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Is Buddhism anti-music?
zenguitar
Bad BuddhistNew England Veteran
Greetings, discriminating Sangha. I was perusing the Eight Precepts the other day and came across number 7, which, as an amateur musician, caused me some degree of consternation:
"I accept the training rule (a) to abstain from dancing, singing, instrumental music, and shows, and (b) from the use of jewelry, cosmetics, and beauty lotions."
Hmm, now I can understand why monks (and serious laypersons) would want to avoid, say, burlesque shows or Miley Cyrus concerts (same thing?). But what about more sedate forms of musical performance, like classical music or serious dance like ballet? Is that also forbidden? Can someone please shed light on what seems like a rather anti-musical precept to me?
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Comments
It's for Monks, and for laypeople to adhere to on "High days and Holy Days". Up to you whether you feel you want to adhere to it. If you're happy playing your music - play your music.
It is meant so that music (or other things) not be an attachment or a distraction. Anything beyond the 5 precepts (and in some traditions those don't come into play even) is for a rather serious practitioner. I find it useful to take the 8 precepts every so often, it gives a different perspective on things and causes you to look at what place those things have in your life. Will you not become enlightened because you happen to like to go to a concert now and then? I highly doubt it. Might it be a distraction from continuation on your spiritual path if you have headphones on all the time, can't sleep, can't meditate, can't do anything without music.
The way Thubten Chodron explains it always made the most sense to me:
http://archive.thubtenchodron.org/PrayersAndPractices/the_eight_mahayana_precepts_ceremony.html
Also, you'll basically never find a situation, precept, sutra, or whatever that is 100% across the board of all of Buddhism to be "this is what Buddhism believes." because Buddhism doesn't believe anything. It's up to us, to the best of our ability to determine what the various things mean, using common sense and understanding and investigation. Different traditions and even teachers within those traditions understand things just a bit different. There is a big difference between "don't sit on a luxurious bed" and "don't sit on a luxurious bed with pride" just as there is a difference between "don't listen to music" and "don't listen to music with attachment."
@zenguitar
Don't think of it in terms of forbidden or not. Think of it in terms of how you relate to it and whether the consequences of your relationship to music are acceptable to you.
One being's medicine can be another ones poison...& vise versa.
If your creation and playing of music fosters attachments to the production and experience of music, then suffering will result. If your production and playing of music does not create attachments then suffering will not be caused by it.
I'd suggest exploring this question by being mindful of your state of equanimity before, during and following your music to illuminate which is which, for you.
My Lamas teacher does spontaneous poems and dances. I think Tibetan Buddhism allows music etc
@katasti great post. You do have to ask yourself why you would buy a luxurious bed or listen to music.
It's for sense pleasure obviously. Aka craving.
If somebody gives you a nice bed, or you hear music walking down the street that would be different.
Don't get me wrong! I have a nice bed! I'm just trying to point out why serious practitioners don't do these things.
Okay, thank you everyone, I feel a little more reassured now.
Music is completely infused with and is a product of sensual indulgence.. for those bent on renunciation like monastics it's about as "bad" as they come when you are working on lessening desire for sensual pleasures.
same goes with everything else listed.
"I accept the training rule (a) to abstain from dancing, singing, instrumental music, and shows, and (b) from the use of jewelry, cosmetics, and beauty lotions."
These things perpetuate attachment and aversion in our mind. They distract our mind from seeing things as they truly are.
That being said however a trained person could hear any music and discern sound as sound, not " oh I like this one" or " this hurts my ears turn it off!", just sound. There is nothing inherently wrong with music, singing or dancing, it's all just the 5 aggregates, but our relationship to it, our attachment to it as a distraction for our mind is where the unwholesome qualities lay. If you doubt the power of entertainments like music, take a long drive of a few hours with NO radio or distractions... notice how your mind will bring up it's own playlist in your mind, keeping itself distracted, busy.
However when sound is just sound, what does it matter if you hear it or not? Bargaining or trying to find some sort of intellectual argument for why "its not so bad" or " its good for you" is just a sign of your attachment to it, something we can observe and learn from.
As an aside and a P.S for the 8 precepts, good on any lay person who can keep the 8 precepts in lay life, I tried and it didn't last very long lol. The 8 monastic precepts are called that for a reason hehe.
Interesting, but I'm not so sure about that, especially if we are talking about some kind of really rarefied music. For instance, Japanese shakuhachi flute music, or Bach's Art of Fugue, or austere 20th century art music. These are not steeped in sensual desire--are they? That's the kind of music I meant.
Ask yourself, do you listen to this music for enjoyment? If you do it would be steeped in sensual desire.
As in desire to please your sense of hearing.
It does not matter what music, it matters as to why you listen to it.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying. Enjoying is Samboghakaya, the bliss body of Buddha.
The point of suffering is that it is suffering. To the extent that you suffer from music is one thing. But if you enjoy music it is definitively non-suffering. If it were suffering then you wouldn't enjoy it.
Nothing is gained by mentally labeling enjoyment as suffering. In truth enjoyment is only enjoyment and it is not suffering.
To the "instructed noble disciple"(ie someone who knows and practices dhamma) sound is just sound... there is no difference between a 2 year old banging a spoon on a can and flute music, Bach, Beethoven etc.. we MAKE that difference, with our desire, our craving, our likes and dislikes, we sow the seeds of our own dissatisfaction, our own Dukkha.
Dukkha(dissatisfaction/suffering) is being separated from music we like, having to hear music we do not like.
This is what I mean by steeped in sensual desire. I do not mean that there is something inherent in energy passing through the air(sound) that causes sensual desire, only the connections we attach to it, connected to memories of contact between the senses and external stimuli.
I don't want you to get the idea that I'm saying " music is bad horrible, evil, buddhists shouldn't listen to it". This is not what I am saying and there are many many more important things to lessen attachment to before you would have to worry about music, however it should also be seen for what it is regardless.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu, one of the worlds most revered monastics in the Theravada traditon, when asked about what was hard to give up when he became a monk, did not mention sex, or food ... but Classical music..
Certainly. But it's the SEEKING of enjoyment which is the problem.
See the difference? You can enjoy blissful states of meditation.... For sure!
But if you meditate to seek the blissful states your in deep samsara.
Because as I have found out my meditation goes the way it wants to. I suffered for a while until I realised I have no control. Then I let go.
Same with music, video games, tv shows, food...
I'm not saying quit doing these things because they are not the way. I'm pointing out why monastics (most) don't do these things.
For me, I do a different approach. The more I can see/know something is causing craving/desire i don't do it anymore. It's a slow approach.
Monastics have strict precepts. I respect then for that thoroughly!
In college, I had to take an Art, Music, Theatre appreciation class as part of the general degree requirements. [tangent coming up] It was a difficult class for me, but a bit harder for my professors I think. In fact, the class was going to award me my first non-A (a C actually) in three years of attendance. Fortunately for me, the university had a one time policy that a student could retake a class and replace the first grade. I told my professors that I was going to retake it for the 'A' and they gave me the 'A' so I wouldn't come back.
Anyway...
My music professor (there were three professors, each teaching their specialty) in the class was explaining how music can make you feel certain ways. I pointed out that methamphetamines could do the same thing. It did not go over well. My point, which was ceremoniously dismissed, was that I choose not to ingest anything that changes the way I feel - particularly if that change happens unconsciously.
I'm just adding this perspective because it was one I found not represented above - not necessarily because I think that what I think is portable.
My experience has been that the more I meditate the less I want to listen to music.
How many can enjoy lift music, or silent tones, or water moving in many forms . . . ?
Music is designed to augment or enhance our understanding through intuitive, gestalt, emotional stimulation. It can therefore free that aspect of our being or . . .
. . . I remember listening to loud music after work and it relaxed me into sleep. Dopamine is released. Body high.
So do you require music to move you into a non conceptual way of being/thinking/experiencing? Maybe you are a sound junky.
Time for a musical interlude?
I really appreciate natural sounds these days, like waves breaking, wind in trees, even noisy sea gulls arguing
KIa Ora,
It would seem Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche missed the 7th...
Metta Shoshin .:) ..
I'd rather be a masochist and suffer the thrill of music, than be a pure samsara-less goody-two-shoes and live in a world of austere silent deprivation.
It doesn't have to be about deprivation, it can simply be that one no longer _needs _certain experiences.
Sometimes I remember my childhood in a strict, Christian fundamentalist household. We were not allowed to watch television, go to movies or shows, play games that involved dice or cards, and the radio was turned to a Christian station only. Going someplace like a pool or beach was definitely out. Why? Because those things were distractions from glorifying God and bad for you. You never knew what the Devil would use to sneak into the house. But just to make sure, we went to church at least three times a week, twice on Sundays. We were allowed to sing, but only the worship songs approved in the official song book. I was taught that a holy life meant every moment you were praying or thanking God, or witnessing to the people you met and sharing the Gospel. Life was serious business. I was being raised by a Preacher, you see, and my entire childhood was pretty much wishing I could have fun. But Jesus, and my Preacher grandmother, was watching, and they didn't approve of unsanctioned fun.
What were the Preachers and Amen corner ladies actually afraid of? Mostly that we might notice that people were having fun that didn't involved the Church or Bible. It wasn't the movie or dance music they were afraid of, but the people on display enjoying it. It might give us cause to think about doing other things with our life besides getting ready for Church. In other words, we lived the lives of monks to a great extent.
So when I read a list of activities that monks are not allowed or supposed to engage in, all it does is remind me that people are people, and Buddhism as a religion is in some ways no different from any other religious institution. All the rules boil down to:
"You're a monk now. This is serious business. We didn't shave your head and give you a robe so you could have fun. There's always work to do. The Dharma doesn't comprehend itself, you know."
So the monks and temple that wrote and lived by those sutras weren't anti-music. They were anti-fun. Fun is chaotic, and messy, and noisy, and the best fun ignores the rules. So yes, of course, you get fingers wagged in your face in the sutras from time to time. And you don't expect to walk into a temple and hear a radio somewhere blasting out the top 40. But that doesn't mean you aren't allowed to listen to music or dance or play the guitar as a Buddhist. Nor does it mean those activities are bad for you. Just understand that some of what you read in the sutras is designed for monks, not households.
What need are we fulfilling when we decide to listen to music? Are we seeking a change of mood? Maybe some inspiration?
I realise this, just thinking on something stated earlier:
>
I see, thanks people. I wonder though if this 7th precept is more strictly adhered to in Theravada circles rather than Mahayana or Vajrayana. Are there any Zen guitarist/priests, or Dzogchen drummer/lamas? If so, I'm good.
The attachment is looking for a way out... Any way out, its not picky at this point as it resorts to bargaining lol..
Sounds like you might enjoy looking up Phil Sudo, who wrote some books like "Zen Guitar" and has some interesting youtube videos. He died of cancer about the time people started to really listen to what he had to say.
seeking to do something is merely volition. Becoming enlightened does not end volition or creativity. So if you say to yourself that you would enjoy music that is not necessarily an attachment. If you suffer when listening it must have been an attachment whereas if you enjoy the music that is sure indication that you were not attached. And listening to the music even if it is prone to attachment is an arena to practice the dharma.
I do confess that when I see people dancing, I feel a little embarrassed for our species but I also feel a little bit of distraction is a good thing. The last thing I want is to take all the fun out of life.
Either way, I'm not so sure I see a problem outside of training. Can we not dance and be aware at the same time if we've put enough training in?
Never let anyone tell you that creating something beautiful is wrong because you enjoy doing it, whether it's beautiful music or a painting or a meditation garden. And when you share that beauty with other people, you make the world a little better place for everyone.
Experiencing the beauty of the world, listening to a song or music or looking at a beautiful painting that touches you, is not wrong. Appreciating the beauty that other people create is not wrong. Being touched by a story and laughing or crying with someone is not wrong. It's what binds us together as human beings.
You worry about attachments? How about being attached to some idea of the dharma that says if you just follow this set of rules; if you just eliminate this list of distractions and defilements in your life, then you're being a proper Buddhist and you're on the road to enlightenment. Any day now. You just wait and see. OK, maybe next life.
I know people who are more attached to their particular meditation practice than a rich man is to his money. A poor man can become attached to and kill over a spot on a sidewalk and a cardboard box. Attachment has nothing to do with enjoying something. It's not wanting to let something go.
So enjoy what you do, but let it go. Listen to the radio and enjoy the music, but don't get mad if someone asks you to turn it off, change the station, or turn it down. See how that works? Create beauty and give it away and create more.
Just my own opinion, for what it's worth.
^^^ Well said.
I was recently watching a film about the life of Mark Twain on PBS....and another writer was talking about him...( I can't rememeber the guys name, and tried to look it up, I'll come back after I watch it again and give the guy the quote credit)..anyway...he said..." A good writer reminds us of our humanity and our human traits"...
@Cinorjer .... your name immediatly popped in my head. I enjoy reading your posts because of the way you do just that. No matter the topic. You always find a way to remind us of the real day to day humanity of things. Thank you for that. Thank you for sharing your art/creation of writing.
I hear you say things very few people will even recognize...let alone say. ..
...
Thank you for that, too.
Sorry for the de-rail...I just needed to show some love ...
...
Thanks, but if music is an attachment, it seems there are far worse things that someone could be attached to.
Thanks @Cinorjer , I was sure I heard that phrase "zen guitar" from someplace!
Exactly so. :clap: .
I listen to music rarely. Usually it is in films and I am sometimes unaware of it. Others find music mood changing, beautiful, indispensable, relaxing etc. A useful and skilful tool.
Monks have a higher potential lack of distraction. During retreat, music, mobile phones, dancing and dressing up as Donald Duck is not always available.
How important is music, dressing as Donald or temporary life pursuits? Depends how ready we are to let go . . .
which is exactly what I said in my thread above...
Attachment has nothing to do with enjoying something. It's not wanting to let something go.
Though enjoying something may well _lead _to attachment. If anything it's silence I'm attached to these days.
Ok, @jayanthha, got it, thanks.
Oh, yes. I also am now cherishing the peace and quiet of living alone, except for having 4 barky dogs that refuse to shut up at times. That gets on my nerves. Yet, if they were gone, I'd miss the way they greet me by jumping around and barking when I come home. Even if I've just gone to the store and back. I'm as attached to their irritating noisy presence as I am to the quiet solitude when they're stretched out at my feet asleep. Funny how that goes.
Of course maybe I should have made a distinction (maybe a little snobby) here between just listening to pop music as entertainment versus creating serious music as a form of art. Is the latter an "attachment"? I suppose it might be, but it seems a superior form of attachment compared to, say, being addicted to the stuff on the Billboard top 10.
I don't know what else to say, but...thank you for the complement. It made my day. Never trust someone who claims a complement doesn't affect them.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's your personal opinion. Superior in your prejudices. Many people would disagree with you and many would agree.
In reality it's all just sounds. Neither is superior or inferior. It's vibrations in the air hitting your ear drum. What you make of those sounds is up to the individual.
Go well!
Of course maybe I should have made a distinction (maybe a little snobby) here between just listening to pop music as entertainment versus creating serious music as a form of art.
_Playing _music is a good activity for developing mindful and concentration, so you could probably count it towards your Buddhist "5-a-day".
Yeah, a little snobby, but to each his own. We love ya, anyway.
Related to this, I also recall reading something about Zen monks wandering around Japan playing shakuhachi flute. And they also get to drink rice wine as well--sometimes.
No wonder Zen is so popular
Play that funky music zen boy.
http://estetykaikrytyka.pl/art/22/eik_22_5.pdf
If a person sees that music increases defilements then its time to turn away from music. If one sees that music decreases defilements then don't turn away.
Dude, that's like...zen.
Kia Ora,
"The Jewel Is In The Lotus"
Metta Shoshin .
..
Finnish!? Yepp. Thats exactly right.
I remember vividly the day I came across these precepts, page 53, of F. L. Woodward's "Some Sayings of the Buddha" (1925 edition).
I was twelve, doing ballet, and thoroughly enjoying the experience of learning how to make myself up for the stage.
I still use plenty of cosmetics. I believe in crystal therapy, so use and abuse jewellery. I'm an incorrigible music lover and party girl. And yes, I go to the theatre and cinema often.
In the different sanghas I've belonged to, we have always sung mantras to my heart's content.
I agree that these precepts are mainly aimed at people who choose to retire to a monastic life.
As to the layman, it's all in the approach. Is there craving, attachment to those activities? Do they generate suffering to oneself or to anyone else?
If not, then let's all sing!
That's great, @shoshin, thanks. I enjoyed his book Turning The Mind Into An Ally. I didn't know he had his own music video.