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Buddhism... The DIY Belief System (or Religion for those who prefer to see it that way)
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
Kia Ora,
It seem to me (roughly speaking) Buddhism is all about "Do It Yourself" no higher power such as supernatural beings involved...It's roll up sleeves, apron (or overalls) on and get stuck 'in' (look inwardly )...
This seems to be the major difference when it comes to other BSs/religions ie, those whose practitioners look to an outside source for guidance, forgiveness and the like...
So when it comes to Buddhism...Do you see it as a DIY BS ? IE, you're on your own, your own boss so to speak....
Or is there some form of higher power that you call upon when the going gets tough ?
Personally I like being my own boss...even when the s#!+ hits the fan and all hell breaks loose...
Metta Shoshin . 
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Comments
I think you misunderstand Christianity. I don't know any Christians who expect God to just do it all for them. What I do see is Christians who ask for God's help when it is beyond what they can handle themselves. I have seen an awfully lot of Buddhists who are homeless, close to starvation, in desperate need of medical care for diseases such as AIDs and leprosy and every other disease common to man, who have dysfunctional families, and every other social malady you can think of.
Personally, I believe in God, but not a micromanager God.
And, I don't see calling other people's religion "BS" as being a very Buddhist behavior.
He meant Belief System (s), I misread it too first time.
I'd like him to clarify that.
Kia Ora @AldrisTorvalds,
He is a "she" ( easy mistake... I know how difficult identifying gender can be online) and yes you're right BS in this instance means "Belief Systems" (@vinlyn) and not the stuff that comes out the back end of a bull, my apologies for any confusion, I thought it was clear what I meant....
Metta Shoshin .
..
@vinlyn She did ask if Buddhism was a "DIY BS", so it wasn't just about "other people's religion". Like I said I did a double take the first read-through too, until I saw how "DIY Belief System" was in the thread title and "BSs" was used (and I've never heard of "bullshits"). The derogatory term just didn't fit, but I understand the confusion.
@Shoshin Yes my mistake, I usually default to male if I haven't picked up any clues about gender. You'd think there'd be a gender-neutral pronoun... but "it" doesn't cut it!
Kia Ora,
Why do they pray ?
Metta Shoshin .
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In Sweden there is Han-He, Hon-She and then recently "Hen". Obviously it wouldnt fit in english.
.
Several daycare centers have been introducing that word. I personally think it is nuts but that just me.
Buddhism is many different things to many different people I suppose.
I think though that there’s some meaning to it that Buddhists refer to themselves as practitioners (and not as believers).
The gradual path describes a process of psychological improvement; based on the way we think and speak and behave.
The moment of enlightenment may be the exception.
The way it usually is described, it sort of happens to you. It’s not something that is done. Sakyamuni (says the story) sat under a tree one morning and then it just happened.
So yes, I think what we can do is practice and trust our practice.
@Shoshin, thank you for clarifying the "BS" thing. If you randomly asked 100 people was "BS" meant, I think all but a very few -- if not all -- would say b-------. But, okay. :-)
You ask why do they pray. Could be one of many reasons. They feel helpless (e.g., if you have terminal cancer, being your own boss doesn't cut it). They pray for their own strength and courage. They realize that no man is an island, so to speak. They pray to think clearly and make good decisions.
And why not pray? Does it do any harm? I wonder how many of our members have prayed at some point.
Is repetitive chanting any more successful than prayer? What does a monk tying an orange string around your wrist accomplish? What does lighting incense actually do? Why place flowers in front of Buddha's statue? Why have a Buddhist altar in your house? Why offer water to a statue of Buddha? Why prostrate yourself in front of a Buddha statue? Why "wai" a monk? If you think being your own boss is the answer, why take refuge in the sangha? Why light a candle in a tiny boat and set it adrift? Why can't monks be their "own boss", but instead rely on lay people for food and beverage and medicine? Why offer a monk a seat on the bus when he should fend for himself? Why put money in the alms box; why can't the needy be their own "boss"? Why have a monk bless you? Why meditate to help others?
And, BTW, you don't think there are supernatural beings in Buddhism?
I'm not criticizing your original question. In fact, I think it's a good one. Just friendly questions.
Interesting and useful question.
Most Buddhists are lazy, superstitious, reliant on external factors, simplistic or using ineffectual practices (oh wait that us just me).
Some Christians do nothing more than attend Church expecting heaven if they are not too bad. Relatively few are involved in a mystical path of prayer and contemplation. If they are, they are fellow travellers . . .
However we have a choice to DIY as you say. It depends what you want. I would also suggest that there are more facilities and experienced advisors for the inner path in the Western Dharma.
No need for heaven and hell . . . unless you like that sort of thing . . . :wave: .
@Lobster said, "No need for heaven and hell". Okay. But what if there really is a heaven and/or hell?
Seriously?
OK then prepare a picnic for either eventuality . . . Are we expecting teeth gnashing? Lapsed dharmaists, gay angels? Wrathful bodhis . . . Oh I can't wait . . . what fun . . .
No Mr Cushion you can't come, there is no life left in you . . .
See, here's my problem with this issue of heaven and hell.
Ralph says there is no heaven or hell.
I say I don't know whether there is a heaven or hell. But I wanna know how Ralph KNOWS.
Kia Ora @vinlyn,
According to my understanding there are no supernatural beings floating around in Buddha space, the use of such beings are just tools used for training the mind....
Buddha images and the like are 'reminders' so to speak, of what's possible and how it can be accomplished...(One could say such images can at times create a special kind of magic in the mind, keeping one on track)
Others might choose to see things differently, so if a belief in supernatural beings is helping them to become free from suffering and become better human beings, then it must be a good/wholesome thing..Good for them... Whatever floats ones raft I say...
Metta Shoshin .
..
KIa Ora @vinlyn,
Some believers in heaven and hell might say "If you don't believe in what I believe then you will burn in hell !" and my answer to this is "Well it's your hell...you burn in it, I've got better things to do !" . :coffee: ..
Metta Shoshin .
..
You would pretty much discount the entire Pure Land tradition if you see Buddhism this way - a tradition that is actually one of the most popular among Asian Buddhists. This tradition is centered around an Other Power - Amitabha Buddha and his Bodhisattva vows.
The exact same thing could be said of other belief systems - some people take things too literally, some people see things more metaphorically.
Kia Ora @Invincible_summer,
This is how I personally see Buddhism, but what floats other practitioners rafts is what floats their raft and if it keeps them afloat that must be a good thing...
I could be wrong when it comes to supernatural beings 'supporting' the raft in rough waters/times, but as it stands, this is just how my mind works, it has no time nor space for the supernatural...But I do stress that, if supernatural being help others then good on them for doing so...
Metta Shoshin .
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"Man is the only creature that prays.
Or needs to." (Anon.)
In a nutshell, as far as I can say for myself, I DO see Buddhism as a Religion (try telling Monks, Lamas and nuns in temples, it isn't).
And briefly, A theistic Religion relies, for support/assistance/guidance/reward/retribution on something/one 'out there', while Buddhism gives us the responsibility of sucking it all up 'in here'.
Unless its Pure Land...which is practised by the vast majority of Chinese and Japanese Buddhists as @Invincible_summer said......
Yes, I thought that had been covered....
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It has @federica but it bears repeating I think, that what is almost certainly a majority of the world's Buddhists believe in " Other Power" not self power.
This can be a paradox for we western Buddhists, many of whom are distancing themselves from Christianity and so feel more comfortable with the idea of "self power "..
But just as the " average human being " if you take the variables together in terms of frequency of occurrence looks like a young Chinese woman rather than a caucasian male..
In the same way the " average" Buddhist based on the frequency of characteristics found in the world population of Buddhists, looks like a Pure Lander.
So the idea of it being a " DIY belief system " is true only of a minority.
Its just that description is of an approach more common in current western Buddhist circles.
Interestingly the great Zen pioneer DT Suzuki predicted that eventually Pure Land would form the largest Buddhist group in the west too.
Personally, I prefer the accountability to myself, both right now, and after I die. My actions, to me, have less meaning if I am doing it in an effort to earn heaven, or whatever.
Note: Just because I do not understand their mindset, doesn't mean I think they are wrong. I just don't get it so it's not for me.
My children's aunt (their dad's sister) has a husband who was diagnosed with stage 3 stomach cancer. I follow their caringbridge as I was part of their family for a long time. They are very Christian people. He is being treated at the Mayo clinic. At every turn, every success, credit is given to God. There is no credit given to the surgeons, the nurses, the care taking...just God. When his surgery went well, it was God's success. When he has a good days, again, all thanks to God. No thanks to anyone else. That, I don't understand. It's kind of funny because as I was reading while she talked about how her belief in God carries them through, and God blesses them as a result of their beliefs, and how grateful they are that God loves them....anyhow, I was thinking "I just do not understand that" and her next post was that she doesn't understand how anyone could NOT feel how she does.
But for me it always comes down the same: If they are such good Christians and are so blessed by God because of it, then what of the children who suffer and die from cancer? Clearly they were not good enough Christians. What about some credit for the surgeon who spent so much of his life studying and paying medical school and developing the skill to properly do the surgery.
None of that stuff works for me, and those questions are unanswerable. If I can't get answers from God as to the methods of His madness, it just doesn't work. I am more comfortable accepting that sometimes, S&% just happens. There isn't always an explanation, a punishment, or a blessing within it, much less from an outside source. It's more important to me to know how to deal with the S&% when it happens than to ask someone to take my troubles.
That said, @Shoshin there are Buddhists who do pray to deities for strength and so on. For those I know who do so, it is more about having a visual to draw upon and invoke it within themselves, but others are more literal about it. We do some deity stuff with our teacher sometimes, but for me, it is not literal. It is more about finding those qualities within me and around me and making use of them and getting in touch with the spirit (not like a ghost, but a quality) of that deity/person. I know Christians who do the same. But many Christians I know are quite literal about it and completely push away any idea that God is not sitting up there observing them, loving them, blessing them, and they think everything good in their live, is bestowed upon them by God because they are good Christians. Not for any other reason.
Very interesting post, @Karasti, and that is why I have long assumed that God is not a micromanager.
I think the distinction between 'inner' and 'outer' is interesting.
For example, when we see the 'outer' world, are we seeing the world as it is outside or a representation of a relationship, inside?
In which case - what is outside and inside?
It seems to be an inclination, perhaps born of the mechanical aspect of our relationship with the stuff of reality to see things as tasks to be done, boxes to be filled, here and there.
I think whether one thinks they're the boss or not, makes little sense outside of a particular set of circumstances.
Perhaps the words and the symbols are varied but underlying that I'm not so certain that our outlook is that dissimilar in facing the demands of existence.
It may be @vinlyn that what the Japanese call tariki and jiriki " Other power" and "Self Power" are not two in reality...that there is one continuum.
And that they represent different temperaments rather than opposing doctrines..
I don't see Buddhism as completely DIY, since one of the three legs (jewels) is the sangha, the community. Though I think for many of us in the U.S. the sangha is virtual, it is still an aspect that is not "self", that IS an "outside source". Of course I am leaving the Buddha out of my musings here.
Still...I do get @Shoshin's point. That one can practice alone, without worshipful obeisance, is an attractive aspect of Buddhism to me as well.
That I could buy into. In fact, now that I think of it, in a sense isn't that along the lines of what I was saying?
Yup..it was in support rather than an alternative view...
;-)
Kia Ora,
Just out of interest(whist we are on the subject of ins and outs)...Can anything exist 'outside' the mind?
Metta Shoshin .
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yes.
This is where 'duality' comes in.
That rock you just stubbed your toe on, is not 'all in the mind'. Is it?
But if you cannot digest it, you will never understand it.....
That's nice, but not really what your first few posts were getting at. You're basically trying to get at how Buddhism is different from other religions due to a "DIY" aspect to it, as an inherent characteristic of the religion. If this were more a thread about how one personally practices Buddhism (self-power vs other-power focused), that would be a different story.
I know it seems like I'm splitting hairs about semantics, but that's the impression I'm getting from the posts that formed the context of the thread.
It's good that you are open-minded about how others practice. I'm glad you have found a way of practicing that works for you. However, I think it's important to note that this "DIY" aspect of Buddhism is not the way many people who were born into Buddhism practice their faith; that's why I think it's not really accurate to broadly say that Buddhism is a "DIY religion." The majority of practitioners (despite what internet forums, zendos, and mindfulness centers may lead you to think) do have a strong inclination towards faith in an Other Power. Or at least with a good balance of self-reliance thrown in.
That reminds me of a documentary about a Nepalese opthamologist (eye surgeon) who was allowed into North Korea to perform hundreds of cataract surgeries for free. Young and old have cataracts there due mainly to malnutrition and untreated eye disease. When the bandages were removed, the patients, now with restored vision, gave direct testimony and thanks to the giant portrait of Kim Il Sung. They waved their arms, landed on their knees, wept copiously shouting thanks and gratitude for their Dear Leader. The physician and his staff sat at the back of the room with the camera catching glimpses of them now and then.
@Karasti, situation like you mention about the stomach cancer situation is what led me to believe that God is not a micromanager. I do pray occasionally...just in case. But I have little faith in it -- literally. And I have to admit that as a part-Christian I still laugh at those who believe fervently in prayer. If the "right" things happen, they praise God. If the "wrong" things happen they say "God works in mysterious ways". Seems to me you can't have it both ways.
But, what the difference if you don't believe in God/prayer or if you pray and it doesn't work, either. The result is the same.
Laughing at the faith of others? Nice.
OK then prepare a picnic for either eventuality . . . Are we expecting teeth gnashing? Lapsed dharmaists, gay angels? Wrathful bodhis . . . Oh I can't wait . . . what fun . . .
Gaybriel? lol.
It is born of the desperate need to believe in God. Similar to how Buddhists may desperately cling to meditation even if meditation doesn't help them one bit. It is about holding on to something....
Many Buddhists do almost the same thing. They put other people's needs in their meditations as if some weird electrical force is going to change another person's future.
And yes, to some extent it is about holding on to something.
And since you quoted me, good place to refine an earlier comment -- instead of saying "laugh at", I more accurately should have said, "chuckle to myself over".
Kia Ora,
To be quite honest even though I've been through Buddhist empowerments and the like, my Western secular mindset tends to still view the 4NTs & 8FP as a form of 'self help' psychotherapy, of which I've benefitted greatly from,( hence why I see Buddhism as a DIY Experience) and due to this beneficial experience, my mind is open to karma and the possibility of rebirth etc...Dharma practice has become my work, rest & play, it's 24/7/365...
One of the most important lessons I've learn (through trial and error) is not to take my 'self' too seriously, or "I" could end up creating problems not only for my "self" but for others too...
How others choose to see and practice Buddhism is entirely up to them...I can only wish them well on their journey of [non] self discovery, be it through DIY means or otherwise...
Metta Shoshin .
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Really? You mean to say that there's no Weird Electrical Force that changes another p[erson's future????
DAMMIT!!!
So the guy who sold me my Sears Meditation Poncho was LYING??? He ASSURED me that the Weird Electrical Force would change other people's lives. Forever.
I did tonglen for a friend and then his life changed - he moved to Minneapolis right before the Winter Of The Polar Vortexes. I've always thought that was pretty weird and was thinking this was due to the Weird Electrical Force Most Buddhists Believe In and arose due to my meditation.
DAMMIT!!!!
If I started prostrating before a butter knife, would that help?
Basically, I think every BS has a DIY component to it, because ultimately we take from religions/belief systems whatever suits our needs best, and we also construe/misconstrue them as skillfully/unskillfully as the limitations of our intellect allow.
The danger of being your own boss in a belief system, is that you might be passing for Buddhism things which could actually be not Buddhism at all, or simply be your own tailored misconstruction of Buddhism. But there are so many views on Buddhism (sample five people from the forum and you'll see) that nobody will probably notice, anyway...
My experience too. I have always viewed the 4NTs and the N8P as a perfectly logical and pragmatic self-help recipe. From there, I have been exploring different Buddhist schools, and gradually opening up to broader concepts.
I am surprised at the richness and variety of the different traditions, and though I know some traits don't appeal to me, I respect that every one is free to believe whatever tickles their fancy. Ultimately, it's a very personal path.
>
@Chaz.....? behave.
If we're talking Christianity, Hell is not a Bible teaching. Hell is a doctrine designed by the Catholic church to get bums on pews.
Seriously, look into it; I did a few years ago - I can't remember all the ins and outs - but Gehenna was a place south west of Jerusalem where the rubbish was burnt and the dead bodies of criminals were dumped. Mummy's would've warned their children to "Be good otherwise you'll end up in Gehenna".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
And Heaven - even in the Bible - is a bit like Nirvana. I believe you won't get a straight answer to what Nirvana is because it's non-conceptual; therefore it's often described in the negative (i.e. Nirvana is not suffering). The Bible does this also and Heaven is described as a place where 'God wipes away the tears'.
A story from the Sufi tradition.
Nazruddin was hungry...in fact he was starving. He hadn't eaten for two days and there was nothing in the house.
He went into his garden and prayed that Allah would send him food.
His neighbour, who Nazruddin had made to look foolish once, heard him praying and thought " I will pay him back"..
So he took a piece of meat from his larder and threw it over the fence..
"Allah be Praised! " said Nazruddin, he then took the meat inside where he and his wife cooked and ate it.
The following day Nazruddin went into the garden and said "thank you for the meat Lord, but we are hungry again ".
The neighbour chuckling at the thought of Nazruddin's credulity threw a bag of flour over the fence..which Mrs Nazruddin baked into a beautiful loaf.
the next day Nazruddin was in the garden again... The neighbour decided to tell him.."That meat and flour " he said.."that wasnt Allah, it was me "
"No it was Allah " replied Nazruddin. " you were just the middle man ".
I do practice Buddhism but I don't feel like I am practicing a religion. I think that the teaching came first and the label 'Buddhism' came much later.
Well, true 'nuff, the Buddha wasn't Buddhist, as many are fond of saying, but sadly, the word 'religion' frightens people off. They associate the practice with being devout, single-pointed focused on a specific reason for following what they follow.
The origin of the word 'Religion' has been put forward as coming from the Latin "Religare", which means 'to tie, to bind, to connect'. However, this is now disputed. But this is interesting.....
That article made an interesting point; Indo-European languages had no specific word like 'religion' as did latin (religio, religere) to denote what now would be called religious activities, as there was no conceptual distinction between secular and religious activities, thoughts, sentiments . . .
I don't see myself as practicing a religion either . . . and it is a bit cute to say "Buddha wasn't a Buddhist". Christ was not a Christian, either. For me, religion denotes an institutionalization of a set of beliefs with a special purpose -- that of influence and control over the practitioners. Not a good or bad thing in itself, but who was it in Lord of the Rings who said "Men are weak" when it comes to the seduction of power? We are! Only very mature human beings don't abuse power in some way, however jokingly or insignificantly, we are suckers for it and yes me too.
Religion frightens ME off, and the above is why, but not because of any intensity of focus or devotion. It frightens me off as it attempts to remove individual responsibility (and thus, power) and consolidate it within an elite group. One's access to the 'divine' is doled out and 'controlled' by priests or monks or gurus, rather than encountered directly by the individual.
I don't want anyONE or anyTHING to get between me (whoever that is
) and Buddhahood or transcendence. Not that they actually CAN, that would be an illusion; but if I believed that illusion, it would keep me subject to another HUMAN rather than the 'divine'.
Even so my practice doesn't have 'me' as the center of the action, or some idea of a Higher Self of Me (barf, seriously). What it is that I am subject to . . . no idea, I just know it is magnificent
Some interesting points!
And I agree that the whole "Buddha wasn't a Buddhist" (etc.) line is mostly just a cute little nothing of consequence.
In terms of "influence and control over the practitioners"...not so sure I agree with this, at least in terms of the present time. I think that may have been very true historically, but at least in the West, in today's culture, more and more people are expressing sentiments that they believe in God, but not in any one church, and official membership in most churches is at pretty much an all-time low. Even back in the mid-1960s when I was growing up Catholic, most in my very-Catholic family didn't really care much about what the Pope said, or even what the local priest said. Yes, they still did confession and the like, but it was more ritualistic than anything, and they pretty much ignored teachings on topics such as birth control, and to some extent even abortion (the anti-abortion thing had a heavier cultural slant, than a Catholic slant, at least in my home town). And today -- 50 years later, I think independence in Western religion is much more the rule.
I said that the Buddha wasn't Buddhist with a relatively flippant intention, but cute as it is, it had its moments.
Not that I posted it, but I saw it on a forum once, and several people came back and stated that they either didn't know that, or they'd never thought of it that way before - in exactly the same way, @Hamsaka, that you rightly say, Christ wasn't a Christian.
It's not a bad point at all...and it does sort of remind one not to get too wrapped up in a religion that was founded by someone who wasn't wrapped up in the religion! :-) Just seems like I hear it different places so often that it has become a bit cliche (not that something becoming cliche doesn't mean it's not true).