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Who or what becomes enlightened ?
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
Kia Ora,
So when it comes to enlightenment who or what is it that becomes enlightened ?
I've heard people say things like that "This teacher is enlightened or that teacher is enlightened" but others might disagree....
How does one 'know' when somebody else is enlightened ?
And if you feel another is enlightened, why is it not everybody will agree with your personal finding ?
And finally...................
What's wrong with this sentence "I" am enlightened !"
When responding to the above please remember your Dharma practice when it comes to disagreements and the like, thank you for your cooperation in advance...
Metta Shoshin 
The unenlightened one ....
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Comments
the citta becomes enlightened. It is awful karma (according to my text) to say you have realizations that you do not have. White lies are not as bad as dark lies but lying about your realization is very bad karma according to my text.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citta
You have to become one, just to know it for sure
By the way, ancient text, teachings and teachers "may" help on the way.
Kia Ora @Jeffrey,
Before this gets blown all out of proportion I should clarify that I'm not saying that **"I" am **enlightened (as in me Shoshin) I'm saying what is wrong with this statement... here's a clue "I"
Metta Shoshin
Kia Ora @kavee,
But who or what is it that knows for sure ? Therein lies the paradox.... .
..
Metta Shoshin
"Mind". With delusion and craving there is suffering. Without... not.
@Shoshin I never thought you were lying about realizations. But it is good if you are not doing that!!
Last year I became enlightened. Oh yeah baby! The responses to this situation were bemusing and illustrative and as expected. This year I became unenlightened, which caused practically no response. The reason for this is very simple. Even the ignorant are experts on another's internal state. However if we state our ignorance nobody feels threatened. Next year I may become a Buddha or anti-buddha, that should be fun . . .
The answer to your question can only be answered by your interior knowing. :wave: .
Not really. There a clearly laid out path, which interns constitutes Buddhism. The tool is Meditation. If you do not take the path and just meditate, you can end-up anywhere other than the goal. There are many books written by Monks, and also the ancient text (translated to english) is there if one has time and energy to engage.
For those who do not open their eyes to ancient text, practice, or believes, then the journey will become much more paradoxical. After all there should be somewhere to start, isn't it.
We humans have a mad rush for everything. Its annoying when ancient text says meditation must be practiced continuously and probably it will be a gradual journey towards the enlightenment over few lifetimes. We think that's wrong, and we can do it tomorrow if we put our mind to it today. That may be the case for some but not everybody.
Ok, if there is anyone who hasn't hear this story here goes...the rest can put the kettle on..
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche..
" We see ourselves Enlightened, on a floodlit stage sometime in the future..
We are surrounded by adoring disciples hanging on our words...
There are a few things wrong with this little scene
The main one being that when Enlightenment happens WE won't be there.."
Kia Ora.
"Those who know don't say and those who say don't know !"
A Zen Koan " Anything you know about can not be you!"
So who knows...."I" don't know and never will know and that's for sure....
Metta Shoshin
IMO, one does not become enlightened. But enlightenment can be experienced as an impermanent phenomenon. As for the sentence,"I am enlightened.", I would ask before questioning what it is to be enlightened to first find the "I" who would be enlightened.
Diamond Sutra
Chapter 9.
Buddha then asked, "What do you think, Subhuti, does one who has entered the stream which flows to Enlightenment, say 'I have entered the stream'?"
"No, Buddha", Subhuti replied. "A true disciple entering the stream would not think of themselves as a separate person that could be entering anything. Only that disciple who does not differentiate themselves from others, who has no regard for name, shape, sound, odor, taste, touch or for any quality can truly be called a disciple who has entered the stream."
Buddha continued, "Does a disciple who is subject to only one more rebirth say to himself, 'I am entitled to the honors and rewards of a Once-to-be-reborn.'?"
"No, Lord. 'Once-to-be-reborn' is only a name. There is no passing away, or coming into, existence. Only one who realizes this can really be called a disciple."
"Subhuti, does a venerable One who will never more be reborn as a mortal say to himself, 'I am entitled to the honor and rewards of a Non-returner.'?"
"No, Perfectly Enlightened One. A 'Non-returner' is merely a name. There is actually no one returning and no one not-returning."
"Tell me, Subhuti. Does a Buddha say to himself, 'I have obtained Perfect Enlightenment.'?"
"No, lord. There is no such thing as Perfect Enlightenment to obtain. If a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha were to say to himself, 'I am enlightened' he would be admitting there is an individual person, a separate self and personality, and would therefore not be a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha."
Subhuti then said, "Most Honored One! You have said that I, Subhuti, excel amongst thy disciples in knowing the bliss of Enlightenment, in being perfectly content in seclusion, and in being free from all passions. Yet I do not say to myself that I am so, for if I ever thought of myself as such then it would not be true that I escaped ego delusion. I know that in truth there is no Subhuti and therefore Subhuti abides nowhere, that he neither knows nor does he not know bliss, and that he is neither free from nor enslaved by his passions."
Hee. Boy, @Shoshin knows how to ask the tough questions.
Isn't the term Enlightenment and what it means and the debate about who is and isn't a wonderful Catch-22? On the one hand, we're told our goal is to be enlightened, but on the other, anyone who considers themselves enlightened or claims to be is told they're deluded, because enlightened people are supposed to be beyond such claims. But obviously there are enlightened people, starting with Buddha and including whatever Masters your school honors. Even if those Masters tell you they're nobody special. And so it goes.
Enlightenment used to mean something specific back in the early Sangha, in the era when someone was supposed to break through into Arahant status by erasing all desires and defilements from his mind. Just how this monk was tested or given the official seal of approval isn't clear, but what is clear from the records is that these Enlightened monks showed plenty of jealousy and even bigotry in spite of their status. Enlightenment back then had nothing to do with compassion and everything to do with discipline.
And the belief in enlightenment struggled against the No-self or Emptiness teaching that developed later. Monks came to blows over the argument about what all this means. The question, "What is being enlightened" was finally embraced and is at the heart of Chan or Zen. We don't talk in terms of being enlightened, usually. We use terms like "Realize one's Buddha Nature", as if that actually tells us anything important.
You'll notice in all this, I never answered the question @Shoshin asked. So here goes.
What is being enlightened?
I don't know.
The fact that it can't be compressed into words is why we are here, trying to express the inexpressible, eff the ineffable, argue the inarguable, posit the impossible, dream the awakened...
It's hard to speak in sure terms but my guess is that which is not separate from the Buddha. Sidhartha did not become enlightened but Buddha awoke within him and there was enlightenment.
To me, enlightenment means to be seen whereas awakening is to see clearly.
Because when we know somebody is enlightened, we can see their truth. If another cannot see the truth in their words, they will not find them enlightening.
It smells of separation and reveals that one sees truth in their own words and we all know the mind deceives us given a chance... We are enlightened could sound better to me though it is an incomplete truth in my opinion.
I think our future truth is that we are now awake.
Kia Ora,
What as 'perception' got to do with enlightenment, umm I wonder ? . :wave: ..
Metta Shoshin
A visiting Zen student asked Ajahn Chah, "How old are you? Do you live here all year round?" "I live nowhere," he replied. "There is no place you can find me. I have no age. To have age, you must exist, and to think you exist is already a problem. Don't make problems; then the world has none either. Don't make a self. There's nothing more to say."
http://www.hsuyun.org/features1/inspirational/589-noajahnchah.html
You have this teacher in front of you who seems to be very wise, whose actions are consistent with his words, who is not swayed by the good and the bad things that take place in his life, who is the embodiment of a bodhisattva, who has cessation of suffering more or less down pat, and you can surmise he is enlightened.
The final proof that he's enlightened will be that he won't give a devil about the concept of "enlightenment."
I'm not sure we come across enlightened people very often, if ever, anyway.
We're probably one insight away from enlightenment, but the word is too high-sounding.
The above said applies to your own person. As soon as you say "I'm enlightened," chances are you aren't.
As with anything else, people don't need to agree with you simply because we all have different opinions about things and won't necessarily see things the way you see them.
Nobody becomes enlightened. Your true self just becomes the foreground rather than the background. My guess anyway
Kia Ora @Earthninja,
It's interesting you should mention this, I read somewhere the following (well it went something along these lines)
" Ultimate/Absolute reality can be liken to; the ongoing background music some tuned-in people listen to as they interact in/with the conventional world !"
No doubt many members here especially experienced meditators-( being "mindful" on and off the cushion ) can relate to the above...
Metta Shoshin
Nothing becomes anything.
The emptiness, the knowing, gnosis, grace, fana, becomes apparent. There has to be a degree of stillness for the unmanifest to become apparent. That is why we can experience enlightenment and it will usually transform the unprepared ego quite radically often leading to premature declarations of divinity, enlightenment, prophethood or similar egoic distortions. In one sense it is overwhelming. The reason we practice is to avoid the potential to be overwhelmed or unbalanced. In another valid description it is like a rose or lotus opening. This opening can be partially denied, ignored or closed again. It also can be (as when one has a glimpse) inspiration for further practice. Once stabilised, it is of no consequence but tends to alter every aspect of ones nature. You can believe that or what others report.
What people believe, faithfully imagine, or co-conspire with reputed teachers is not the same as interior knowing. It is not uncommon for whole Sanghas to have no enlightened beings but enlightened visitors. It is not uncommon for people to trust teachers who have books, reputation and disciples but who are still asleep. We might say they are sleep walking in the right direction.
When you are awake, sleep walkers and those awake become apparent.
My suggestion for what it is worth is to look for qualities and attributes in a teacher and students. Those attributes might include kindness, patience, wisdom and according to Mr Cushion a lot of changeable covers . . .
mazel tov
http://www.aish.com/sp/48w/?tab=y
Kia Ora @lobster,
This one simple sentence sums it all up...
Metta Shoshin .
..
May all with the potential awaken to fruition.
@Shoshin
it's simpler than that: Something (boundary) nothing
Who becomes enlightened? Not me! lol! Bob
A causally-linked pocket of universe, where awareness has arisen, ceases to experience or create "suffering'. Something like that.
I THINK PEOPLE HAVE TO STOP THINKING THAT ENLIGHTENMENT IS SOMETHING MORE THAN IT IS.
It's just an awakening.
You have always been awake, you just didn't realise it or whatever; you were distracted by something or other, or you were asleep, and if you continue to sleep this means nought... lol
i.e. you are awake NOW so what is happening.
?
@anatman, you know you are not awake if you are suffering.
However it is possible to be suffering without knowing it.
No @Jeffrey, that is wrong from my perspective. Stop thinking you are 'asleep' and dreaming, that happens when you sleep and have a dream, sometimes you recognise it, most of the time you don't.
Enlightenment is not some phantasmagorical experience where the illusion of reality shimmers, fades and WHAT disappears to reveal WHAT... Well it may be for some, so I'll not make such a brash statement. What kind of illusory joke would that be? It is merely a subtle transformation of your consciousness so that you see things as they are; an illusion, and therefore you can learn not to cling to it because it is frustrating to do so - and the purpose of buddhas teachings was what?
You are currently awake and dreaming the divine dream. Well done! Realise it, Recollect, and Remember or forget. But don't cling to it as something that you can take with you forever - and so suffering can cease if you can let it go.
So are you saying there is suffering for an enlightened person?
Also thanks for your warning about the divine dream. Adyashanti was having an interview conducted by a Buddhist interviewer and relayed his experience after years and years of meditating. The interviewer remarked that she had experienced it too and her teacher called it the divine coma.
@Jeffrey, yes even an enlightened person continues to know suffering; but they don't fall for the ol' "twin arrow" crap.....
Kia Ora @Jeffrey,
The physical body may still suffer the wear and tear of existence, but not the enlightened mind ie, no "sufferer" ...(Well this is what "I" take it to mean- but as usual "I" could be wrong)
Metta Shoshin .
..