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Is "Enlightenment" the correct term for obtaining Nirvana (in Theravada tradition)
kavee
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What's your thoughts about this?
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Enlightenment, Awakening, Nibbana, all good. All referring to the cessation of suffering.
It's really not an attainment, or that's a bad way of thinking about it, but rather a change in perspective and amount of suffering (no longer ignorant about reality or acting unskillfully).
It could be called "the loss of ignorance and suffering" to keep it as selfless as possible (instead of thinking in terms of gain or attainment).
That is a good point @AldrisTorvalds. Just go back to the 4NT.
There is duhkha
There is a cause of Duhkha
There can be an end to it.
This is how it's done
Nothing about enlightenment there, but it's a hell of a wake up call!
@anataman "There can be an end to it.", aka "Nirvana", is what enlightenment is/means. So there is something about enlightenment there, it's just not using that word (Enlightenment is a common translation of Nirvana, instead of a literal translation as "Cessation (of suffering)", which is a bit unwieldy).
I'm not sure... I've always been more partial to awakening over enlightenment but they may mean the same thing. I think enlightenment comes from being shown something whereas awakening happens from seeing the truth within. Maybe they happen in conjunction but I don't feel they are the same exactly.
I'm curious if what we call Nirvana has a single thing to do with getting there.
I would say all that matters is what we mean by Nirvana in the first place. Words are just pointers.
Yes, me too, like the finger pointing at the moon metaphor. Words are the fingers. All we have, as far as the moon goes, is our visual image, and a lot of stuff other people tell us about the moon. What the moon 'means' is actually REALLY 'out there', no pun intended
. What it 'means' aside from what we've been told is not easily put into words unless one is a poet or devotee.
And bang - you are there! - now what...
Chopping wood, peeling potatoes; creating an illusion of chopping wood and peeling potatoes. How do you do that?
... \ lol / ...
Actually, there's a lot about enlightenment there!
At the root of Dukkha there is ignorance: not seeing things as they are or rather seeing things through the distorted lens of our expectations, attachments and prejudices.
We said it often enough: enlightenment is a shift in perspective.
I was re-reading Alexandra David-Néel today and she says about Nirvana:
"Nirvana simply consists in the complete suppression of all the false constructions of our imagination."
She also adds: "What appears as samsara to the ignorant, appears as Nirvana to him who is enlightened."
Nirvana, Satori, enlightenment, mystical experience, awakening.
All pointing to the same thing.
What's that then @Earthninja?
If Nibbana is something that can be obtained then it is subject to arising,decay and passing away.
One "may" think all pointing to the same. But, actually my question is merely on the confusion of words in a discussion. Specially when we come from different cultures, education background and everything else. In my view, enlightenment is grossly misused and we think we are talking the same where as it may be not. Example, Enlightenment has a more historical meaning, as its used for 17th century cultural movement in Europe. So in that context, the word is used in a generalized paradigm shift in thinking. We can go back to Greece and the word is used for denoting the philosophical and scientific advancement. So we need to be very careful in communication and need to make absolutely sure all discussants are in sync.
I am beginning to wonder, even among Buddhists, the personal view on those words may not be the same (different traditions, non Buddhist backgrounds etc.)
I have seen (even in this forum) discussions gone haywire, just because of simple misunderstanding of words.
Very good question. Let me tell you my personal take on this. Consider you are on a journey on foot. Lets say hitchhiking without a set destination. So you pass first mile, then second and so forth. You will face one milestone after the other for sure. Consider this milestones as "Dukkha" (suffering). So this literally means, you will get into one suffering after the other (for sure) through your never ending journey. Now say you stop the walk (journey). As soon as you stop the journey, you will stop encountering the next milestone and the rest on the way. This is a metaphor for obtaining Nirwana. Think of it as stopping your journey through reincarnations. Stop birth and stop suffering.
I like awakening myself, as in awakening to an awareness or state of mind that's always there but obscured by ignorance, defilements, etc. It's what Ajahn Sumedho calls pure conscious awareness.
Not so. Suppression or rather suspension of thought is part of yogic and Buddhist trance/concentration states. It is a form of concentrated awareness. It has a start and end point unless maintained. It is a behavour based karmic consequence. You find it in jhana and focus or concentration based techniques, where the goal is samadhi.
Even in very gentle practices such as breath awareness, the false constructions arise and dissipate. Suppressing or controlling them may have benefits but not dreaming is still sleeping . . .
True enough.
What this states is right (taking the statement meaning), even though this is not a complete summary of Nirvana.
I read this statement as Samara = Nirvana, and ignorant does not see it. If that's the case, then I cannot agree. Samsara is the vicious cycle of birth suffering death and rebirth, where as Nirvana is the break of the vicious cycle. Clearly two different things, and two most important things in Buddhism.
That is the Theravadin view. In Buddhism in its larger sense there are other views.
In particular the view of Nagarjuna. Samsara is Nirvana.
As @kavee pointed out, the term is wide open to semantics and different definitions, interpretations and speculative opinions.
When we're not there, we have only guesswork.
When we're there, we won't need to consider any definitions, because they'll be utterly redundant and superfluous.....
@anataman ( )
It can't be obtained. It can be attained. It's not a dharma. It's a state.
We are the ones subject to arising, decay and passing away.
@dharmamom Kinda like love. You can fall in love, fall out of love, have your heart broken, or never have loved at all... but none of those have any bearing on "love". Love isn't itself temporary, only the state of "being in love" is temporary. Love will go on, with or without you.
Voilà! Except that Nibbana probably lasts longer and changes your whole outlook on life?
Who knows!
IMO the Swedish word Utslocknande is much better. It is maybe also depicted in how the same word in singhala Nivena is similar to Nirvana.
It refers to a "going out" as in a candle light burning out.
I do not know the appropriate english word for it?
/Victor
Maybe extinguish?
Nabanna is samsara" seems correct to me... It's like emptiness is form or mountains are once again mountains or chopping wood.
Egads... I think I'm developing faith in Maitreya!
Funny that even when a flame goes out, its essence is within the smoke which blends in with everything else... In turn, eventually and ultimately, helping other flames to shine.
Nothing ever really goes anywhere because there is nowhere else to go.
Extinguish is a good word, the Sufis use 'fana', annihilation or extinguishing.
If we think rather than a merger but a removal/extinguishing of ignorance, obscurations and hindrances than what is left is what is always present: Buddha Nature, Nibbanna, Ones face before one is born etc . . . So in this sense one does not become enlightened, rather the factors that limit our innate knowing are extinguished or removed.
Well that is the plan . . . :wave: .
"Nirvâna means the perception of reality, much as it really is in itself. And when, by the effect of a complete change of all the mental processes, there comes the acquisition of understanding of oneself (and by oneself) that I call Nirvâna"
(Lankavatara sutra)
>
My thoughts are that in the Theravada Tradition, they would call it 'Nibbana'...
.
You can't get it if you're trying,
But you get it if you are not.
As Tolkein said:
'Not all who wander are lost'
And as I would put it:
'Not all who wonder, lust'
Extinguish! Ican buy that.