a student, renounced his vows and they got married. They later divorced and he has since remarried. He still teaches widely, retains his titles (Acharya, Lama) and serves our sangha. He just isn't robed. He works with a woman who completed a three-year retreat, and has the title Lama. I've never seen her robed. She has two children. I don't know if she was ever married. She teaches Buddhist studies. She's a renowned traslator of Tibetan, widely published, leads a Tara practice group, and last we spoke she had a boyfriend.
The particulars in both cases are none of my business.
The thing is, the vast majority of monastics play by the the rules, but the rules vary.
For instance, @Vastmind mentioned the 5Ps. A lot of us use that to enforce a strict vegetarian diet. In Tibetan circles, some monastics eat meat and some don't. Some traditions allow it, some don't.
I've never heard or read any mention of the 5Ps by my Guru. I took Refuge Vows with him and Bodhisatva Vows with his brother. Precepts aren't even an option. That's not to say we can't take the precepts if we want to. Other senior teachers have taught us the the Precepts aren't binding until we actually take them formally.
Different strokes, right?
I've had people online tell me I wasn't a Buddhist because of that. Dark Side.
My teacher says that outside every Buddhist school there should be a sign "sleep with the guru at your own risk".
Aha! So you would like teachers to live up to something "substantial". And what would that something be?
btw, if your teachers are or were monks, they've taken a lot more than 5 precepts. Monks take vows, lay people don't have to. But the Lam Rim teaches a lot about conduct, karma, and so forth.
Some sects allow "monks" to marry. Notice that your teacher fell in love with a student and married her. He didn't have multiple affairs within the sangha before or after the marriage, give teachings while drunk, or use drugs.
Their greatest potential. Howz that?
"Aha"? Gimme a frikkin break ....
I wouldn't know, at least not with any certainty. The ones that disrobed, returned those vows long before I met them, so it hardly matters. Those that are still robed, have their own karma and I am not the vows compliance police. After spending a lot of time considering CTR, probably the most unconventionaal dharma teacher of my generation, who keeps vows, and precepts and how, hardly seems to matter.
He drinks. I know because I've had a couple beers with him over the year. He'd give short teachings during tsok practice after a glass of wine. Don't know about drugs and couldn't care less about his sex life. To inquire about that would be just a bit rude. Most people these days have sex before marriage and of course he could have had sex before disrobing. I just don't care.
My teachers course on the mahamudra does not include the precepts. But it does include finding what you truly wish for in your heart. Most of her students already are resigned to find a deeper happiness and they are I would venture without many exceptions to adopt behaviours that are conducive to peace, love, and rock and roll.. haha just kidding.
Her students put on mini-courses with a senior student moderating and teaching to other as interested. They are having a course on the five precepts and my Lama is to some extent involved by answering unknown questions. I missed that course, but just read about the course in our website.
The point is that vajrayana doesn't always cover the 5 precepts. But mostly they start out many teachings saying to cultivate a mind of love and non-harming to other beings.
Not many people want to hurt themselves and others. They just get hooked into negative behaviours such as affairs, lies, and addictions.
I agree with @Dakini that Lam Rim teaches morality. My book, the Jewel Ornament of Liberation, tells all about the paramitas: generosity, ethics, patience, joyful effort, concentration, and prajna/wisdom paramita. Also there is a section dealing with how to repair transgressions. Every day (I believe) Trungpa said to review your intention to uphold the bodhisattva (he took that) and at bedtime review how you did in your day.
My teacher is also vajrayana and we do not focus at all on precepts. As in, they are not mentioned at all unless/until you take refuge, and then the precepts that are taken are not the same 5 that are widely known. They have not been mentioned since. There is not much weight put on them.
I went to a short retreat with Lama Tony Duff (who is robed) who has a young to mid 20s son who travels with him to be his assistant. He was a robed monk before his son was born, as I recall when he talked about his training, travels and masters. They are both lovely people, and good teachers. His son is aspiring to teach but is still young, he did some short teaching sessions during our retreat though. I prefer to accept what I can from their wisdom rather than spend much time thinking about how he can be in robes and have a kid, and where the mom is and so on.
You should prepare your mind as a vessel to receive teachings. And in the end you are the only one who can do that. My lama says not to worry too much about shortcomings that you feel bad about such persnickety things in relationships. This is off the topic of drugs and sex by teachers! But my Lama said that some bad habits would eventually just be as if they were consumed by fire! The mental obstacles would just be consumed by the fire say as by wrathful bodhisattvas.
It is about the Lam Rim and preparing the mind to receive teachings. For example I had 2 glasses of wine with my birthday dinner. Rather than drink more I know I want to listen to my Lamas teaching and I will probably not go back as it gets burried in facebook. So I meditated for 1 hour and listened to some music and just told myself to relax. Now with a tea I will watch the dharma talk. I had to make an effort to be prepared to enjoy teachings.
Everybody has different ways they prepare to hear teachings. Making time and getting in the right frame of mind. For Trungpa he was in the right state of mind while drunk. Yes, I actually believe that
Trungpa knew his body and he knew his mind. He took responsibility but it was to himself. The sex is a different topic for the reasons @Dakini gave those being that some of his students maybe were confused by their guru making moves on them and some of them might have been hurt; I don't know having not researched CTR if any of his students have said that they regret being with CTR.
What makes you thinks that's how it was? Ever stop to think that CTR's students were hitting on him? I'm not say CTR never hit on his students. He did. From what I've been told/taught it went both ways.
I think it comes down to choice. I've never heard/read anywhere that CTR forced himself, sexually, on anyone. So, the people that he hit on, and the people who hit on him chose to do something that didn't including blowing him off. Noone was holding a gun to their head. Because they chose to do something we all think is wrong, then they share in the guilt.
How about that?
People got hurt to be sure. But, has every sexual sexual encounter you've had ended with noone getting hurt?
I'm sure they're out there. If we polled your ex-girlfriends, how many would say the same about you?
Practice alert.
The ego is the real winner in what ever side of an argument one takes, so long as righteousness is produced.
I think, if we want to look at Buddhism in the whole light/darkness duality, the darkness arises from mind. Our own mind. It has nothing to do with anything external or other.
We can point to scandals and other social catastrophes all day long, but they are still just a product of mind, the choices we make, volition.
CTR cautioned us about this. Called it spiritual materialism. We create an ideal in our minds and require that others live up to that. In the case of a teacher, Pema Chodron referred to it as "the Pet Guru". We decide, for oursleves, what the teacher must be, and then we are outraged when the teacher doesn't conform. And it seldom goes farther than the outrage. We stamp our feet, beat our chest and jump up and down with righteous indignation and leave the solution to others. We never find a solution and a lot of times we don't want a solution. A solution requires a cause and the cause is often too close to home to be comfortable.
The darker aspects of humanity with pop up where ever there are humans- regardless. As human I am affiliated.
(Italics would be a nice feature)
The first random thought that popped into my mind was.
He'd say that now wouldn't he?
/Victor
You should read the book!
It isn't about him. It's about us.
Is it really so much to ask that teachers keep their genitals to themselves?
If that is what you require of a teacher, then sure, it's not too much to ask. But no one else gets to decide what qualities all teachers, ever, should have. If people always did what we wished they'd do, we'd never have opportunities to practice.
Teachers, according to Mr Cushion, should be firm and not soft, especially in themselves.
I luvs my cushion. I believe it is consensual but unreciprocated. Mr Cushion is so disciplined . . .
Yes that was my point too. If I have these doubts then he is never gonna be a teacher of mine.
If I can stear my dick better than him who is he to teach me anything? I have dismissed teachers on much less.
Once I saw a Head monk of a monastery who had been training for 50 years sit down to eat.
I could see how his eyes widened just a fraction and could hear his mouth salivating when he spoke. Just by looking at the food.
So I thought. He has spent 50 years of his life for nothing. After just 10 years I had better check on my faculties than he did.
For me the goal is awakening in this life. I do not fool around. Why would I even consider meeting or reading a book from a guy who obviously is worse at handling his asavas than me. He should be reading my books.
/Victor
My goodness, ego is alive and well, lol.
If you don't want someone as a teacher, then fine and dandy. No one is telling you otherwise that you should.
There really is no better or worse. Everyone is on a different path, including teachers. If you don't like them as a teacher, then don't study from/with them. Done. No need to rant on about your penis.
(It's a 'guy' thing....)
@karasti everything is about ego even your affirmation of recognising it in me.
And I understand that the Bodhisattva ideal is different from the Arahant ideal. So CTR might be a fine teacher for someone else. But not for my style of cultivation.
From my point of view he seems to be a fun guy that I might want to hang with over a beer but not to take any lessons from.
From my point of view he does not possess any enlightenment that I seek.
/Victor
That is fine, like I said. I just don't personally understand the point of going on and on and on about it. There are thousands of teachers I do not take on as mine. Some are just different traditions. Some have different beliefs. Some just don't speak to me. I don't focus on them though. I only worry much about who I do want to learn from, not who I don't.
Without boasting. I do get advances from women. And sometimes I am tempted but so far I have never slept with a women while having a relation with another.
And I did not need any marriage vows to keep me from it.
Just the simple knowledge that it would be hurtful to my girlfriend.
/Victor
Well, but this discussion about teachers developed in the specific context of "The Dark Side of Buddhism", though. Discussing and analyzing what can go wrong in a sangha is relevant to the topic.
Besides, I thought the anecdote about the abbott was interesting. ...oh well. :-/
I do not go on and on and on about it. I was explaining why I would never read his book. Like Chaz suggested I should. Waste of my time.
/Victor
PS
But maybe I was a tad bit over indulging in the ego there I agree.
DS
Has anyone here heard of Eisel Mazard? He's some sort of Pali specialist and Phd in I don't know what.
He keeps ranting against the corruption in Buddhism on different sites. I personally think he borders on the delusional narcissist. I don't know if he's a Buddhist or not, or whether he's paid by someone to rail against Buddhism.
I think corruption is an anavoidable feature in any organized religious structure. I'm sorry to find Buddhism is no exception, still it is a human failure, not a failure inherent to the doctrine.
In any case, I don't like how this man attacks Buddhism the way he does.
You can't allow freedom and expect them not to use it in a liberal way
"who gave them that freedom anyway?"
corruption is when someone knowingly abuses there role or status
It is, actually.
Teachers are human. They pull there pants on one leg at a time, just like you and me.
Can you keep your genitals to yourself? Indefinitely?
It's like requiring a teenager to abstain. They will, for a while. Then one day, they fall from grace.
How did you ever become a Buddhist, I wonder?
The Buddha is said to have abandoned his wife and newborn son in the middle of the night. He also bailed on his responsibility to his people as their Prince. If you won't follow someone who had sex with his students, why do you follow the teachings of someone who took a powder on both his family and his people? If you don't cut CTR any slack, how do you square the Buddha's actions?
^^^ If I had a dollar for every time I heard that, I would be a rich woman!....hahaha
It is a common comment - one I personally find kinda tedious. But if we condemn a teacher for his behavior, shouldn't the Buddha be held to the same standard?
FYI...I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole.
I don't. lol! Bob
Can you keep your genitals to yourself? Indefinitely?
Bad comparisons. Adults aren't teenagers. And yes, I can keep mine to myself indefinitely, especially in a context in which it's inappropriate to pursue a liaison (which is more to the point). It's called self-control. (It works kinda like the precepts.) If a non-celibate teacher wants a partner, he has the entire population of women outside the sangha from which to choose.
"The Buddha" didn't abandon his wife and son, "Siddhartha Gautama" did. Subtle but significant difference in that understanding. Of course we can judge (though some might say there are extenuating circumstances), but we're not judging the fully enlightened being that was known as the Buddha, and referred to himself as the Tathagata, we're judging the unenlightened younger version... in many respects a different person.
I did some bad things when I was a child, but if someone mistakenly thought I'd still do those things today, they wouldn't recognize that I'm not the person I used to be. I carry the blame, but I don't still carry the potential or will to carry out the same juvenile acts.
If any of these teachers did bad things, that's a mark of not being enlightened, not an indictment of enlightenment or truly (fully) enlightened beings being capable of such things.
No, we shouldn't judge him as Buddha, but as Siddhartha, he was not a child when he left his wife and child in search of something greater.
We can appreciate it now, but what would most here say if their partner and parent of their children just up and decided to leave on a spiritual quest?
My question at all is why the focus on the dark side? I don't mean to say to pretend things don't happen or to ignore them. But what purpose does it serve to focus on them? To judge all of Buddhism based on people who identified as such who behaved badly? To be angry?
Does we have to grow up? Nobody told me. Oh wait they did . . .
. . . and now back to the dark side dharma circus . . .