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how do you personally feel about death and how it is related to various fear?
inyo
Explorer
It is curious how a no-fear of death does not necessarily mean a no-fear of everything. How do you feel?
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Fine. I watched my father die, and I meditate on it very frequently.
It puts other things into perspective too...
I don't fear death, but have a healthy respect for the unexpected....
Honestly, I'm really not actually afraid, or in fear, of much. There are things that cause me some stress or anxiety once in a while though. I'm not afraid of dying or what happens after I die.
Sometimes I wonder what my children's lives would be like if I died, because 2 of them already lost their father. Sometimes it makes me sad to think about missing out on their lives or my marriage (I've only been married going on 6 years) if I happened to die now, or soon. Sometimes if I am woken up by a loud noise I am momentarily afraid that someone has broken in, but it is just the shock of being woken up and it goes away after a moment.
Some say that fear in anything comes down to a fear of death. I guess that is probably true, but it can be fear of death of an idea or belief instead of a fear of death of the physical body. When I was growing up, I was afraid to fail. it was my biggest fear, letting my parents down, not achieving what I set out to achieve, for example.
Ok...I'm not sure if I fear death or the suffering that may proceed it....I'll find out when I get there.
I don't think I fear death itself because it's inevitable.
What I fear is the suffering that will lead to death (e.g., cancer, heart attack, etc.).
Practice, if I had to guess, teaches that a fear of death is just another aspect of fearing life. It's nothing special ... no reason to prance and preen and pretend there is no fear. As Gautama is alleged (in The Dhammapada) to have said, "All fear dying./All fear death."
And then there is the tale of the Zen master who was on death's doorstep. In accordance with tradition, a student asked him if he had any last words. The teacher replied, "Yes, I do. I am afraid of dying." The student could not keep the shock from his face: How could a man who had devoted so many years to the matters of birth and death suddenly be afraid?! Seeing his shock, the teacher looked sadly at his student and said, "You don't understand: I am afraid of dying really. I am really afraid of dying!"
Sometimes I feel that way too, afraid of what will happen before I die. But when I think back to difficult situations, time I have been sick or injured, or worse times my children have been really sick (one was in a life threatening situation) I realized that the anticipation of what any of those events will be like is worse than what it actually is when you deal with it. When situations arise that you have no choice but to deal with moment by moment, and you have to face them, you just do it. You have the ability and strength somehow to deal with the moments. Whereas before we arrive at them, we doubt whether we have the ability to do so. That doubt and fear is worse than having to deal with those times when they arrive, in my experience so far. Even looking back on them, they seem scarier than they were at the time that you have to summon what you need to cope. When I think about how sick our son was, I think "wow, that was really scary" but at the time, we just did what we had to do. We didn't have much time to be scared. We could only deal with what we had going on at that moment and not worry about the next, and dealing with medical emergencies, I think, is much the same any time, whether it's yourself or someone else. It's a very different frame of mind from what we operate out of in our every day lives. It's almost like time stops for you and your loved ones and everything is going on around you, but you are no longer part of it. Kind of strange.
Oh...I heard it as "I don't want to die..... I REALLY don't want to die!".... The inference ofwhich is slightly different...
I sometimes also have anxieties of the suffering before death more than death itself, but then I'm usually able to arrive at a calm state about it-it's especially helpful to practice when I'm sick or something it reminds me this may be what it's like (or ten times worse) when I'm about to die (but who knows!)
I'd love to be in the presence of someone dying, I'm still somewhat young I guess so I haven't experienced many people close to me dying. I think about death a lot though and maybe it helps prepare for when they do die.
@karasti that is a good point about the anticipation being the worst part of it! It's always the "fight" and resist that seems to cause the most pain, but when it's happening we kind of have no choice but to roll with it. It reminds me of when I recently began to faint-at first I sort of resisted it and became anxious then as things were closing out I sort of surrendered and let go.
Also, I think sometimes what we have a hard time dealing with is the sudden change of things more than the pain/suffering that come about. A huge shift in our body and mind can be scary, but then it seems like once it happens we're more calm/accepting about it.
Death is very interesting! I was looking at my loved one and thought how fragile everything is, in this moment she is here but in the next she could be gone. I'm trying to learn to sort of "say goodbye" (more of a feeling) as soon as I meet someone or acquire things. Although I'm getting a late start on it, I think it helps with fears of losing loved ones and attachment in general.
After losing our baby almost two years ago, I've had very mixed feelings about death.
I have stepped up my practice a speed or two in order to teach myself to cope with death and to teach my son to deal with the grief of losing his brother.
And though I've managed to glue back the pieces of my broken heart, I have some pangs of anxiety now and then, at the thought of losing another beloved one: my son, my mother, my husband, my brother...
Let's say I try to ignore death as much as I can, so that with a bit of luck she happens to ignore me.
oh Geez, that's really rough! That is the kind of situation I think I fear the most. I think one of the hardest things in life is letting go of loved ones-even while they are still alive. At the tiny moments when I'm able to, it definitely creates a sense of freedom and appreciation. I was listening to a monk who was explaining how we can try to not call things with "my" (such as my house, my children, my husband) and go for more like "the house, the children, the husband." It creates a sense of things just existing with or without our existence. Everything is just here for a flash of time then it is gone... and that's okay!!
If I am meant to die I will die. And if I am meant to live I will live.
@Jeffrey, I used to say basically the same thing but then I started wondering what exactly "meant" even means in that context. It always (to me) seemed to imply something holds my destiny other than me, and controls when/whether I live or die. To you, what does it mean to include the word "meant" in your statement? Just curious what your thoughts are.
It's almost similar to "It's God's will." I know so many people who are always thanking God for saving them or their loved one, without any apparent connection made that saying God spared your loved one, but let others die, insinuates some interesting things.
@karasti, for me 'meant' means that it is outside of my control. I've got a cold and not so insightful today. It just means that death may come today and without warning.
@federica -- Your memory is probably better than mine though the implications strike me as being about on a par.
There is a common view that having fear represents some lack of understanding or a lack of a serious practice.
It is no more true for fear than it is for any phenomena that we meet.
It is just something else (like death) to not micro manage.
A meditation practice does not make you fearless........, just a possible meditative observer of fears arising, living and passing.
I'd like to think that death holds no fear for me, but like every other moment of attention...I think I'll take a wait and see position.
>
Could be. May not be. It's debatable...
Kia Ora,
I like what the 15th century French philosopher Michel de Montaigne had to say about fear:
Those who fear they shall suffer-already suffer what they fear !
It would seem one can get to the stage of not having fear about ones own death, ie, experiencing the break down of anatta firsthand, but be burdened by the arising of a self that still finds it somewhat difficult not to have fear of those close to them dying..I guess one would call this the remnants of Upādāna (attachment-clinging grasping etc)...
To shed a little light on the darkness of death...
Exchange between the Zen master and his student:
Student: What happens after death?
Master: I don’t know.
Student: How can you not know? You are a Zen master.
Master: Yes, but I’m not a dead one.
Metta Shoshin
My mother was clinically dead for 15 mins before being rescusitated. Her experience gives me no fear of actually dying. But the process worries me. I don't want to experience any pain during it (my mother didn't but I think everyone's experience is different). I'll find out soon enough though. I'm using the time I have left to try to ensure that when I go, I can aim for a better rebirth if I have to stay in the cycle of samsara.
@dhammachick
I really admire and respect how you talk about death. Some of your posts stand in such strength that it could help others in their fears.
_/ _
Thanks @Vastmind
I think, well, I know that I have been able to form a lot of my views by spending time with you all here. Often we don't stop to think about how we impact others. But I am very grateful to everyone here - even the ones I butt heads with - for sharing a common topic with me (Buddhism). It has carried over into my day to day life and for that I will be forever grateful.
Much metta
Some things are more important than our lives therefore they present us with a greater fear than the loss of our life.
I tend to think I would not fear death and have faced it before with acceptance. Has something changed in me since then that I am unaware of? I am not certain.
@grayman that's a good point. Death is always looked at as the greatest fear but I also think it's possible to fear other things more, then again do you think all fear is rooted in fear of death?
Also, I've noticed that when I can completely overcome a fear of something then my other fears aren't so big- it's interesting how they're all kinda connected.
I would fear being tortured or in prison more than death.
@federica -- I'll bring the beer, you bring the chips and we'll ... uh ... debate.
I wouldn't say I'm afraid of death. But that doesn't mean that the loss that comes with it can't be excruciating. However, I wouldn't want to avoid that either.
When I think about my grandpa's death, what made it the most difficult was knowing I would never physically be around him ever again, and that the rest of my family would be grieving. I tried to suppress my sadness with platitudes about the normality of death, but it felt very wrong. Letting the sadness, despair, grief, confusion, anger, etc all come and go was much more soothing than trying to be some stoic Buddhist master.
I've always found solace in dealing with grieving over death in DNA, really, lol. They cliched saying of "they are always with you" can mean so much more than simply remembering them. Most of my grandparents are gone, but I carry part of their DNA with me, and there is increasing evidence that our DNA even carries memories. When my children miss their father, I show them in their photos where I see their dad, in their noses, in how they stand, in how they smile, and so on. There really is no loss. TNH I think told a great story about his mother and her death along the same lines. Sure we still miss the conversations and the hugs and their physical presence but they really are always with us. Literally. Other people become part of who we are.
I think our own life is the top of the tier for all our selfish desires; also some selfless desires...
If you have kids, your life can be important for sustaining them. This can make your death harder to accept.
I don't see life as an important thing but as container for what we put in it. What good is an empty container?
Fear is just the idea that what you find important may be destroyed.
Holding onto fear is pointless due to the fact that what will happen will happen regardless of holding onto your fear. For me fear is simply a slight warning to what may occur. A little voice saying pay attention! It is not something that needs to be suffered.
One thing I do fear, is wasting time, worrying about dying well, when it's actually far more important to live well, now....
Everybody dies so why worry?
Dying right now is not an option since I have childern. And I plan on living until 150 but...
I recently learned that a cousin on my fathers side died of a muscle disease around 60 years of age and my half brother is around 65 and thinning fast out of some illness the doctors cannot find and our mutual father died around 60 out of a still undiagnosed illness.
So I guess every year above 65 is a gift for me.
. But my children will be more than grown and flown by then so...its cool.
Just hope I make it to Arahant.
.
/Victor
I think the fear of death comes with clinging to ones self or to others. If I finally realise their is no self then there is nothing to fear.
Until that point I can't help it
What does help is that I believe when I die there is no more experience so that's not a bad thing.
Safe travels!
@karasti that's so true, I'm trying to remember that my loved ones are with me while they are alive still also, in the same way they would be if they were dead. I think it's important to look at things that way, maybe to see the thing that does actually last, like some underlying true aspect or something.
One cannot know death until one is dead (and then who knows.....). While alive, when one fears death, one is made afraid by one's own thinking.