Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Dark Side of Buddhism
Victorious
Grim Veteran
I am trying to get a better picture of criticism of Buddhism on the net. I sifted through some articles and discarded the obvious Christian suspects and things that were due to misunderstandings and found this.
http://primejunta.blogspot.se/2009/11/evil-side-of-buddhism.html
Anybody have other relevant complaints or critical resources?
Any thoughts are welcome too.
Thanks.
/Victor
0
Comments
Historically it's pretty accurate but he puts a lot of personal opinion there too.
The thing that matters most is to practise discernment, evaluate intelligently and be selective in whose teaching you take on. Even the most corrupted people can say insightful things.
I came across this, but I'm not sure how up to date it is:
http://viewonbuddhism.org/controversy-controversial-teacher-group-center-questionable.html
I would suggest that criticising, introducing updated ideas or phasing out cultural absurdities or avoiding the well meaning but ignorant 'senior practitioners' is not always possible or welcome.
I am intrigued on your motivation? The links so far seemed fairly balanced. I must admit going to the more controversial groups to find out how not to practice . . . ಠ_ಠ
It is kind of similar to how I weed when gardening. Anything I recognise as a wild flower, I pull up. The gardens planted flowerings are then safe.
I've never seen a dark side of Buddhism. Although, I have seen a dark side of human beings who call themselves Buddhists.
Having been in places where the shit hit the Buddhist fan, my feeling is that without coming to terms with the underbelly of any much-beloved object or principle or spiritual practice, there is precisely no chance of discovering why the object or principle or spiritual practice might legitimately be richly beloved.
Great blog! It's important to be aware of the potential pitfalls in Buddhist sanghas, and to be discerning in selecting a sangha and a teacher. Skillful means applies to that, as to anything else.
I thought this statement was particularly valuable:
However, I do think that -- especially among many teachers and more experienced practitioners -- there's a tendency to ignore the nasty side of things, and thereby enable it.
After the Eido Shimano scandals, and so many others, practitioners are learning that it's important to speak out in the face of wrong-doing. As the Buddha pointed out, sometimes "right speech" involves blowing the whistle (I paraphrase, lol). This helps prevent others from being harmed, and is an important component in the exercise of compassion.
Lets look closer at a couple of examples that he gives about which I have personal experience..
1 ) The monk who ordained women was not 'excommunicated'.
Such a notion does not exist in Buddhism.
He broke with his parent Sangha.
Not because he ordained women, but because he did so unilaterally after refusing to conduct a proper debate with his peers, many of whom actually agreed with ordaining women, but insisted that it had to be done as a collective act.
2 ) I knew Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche rather well.
I knew him from around 1965 until just before his death.
He was my first teacher.
His behaviour was inexcusable.
The allegations are all true and then some.
For many years I could not bear to even think about him and felt completely betrayed by him.
AND , not but..he was the most awakened person I met before I met my present teacher
He was appallingly destructive to himself and others..
He was not 'nice'....and he could awaken people around him..genuinely, lastingly, with a click of his fingers.
His legacy includes some of the greatest practitioners of the day.
He did more to bring Buddhism to the west than any other five people I know..
And he was a drunk and a womaniser
How to reconcile all this ?
I cant.
He was a paradox.. And please, no trite conclusions that all we students of his were weak and brainwashed..among his hundreds of students were/are some of the most tough minded and challenging people I have ever met..
One of them said at his funeral ' I have never met anyone who did so much harm and so much good..both.'.
So, as federica says, history is not enough.
You can sing all the notes and know all the words, but not be able to sing the song.
The checklist could/should be applied to any group. Even your friends.....
Should your teacher be a hoe? No....neither should the friends you hang out with.
Should they act jealous and get off on power? Neither should your friends and lovers.
LIfe should be about doing inventory. Ask the tough questions of yourself and then of the people you hang around. Take ownership of who you choose to spend time with and get teachings from. Buddhist or otherwise.
EOS. ..
..
Sidenote: I think after all these years, I'm still surprised when other people are surprised that these things happen in the Buddha community. These are people in these buildings, you know? hahaha
I only met Trungpa Rinpoche once. He was drunk as a skunk. AND I am grateful for the no-bullshit teaching he laid on me.
@SpinyNorman Thank you for that link. Perfect! I will read it and if deemed serious enough try to spread it around.
@lobster I understand your question. My motive is to be better informed as I come across many asking for advice where to turn to in their Dhamma pursuit. And I have also come across some that have been prey to some strange teachers and Monks.
Feels like it is better to be well informed than bury the head in sand. These things will come out in today's internet world.
@Citta I am aware that a good teacher can be instrumental in awakening. And that different traditions and teachers offer different methods of practise. For my Theravadian part I would strongly refuse to believe that a teacher could make me awakened? But maybe that was not what you meant?
Thank you all for your input. Keep it coming please
.
/Victor
Some of this is outdated.
For example Traktung Rinpoche still does not endear himself to some traditional students of Buddhadharma due to his rather outspoken personality, ( he thinks both TNH and the Dalai Lama are sell-outs.)..but he is now widely accepted as genuine by many senior Nyingmapa teachers who disagree with him over these and many other issues..
And lumping Kelsang Gyatso or Sogyal Rinpoche with a mass murdering cult is frankly ridiculous.
The main problem with the former is his refusing to comply with a dictat by the Dalai Lama rather than any scandal, and allegations against the latter have never been proven.
I googled the title of @SpinyNorman's link... Now this really shocked me. I mean really? Really really?
http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2013/05/21/use-common-sense-khandro-rinpoche-about-sexual-abuse-by-buddhist-teachers-in-the-tibetan-buddhist-tradition/
It like goes on forever. I am gonna do a proper dig into the Theravada tradition! If I find out something even in the vicinity of this I am gonna be really pissed!!
This is horrendous .
/Victor
Indeed.
Then I would suggest advising them to visit those who have a good reputation for wisdom and teaching. The rest is glamour, show business and gossip. The assumption is that truth and integrity in others is important. My experience is only when I sought for this in myself did any critical discernment arise and a teacher become apparent. Hope that makes sense.
:wave:
I have never had a Teacher or Guru. Perhaps it's just as well....
It's only my personal opinion but I think I have not done too badly under my own steam.
Doubtless I may have fared better under instructions but I'm quite satisfied with how I have done so far...
Yeah. Thanks @lobster. I usually say something like that. You know I almost wish I hadn't started looking into this.
Kind of shakes my foundation a bit.
.
/Victor
Since 20 years now I have done the same. I feel like you on this. More so now than before.
Pissed? About what, humans being human?
If you dig long enough and deeply enough you'll find dirt on virtually anyone or anything. If it's fault you want to find, you'll find it.
Sometimes, I think we put people on pedestals just so we can get a rush from outrage and revel in tearing them down.
Something you might do, if you have NetFlix, is check out Crazy Wisdom. It's about Chogyam Trungpa.
Speaking of CTR, something I've found interesting is that Vajradhatu survived, grew and flourished in the wake of the scandals surrounding the Vidyadhara and the Regent
@Victorious, I used to give myself sleepless nights wondering which Tradition I should follow, what should I read, who should I listen to...
Now, I adhere principally to Theravada, but unashamedly admit I recite Mantras counting them on a Mala of my making.
If something piques my interest and/or curiosity, I investigate it, and often on forums, will closely follow a discussion or debate, "listening" to all sides, taking careful note of what resonates and delving further for my own benefit and knowledge.
Sometimes, discussions get too heavy or deep for me, but now I'm not scared, nervous or Self-conscious about admitting it.
So I don't get it. So what?
Some kind soul takes the time to lay it out for me, which improves both of us!
Over the years I feel I have developed a good, sound and yet basic understanding of what Buddhism is to me; It's a Governor, a yardstick ; I constantly check my own progress and evaluate "where I'm at" on a regular and frequent basis.
I live breathe and thrive on the simplicity of the 4, the 8 and the 5.
Once, I considered myself an inadequate and inexperienced poor apology for a Buddhist.
Now?
I just keep walking, enjoying every opportunity I get to share my sandwiches with anyone I might walk with on the way.
Cheese and pickle, or ham and mustard on rye?
@Chaz and @federica people I look up to are not supposed to be human...Right? :banghead: .
Aaargh you are right. I guess I am overreacting...
/Spock
In Thailand, monks can be permanently "defrocked", and it is not rare. Perhaps that is not exactly the same as "excommunication", but it's not far off.
In the end a lot of it comes down to temperament.
Traditional Buddhism has always had a structure which was based on Authority.
More recently ( two decades or so ) in a western context there has emerged what has been called Consensual Buddhism. This de-emphasises personal authority and puts more value on individual experience.
Which chimes more with current social views.
There are strengths in both approaches and both have limitations.
Consensual Buddhism does not and cannot work in the Vajrayana or Dzogchen for example.
But is compatible with much of Theravada.
The problem comes when those who are drawn to Consensual Buddhism use aberrations in the Buddhism of Authority to 'prove' that they are right.
Conversely those who put their trust in Authority point to the vaguery and trial-and-error of Consensual Buddhism to show the superiority of their approach.
In the end there are reasons why both exist, they both have their place and both have their adherents.
It even shapes the culture of different websites..for example Dharma Wheel is highly Authority based..New Buddhist is largely consensual.
Mutual respect might be in order. And a recognition of 'horses for courses'.
In light of all this I just remembered. Ajahn Brahm makes a good case in his "Bliss and Beyond" that Awakened beings (Arahants) are no longer able to function sexually.
Might be worth remembering.
/Victor
Well I haven't found that...
And would be, and is, totally rejected by Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachers.
Many of whom are highly Realised married men with children..
You cannot take a Theravadin view as being representative of ALL of Buddhadharma.
Anymore than you can do the reverse.
@Citta No of course not!
. Not my intention. I realized it the moment I pressed the post button.
@Citta
To get into the nitty-gritty then.
Would you consider these Arahants?
Or is their enlightenment of some other nature?
/Victor
I was hesitant to reply for a second,because I think on a pan-Buddhist site like New Buddhist its important to accentuate the positive..
No they are not Arahants.
Dzogchen, Mahamudra and the Vajrayana generally pay great respect to Arahants. But value the Bodhisattva ideal more highly.
They see Arahants as having stopped at a particular level.
@Citta I would indeed consider that positive! Then in that case there is no contradiction in what Ajahn Brahm says... I think?
/Victor
No contradiction...different goals.
Here it is for the interested. Nine ways to recognize an Arahant.
Something I remembered from "Mindfullness, Bliss and Beyond" by Ajahn Brahm.
He used AN 9.7 as reference. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.007.than.html
/Victor
@Victorious -- As a matter of curiosity, once you have recognized an "arahant," are you any better off?
@genkaku
I guess that after sotapanna it is irrelevant but...
Yes. If you were in any doubt about the path then seeing its end is of course liberating.
Also then you can judge the path by its culmination. Pretty important no? And if you want to find a good teacher maybe?
/Victor
Trust in the efficacy of your own practice. All manner of teachers are there, clears as day, within. They are the ones we really need to attend to.
If how we address all arising, living and fading phenomena in meditation is different than how we address the phenomena we call a "teacher", whether good or poor, then we are actually beckoning to sufferings cause.
A good teacher .... the right teacher ........ doesn't have to be an arhant.
This thread highlights the beauty and liberation of buddhism - If you focus on a single facet of an infinite-sided jewel, and start colouring it with ideas, you may find that you are reflecting on a particularly dark aspect, and your intent and distracted focus may cause you to miss some or all of the others.
After Sotapanna, it really is irrelevant @victorious, but not everyone is at that stage - that is just another view that is a distraction. And so it goes on... As pretty as a slug munching on a hosta... And that depends on view - perfect view may be far off, but a right view may be that that dear little slug makes your garden leaves look a little holey, but thats what the freedom of life brings.
Now where was, oh yes I was planting daffodils...
Nor does an Arahant have to be a good teacher but an Arahant is accordingly always a good teacher nevertheless.
Dude, you plant daffs in the fall. And it's best to do it in daylight. Wasn't it pretty much past sundown when you posted that?
>
@Chaz, it's always the bloody fall in England..
!
I reside in the metaphorical @Chaz... It allows me to dream withinout boundaries...
Now where was I: Oh yes - Settling Dew Droplets on Spiders Webs, and Caterpillars on Cabbages... Is it spring yet?
True enough, but the perfect teacher .... the right teacher ... and finding him/her is more a matter of karma and not a search you set out on. If it's your karma to be taught by an arhant, then that's what will happen. If it's your karma to hook up with someone like Trungpa, looking for an arhant is kinda pointless. The arhant may be able to teach you, but the perfect teacher is the one who will lead you to enlightenment.
That's why Trungpa's legacy endures through his students.
Ah! Falsehood, disguised as metaphor! I get it!
I love the Dark Side, it let me shoot these lightning bolts out of my hands, and I didn't even care that I was slowly killing my apprentice's son... oh wait nevermind. This was the dark side of "Buddhism"? Yeah I haven't really seen that, except (like someone said earlier) in the actions of some of its practitioners.
@AldrisTorvalds - wrong film This is star trek not star wars! lol
@anataman Oh! So we're talking about when Kirk got split in a transporter accident and there was a "dark side" version of him? Or was it the alternate timeline or parallel universe where the crew of the Enterprise were all evil, usually with evil beards or goatees? That was hilarious.
Oh, children....?
@federica Sowwy.
There was a evil Kirk and an Evil Enterprise? And I havent seen it? Then I have to put of enlightenment for a while I think. What season/s?
But we are children of the stars @federica, permit us this little bit of tomfoolery!
@AldrisTorvalds - No I think this one is the one where the invisible advanced alien race are performing genetic experiments on us, but we will overcome them as well!
Oh good grief...
slaps head#...
Now I know what a hash symbol does in front of text...
this...
Forget asterisks everyone!