Belief and Faith in Buddhism
I am just throwing this out for light discussion. I have reached a stage on my personal path, where I can say that I have faith in the teachings of the buddha. Now, I'm not talking about all the dressing up and down and parleying that goes on, I'm talking about your personal investigation and the revealed insights gained from personal experience. Has your practice of meditation and understanding of dharma and doctrine as applied to your path held up in a way that makes your belief dissolve into unshakable faith. I have emphasised these words as they are not the same thing, and an educated person I was speaking to did not understand the difference until I pointed it out to them...
I know that some of you will have taken vows and precepts etc. so assume you have that faith, or am I wrong? Do you have reservations about aspects of buddhism?
Comments
I believe that Buddha was one of the paramount teachers of wisdom and morality in the history of mankind. His teachings are infused with wisdom. Therefore, I will "listen" to what he has to say on every topic on which he spoke. However, that does not mean that I believe he was "all seeing" or "all knowing".
The Zen teacher Rinzai once said, "Grasp and use, but never name." The line sounds kind of Zen-sexy, but when it comes to Buddhism, it about sums up my feelings: Use it when it's useful; no need to flog a dead horse.
I read a scary thing in the Majhima Nikaya (sp?) once where the Buddha said (I paraphrase): "Whoever says that the Tathagata just reasoned this stuff out, out of his own mind, hammered it out by reasoning without direct experience, will surely fall into hell." Why does EVERY religion have to be so scary? But maybe this is another discussion....
Remember the hell-realm is not permanent. None of them are. What he meant was that basically, spreading false rumours and dissing the Buddha was the work of someone who clearly had no intention of improving themselves.... so they weren't going to get very far in life.
Quite true, actually....
KIa Ora,
I like the tightrope walker story about 'faith & belief'
"There was a tightrope walker, who was so good that he
could walk between two twenty stories building on a
tight rope with a balancing pole. Thousands of people
would watch him perform his breathtaking feat. After
he walked across the building he would have his
assistant sit on his shoulder and he would proceed to
walk across the building. Everybody were amazed and
gave him a thunderous applause. He asked them whether
they believed that he could do it again. The crowd
said, “Yes, we believe that you can!” After a while he
asked the crowd again, “Now, who wants to volunteer to
get on my shoulder?” With that the crowd became
silent!"
There is a difference between Belief and Faith. We
can believe what we see. In the above story, the crowd
believed in the tightrope walker because they saw him
perform the feat. But when he asked them “Who wants to
get on my shoulder?” everyone was silent. You see, the
crowd had Belief but they did not have Faith. This
story clearly illustrates the difference between
belief and having faith !
Metta Shoshin
Faith means you know you are entangled in samsara, trapped by karma, into a impermanent life, and you must practice NOW before you die.
On the cessation of suffering, my confidence has increased greatly over the years as I've noticed a gradual lessening of my own "dukkha". I call it confidence instead of faith because faith is used in different ways (especially in regards to faith-based religions, which Buddhism isn't, at least to me).
It's not a carte-blanche confidence though. It's confidence in the Four Noble Truths, in karma as it applies to dukkha and the Path, in the impermanent / selfless / dependently co-arisen reality that the Buddha described... and that becomes more and more clear to me.
There hasn't been any confidence gain in the supernatural bits. The Buddha being right about suffering and its cessation doesn't mean the Buddha was right about everything, and it would be nigh on making the Buddha a god to say he couldn't have been wrong on other issues. Time will tell though. Always keep an open, but skeptical, mind!
I didnt have faith until a near 4 years after my initial refuge and precepts.
My practice has proven the buddha spot on the money so far, so now im at the point where i have enough confidence to wonder... Well if he was right about all this, why not the rest?
Im most likely pretty far from the unshakable faith of a stream winner, but its enough to want to devote the rest of my life to practicing what this guy near 3000 years ago taught us.
I hve found that if my 'faith' has been shaken - it's me doing the shaking, not Buddhism.
I have what I would describe as an unshakable faith in the teachings of the Buddha, simply because putting his teachings into practice has made such a profound difference in the quality of my life, especially in the areas of acceptance and resilience.
If a person's faith in Buddhism is shaken, either they did not understand the Buddha correctly, or they have unreal expectations of what life should be.
@AldrisTorvalds
Yeeeees?
@federica I don't want to derail discussion here, but about the hell realms... Don't some Buddhists believe in them as actual places you will go to upon rebirth? Like the animal realm? Or are the hell realms always just a mindstate/environment type thing?
Bit of both, really. A lot of Buddhists take them literally. Many see them as representative....
I personally am of the opinion that not only are they allegorical, and actually a pictographic representation of Mind-States, but that we all of us, probably visit each one of them, daily. Probably more than once, too!
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The secret is to be in 'the right one' at the critical moment....
@AldrisTorvalds - nothing, I thought about it and deleted the bits that were not relevant to the discussion... Hey haven't I replied to you in this way before - must have been a dream! ... \ lol / ...
@zombiegirl some buddhists think many things, but as the person who initiated this thread, I have to say I am of the understanding whereby, as we only reside in the present moment, the bhavhacakra can only relate to present experience as a state of mind or consciousness. That being so, if you are blissfully happy, you are in the God realm or blissful state, but if you are thirsting for something its probably the Preta realm you are residing in; being blissfully ignorant is an animal realm state. I know I'm being a little bit forward here, but where are you in the cycle?
from your perspective!
@anataman I thought the quote function messed up or something, since you had my name but no content, LOL.
Yes, pretty much. Admitting that is a big deal to me. I knew my faith was strong, but yeah, it's about as strong as it gets when it comes to faith in the teachings.
I have had some actual realisations after beginning meditation. They boost my belief in the teachings!
I have heard the term unshakable thrown around, I would put this into a realisation whereby absolutely nothing would ever let me believe there is doubt.
If I realise satori, nirvana nibbana. Then I will be unshakable. That is the Buddhas teaching. The cessation of suffering.
Don't get me wrong I have faith so far! And it's strong! Unshakable? Not yet
I think unshakeable is approached by realizing that when we get away from the dharma the world lets us know somehow. For example something upsetting can happen and we realize that we have forgotten the practice.
Re: what dharmamom said: "If a person's faith in Buddhism is shaken, either they did not understand the Buddha correctly, or they have unreal expectations of what life should be." I'm a new (kind of) Buddhist… must be doing this for a reason. But I'm wondering if I couldn't say exactly the same thing about my former faith: "If my faith in Christianity is shaken, either I did not understand Christ correctly, or I had unreal expectations of life." I think that would be pretty on the money. It might be a little trite, or even ridiculous, like… hey, having problems in life?! Get a new religion! Just questioning myself. Mega.
P.S. I like the tightrope walk analogy.
Actually a very astute observation.
Thank you, vinlyn.
Kia Ora,
Sensei Sevan Ross, director of the Chicago Zen Center,
"Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual journey. This act is real spiritual practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place."
I once had great faith and great doubt in equal measure and would beat about the bush so to speak, but now I've let go of the walking stick , my faith in the Dharma is experience-based (not blind in anyway), and just grows and grows, of which now I'm at the stage of just going with the flow no longer having to follow the yellow brick road... (OK I still on the odd occasion bump into things, but this is to be expected) .
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A Belief in, was the great determination I needed to proceed...
Metta Shoshin
I have faith in Buddhism because i know why it works & how it works, & I've also learn't why it ends our personal suffering..So as i did the mindfulness + emotions & feelings control practice over say 6 months i actually noticed a shift in my thinking, & my negative thoughts got less & less & now have gone completely..Nothing happened over night for me, & it was a daily process of distracting negative thoughts with mindfulness training..Also i used every chance i could get to practice emotions & feelings control practice, & obviously i practiced that whenever i found myself in a stressful situation..So in my opinion Buddhism is about doing the logical thing over & over again, & to try to resist negative thoughts which will weaken our emotional mind..In the end we end up with a neutral logical thinking mind, that decides whether or not an emotion or feeling is appropriate at any given time..I don't what to sound big headed when i say i learn't it, because all i did was enough training until it became obvious..
How does it 'feel' to no longer have feelings?
What I said might apply to Christianity or to any other religion, I guess.
The acid test to any religion comes when the follower goes through real problems in life and either his religion helps him weather them effectively or fails him miserably to surmount the pain.
I can't be sure because Christianity has never appealed to me and the belief in a God has never taken me far with my problems.
With Buddhism, instead, I have found a logical system that I have applied time and again in my life and has never failed me.
Whatever I do, the 4NT and the N8P give me the feeling that I am at the helm of my own life and that I am responsible for the choices I make about it everyday. I learn to accept my role in the bigger interconnection machinery and accept things as they really are.
Speaking from a purely personal PoV, and not wishing to put any words in anyone else's mouth, the criteria described by @dharmamom
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...would be one of the several reasons I switched from Catholicism to Buddhism.
My point exactly. I grew up in a Catholic family and Catholic school but never actually fit the bill.
Oh good. Tell us how karma works.
@Daveadams that is a rather bold statement and @vinlyn has a point, but a point is nothing without a statement, and a statement implies there is an opposite, and the contrast makes realisation possible. So I guess you are right in your view.
So, to begin with the opposing view - you do not and cannot know anything when you state something. So when I look at my statements, or premises - they are nothing. However, there is a distinction between me stating they are nothing and them being nothing. But both relate to the same thing... And both result in something, which arises because there is nothing..
This is not bullshit; I prefer to call it philosophical bullshit, but it gets the point across, I hope. And what's really great - is someone will see the wholes in all of this.
I still have emotions & feelings jeffrey, the difference now is that i decide when to use them not my emotional mind..The training shows us that we manifest all of our emotions & feelings, & it also shows clearly that we're not to be identified with our mind..So i can manifest what ever emotion or feeling is logical at the time, but i no longer manifest unwanted negative emotions & feelings..It's not possible to manifest unwanted emotions & feelings, not once we realize we cause them ourselves.
Do not distinguish between you' and your 'emotional mind'.
There's a mistake right there.
Because you are not separate from yourself. You and your Mind are one and the same; that is, you are in control; there is no separate 'Emotional Mind' to decide anything....
It is also the end of bad karma because if a person always does the logical thing, then the logical thing is always the right thing....It's never logical to do the wrong thing, because it hurts others & ourselves..So the logical thing to do, is always the right thing to do....So if we always do the logical right thing because we now have a logical neutral thinking mind, all we can ever create is good karma....It's also the end of all previous bad karma, because that was all done by our emotional mind that we we're unaware of at the time..We all get tempted & tested over the years, & we're all expected to create some bad karma before & as we learn about ourselves..So we all have to have done the wrong thing/things at some point, in order to learn not to do it in the future..
It depends what you mean by logical.
Yes, in many situations there is not only 1 logical path to follow.
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That's utter BS, if you'll pardon the bluntness.
Every 'Right and Logical' thing you decide to do, has a definite and inevitable negative impact on something or someone else.
Read that again.
It's unavoidable, and to say that only wrong things hurt others and ourselves, is under scrutiny, not always accurate. Wise compassion, for example, can sometimes be very painful to administer. it may be right - but it is also likely to bang someone round the chops like a cast-iron skillet.
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Possibly, in the immediate sense, this may be correct. But it pays to step back and look at the bigger picture. How will this decision impact matter in the long run?
And if your mind is in 'neutral' then your decisions will be neutral.
You need to develop benign Awareness, and never remain in neutral!
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Not so. you cannot presume to say that this is the end of all previous bad karma.
How would you know?
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No shit Sherlock... :rolleyes: .
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How can doing the right & good thing for myself & others, have a definite negative impact on something or someone else..You can state that with no proof, but i can't say it's the end of bad karma albeit with no proof myself..I'm not swayed anymore into making decisions by my emotional negative mind & i don't actually hear from it anymore, but I'm not stuck in the neutral zone....I will say that if a person does the mindfulness + emotions & feelings control practice they will probably enter the neutral zone at some point if their not aware of it, & some people have called this the "death of their ego"..What those people don't realize is that the neutral zone is another trick of the emotional mind, & i have been through the neutral zone & out the other side of it as i trained..My mother who lost her husband (my step father) around 9 months ago is stuck in the neutral zone, She's got over the loss & done the grieving, but now is completely emotionally neutral & has no desires or ambitions to do anything..At the same time she's not depressed, just completely neutral....In my opinion our mind is supposed to be logical & neutral & there to observe our real i, & it's only there to be referred to when needed for ideas & problem solving & for looking back etc..So we should be able to function & do stuff without using our mind, & if & when we hit a problem we access our mind for help..It's also there to store all of our memories, but it's not there for a running commentary....Would you at least agree that we are not our mind, & proof of that is we can never enter the real present moment unless in a state of no thought....So no thought is the real i's perspective, whilst thought is the emotional minds perspective or our ego if you like.
I couldn't watch the spock vids but imagine Dr Spock, only imagine what he would be like if he had emotions & feelings he could use if he wanted to..Dr Spock wouldn't ever look back with regret, because it's not logical Jim..He wouldn't fear the future, because again that's not logical..He wouldn't ever take offence, because he'd know where offence comes from..So after a lot of training it is clear to me that we manifest all of our own emotions & feelings ourselves, & it's never other people or circumstances that cause our unwanted emotions & feelings..Spock if he was human would be considered emotionally neutral with no feelings, & that's the danger of the neutral zone when training....As long as a person uses logic when entering the neutral zone, they will see what's happening & pass through..My mother can't see it yet & she will have to see it herself, all i can do is to try to coax her out from it..I have to keep trying to get her logical mind to see something, & try to gain it's interest by finding her things she'd love to do..I would say that doing things we love doing is the most logical thing any of us could be doing, but how many can actually do that?..That's what's wrong with the world everybody seems to be chasing money possessions fame & power, & so most are chasing nothing at all.
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Oh no... I do have proof.
Give me any situation where you have chosen to do something to generate good kamma for yourself, involving others, and i will show you....
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The emotional mind is your own mind which has emotions acting upon it. Emotional Mind is not separate. it's all you...
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I would be willing to bet a pound to a pinch of spice that she is in some form of depression. My mother lost my father in 2010. She is in a same situation, but trust me - it's silent, under-the-surface depression. It's there. Just because she is inactive emotionally, doesn't mean she is devoid of them.
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...What 'real I'...?
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You're talking Bull.
Mind and presence in the current moment - total awareness - is vital in order to Practice.
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Which are invariably false...
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No.
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I think you need to do some more studying on co-dependent arising, and Self/Not-Self....
Personally, I feel that the faith required in Buddhism (and we're not talking Pure Land, I suppose) is different than the faith asked for in theistic religions. There's a bit less "surrender" required to have faith in the Buddha's teachings.
I feel that faith in theistic traditions is more about ending the reliance on oneself and developing greater reliance on the Greater Power.
That's not to say that "surrender" and de-emphasizing egocentrism aren't aspects of Buddhist practice though (that would be a silly statement), just not an element of faith.
I would say I have confidence that dharma can lead us through deluded thinking, intellectual or other pointless mental masterbation.
Crazy wisdom does not gibber without purpose and 'insight' that is flawed is easily apparent . . . perhaps not when we are attached to our [insert present mind] . . .
. . . and now back to faith and belief . . . or not . . .
:wave: .
First, can I say that mental masterbation, is a turn on for some people, it's called fantasy. I have my own little fantasies, and no one is going to take them away, thank you very much - and at the very least such fantasies suggest you love your own mind enough to let it 'come' with you on this journey. ... \ lol / ... Sorry, that was a little lewd, but most certainly not deluded.
Can you expand a little on your statements referring to: 1. 'deluded thinking' and 2. 'insight that is flawed is easily apparent' @lobster. I do like your posts, but there are times when I am left feeling, that I've just been evicted from the World Cup, and yes I may have lost a couple of games but there was a very small chance I could still get through and win; and the next thing I know I'm out, not because of anything I have said and done, but someone else's effort superseded mine, and they made such a great effort they deserved and scored a goal, and are grinning like a cheshire cat. That's one-up-man-ship, if you don't mind me being politely crude.
The point I am making here: anyone that has pushed knowledge to its boundaries, knows it's limits, but attempting to appear to have gone beyond it's limits, looks limited - now I know I'm right on this one, and I suppose, in fact I have answered statement number 2., why because I've p[layed that card a few times, and the responses speak volumes, so don't bother replying in riddle-speak, unless you have something really serious and knowledgeable to add to it; but what about statement number 1 'deluded thinking' - care to expand on that a little? I refer to your statement: Crazy wisdom does not gibber without purpose and 'insight' that is flawed is easily apparent . . . perhaps not when we are attached to our [insert present mind] . . .. . . and now back to faith and belief . . . or not . . .
I get what you are saying :rarr: lol, but are you trying to teach me something, I need a bit more insight and wisdom from you if that is a correct assumption.
Back to my faith in the dharma - the method, that describes my actions and consequences.
@Daveadams: Excuse me but do you think you could do something about your syntax?
Every time I try to read you, I don't know if it is James Joyce or Virginia Woolf.
It's one endless outpouring of undistinguishable stream of consciousness. Very hard to read, at least for me.
Breaking a post up into digestible paragraphs is not only easier on the eye, but actually encourages more readership.
An awful lot of people skip what might well be an informative, interesting and thought-provoking contribution because either they just can't make their way through the block of text, or it's a case of "TL;DR".
Brevity is the Soul of Wit.
There is another forum in which attempted perusal of some posts actually leaves me literally nauseated....
It's the same with copying and pasting huge excerpts of texts, suttas, teachings or articles. After a while, if I have to scroll for over half of my screen - forget it.
You've lost my interest.
Abbreviate it, and put 'please read more, here' (adding the link, naturally)....
I feel that faith in theistic traditions is more about ending the reliance on oneself and developing greater reliance on the Greater Power.
My feelings exactly. In theistic religions, it's like you give away your personal power and trust God will see to you.
In Buddhism, you take responsibility for your life and you are the one making your own changes happen.
Depends on which Christians you listen to and whether they focus on the Old or New Testaments.
Most 'Christians' focus on the NT. I find old-school Christians (and we're talking not only tradition, but chronology!) tend to also rely on the OT.
I personally find that the trend towards exclusive NT focus, has been gradually increasing over the past 20 years. At least, I'm speaking specifically from the PoV of a British christian community....
@Daveadams
What do you mean by manifesting an emotion? Do you mean something like "bringing the emotion into the world"? Because if I notice I'm getting angry, then I'm already bringing this emotion into the world, it seems it's already too late to "not manifest anger". Of course, I can use mindfulness to recognize what is happening, and do something to let the anger dissipate, but maybe what you are getting at is something else?