Heaven - Hell and other Realms …All in the Mind

Shoshin

May the comments of this thread continue to find the readers & participants well… (I’m just trying out new approaches at the beginning of each "thread" )

. :coffee: ..

Thus I have heard from different Buddhist sources( and I might add, from personal experience) that hell can be experienced here in samsara, (samsara is not hell-Just like Nirvana, Samsara just “is” ) in other words the mind can if one lets it, create a hell realm right here on this earth when ones thought patterns are left to their own devices and run rampant…
The following link gives a brief outline of the different Buddhist traditions’ take on the afterlife…

http://www.sptimmortalityproject.com/background/buddhist-views-of-the-afterlife/

I know that in the Christian & Islamic beliefs, there’s the separate heaven & hell and from what I gather in Judaism many (including many non Jewish people) believe that you make your own heaven & hell here on earth…

Dukkha so it would seem( in the conventional sense ) is both short term heaven & hell that we create in our minds, sadly no doubt some members here are going through Dukkha hell right at this moment…And on the other hand happily no doubt some members are going through Dukkha heaven(and long may it last)…

Many moons ago I too had the good fortune of visiting my mind-made hell on a number of occasions (For awhile, it was my home away from home so to speak) …I say good fortune because I learnt something about my ‘self’ from each experience/visit…And the golden lesson learnt was "annica" –the impermanent nature of all things. Including samsaric states “pleasant & unpleasant”…

What are your ‘thoughts’ on heaven & hell (both here & ‘there’) and are you totally Buddhist about them?,

Or do you have non Buddhist thoughts on the matter?

As for the afterlife thing, me, I kinda like the bardo mind-trip idea, not only does it sound quite (dare I say) logical, it also sounds quite exciting…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo

Originally bardo referred only to the period between one life and the next, and this is still its normal meaning when it is mentioned without any qualification. There was considerable dispute over this theory during the early centuries of Buddhism, with one side arguing that rebirth (or conception) follows immediately after death, and the other saying that there must be an interval between the two. With the rise of mahayana, belief in a transitional period prevailed. Later Buddhism expanded the whole concept to distinguish six or more similar states, covering the whole cycle of life, death, and rebirth.

But it can also be interpreted as any transitional experience, any state that lies between two other states. Its original meaning, the experience of being between death and rebirth, is the prototype of the bardo experience, while the six traditional bardos show how the essential qualities of that experience are also present in other transitional periods. By refining even further the understanding of the essence of bardo, it can then be applied to every moment of existence. The present moment, the now, is a continual bardo, always suspended between the past and the future.

However when push comes to shove, I’m in the camp of where either way, it’s all in the mind…

. ..

how

Heaven and hell are karmic polarities. Cul de sacs of karmic inertia.
Trying to tie them to time or space or a place or the mind, misses the point that both are simply side excursions off the path towards sufferings cessation.

pegembara

How else does one experience anything(including bardo states) without "mind"?

Dwelling at Savatthi. There the Blessed One addressed the monks: "I will teach you the origination of the world & the ending of the world. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.044.than.html
http://www.dhammaweb.net/Tipitaka/read.php?id=256
http://www.palikanon.com/namen/l/loka_s.htm

... it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.045.than.html

Hamsaka

Being 'all in the mind' is as good as saying 'real' according to Albus Dumbledore. Where else would it be?

Cul de sacs of karmic inertia. I grew up in one of those.

Buddhadragon

Very well-known story in Buddhist circles, but I find a good story never wears out its welcome...

Zen Story: Heaven and Hell

Hakuin, the fiery and intensely dynamic Zen master, was once visited by a samurai warrior.

“I want to know about heaven and hell,” said the samurai. “Do they really exist?” he asked Hakuin.
Hakuin looked at the soldier and asked, “Who are you?”

“I am a samurai,” announced the proud warrior.

“Ha!” exclaimed Hakuin. “What makes you think you can understand such insightful things? You are merely a callous, brutish soldier! Go away and do not waste my time with your foolish questions,” Hakuin said, waving his hand to drive away the samurai.

The enraged samurai couldn’t take Hakuin’s insults. He drew his sword, readied for the kill, when Hakuin calmly retorted, “This is hell.”

The soldier was taken aback. His face softened. Humbled by the wisdom of Hakuin, he put away his sword and bowed before the Zen Master.

“And this is heaven,” Hakuin stated, just as calmly.

lobster

If we do only what is expedient we may have a chance.

Heaven, hell and remirth[sic] are all for those stuck as @how mentions and the Samurai illustrates through Hakuin's facilitation. We are not trying to get somewhere, avoid someone or be something.

We are sitting. Accepting. Knowing.

:wave: .

DairyLama

@Shoshin said:
However when push comes to shove, I’m in the camp of where either way, it’s all in the mind…

The suttas give the distinct impression that the realms are actually different levels of existence, though many western Buddhists choose to interpret them as psychological states. You will find a wide range of views in the different Buddhist schools on this question, as you will on the related topics of rebirth and karma.
Personally I don't find these questions relevant to daily practice, and I am content to leave them "on the back burner".

vinlyn

@lobster said:
remirth[sic]

Love it!

Chaz

@Shoshin said:
May the comments of this thread continue to find the readers & participants well… (I’m just trying out new approaches at the beginning of each "thread" )

>

Why not just try just getting to the point?

No matter what you try like that, people are likely, sooner or later, to come to feel that it's just pretentious, boring, and annoying.

I know that's not your intent.

I'd love someone to say, "Greetings Constipated Sangha!", or "Piss off dharma brothers and sisters!", or "In the name of JESUS, go screw yourself!".

Vastmind

@Chaz said:

I'd love someone to say, "Greetings Constipated Sangha!", or "Piss off dharma brothers and sisters!", or "In the name of JESUS, go screw yourself!".

I think I'm wrong for laughing so hard at this ....lolololol

Shoshin

@Chaz said:

. :coffee: ..

When it comes to Dharma practice, it's a 24/7/365 occupation and "Practice makes perfect @Chaz practice makes perfect" (but you already know this)

At times we're the "lesson", sometimes the "teacher", other times perhaps the "student"

This is what's so intriguing about the Dharma....It all depend on how one chooses to see things...

And in regards to "Greetings Constipated Sangha!" What can I say..."Shit Happens"... . ..

. ..

....

federica

Or doesn't, as is the frustrating case with constipation. But the eventual fall-out is to be fearfully anticipated....! .

DairyLama

Nah, it's all in the mind... .

federica

That's what you think.....! .

caz

Heaven and Hell are appearances to mind...but then again so is this human life.

federica

This human Life IS heaven Or Hell. It's what we make of it.

Hamsaka

Heaven - Hell and other Realms …All in the Mind

where else would they be :buck: .

Shoshin

@SpinyNorman said:
Nah, it's all in the mind... .

. :coffee: .. Well thanks for the reassurance ...For a minute there, I thought I was going out of my mind . :screwy: ...

Buddhadragon

@Shoshin: . :coffee: ..You seem to be drinking too much coffee lately.
Or is that "char"?

Shoshin

@DhammaDragon said:
Shoshin: . :coffee: ..You seem to be drinking too much coffee lately.
Or is that "char"?

. :coffee: .. No coffee for me, I don't touch the stuff - I'm strictly a Oolong char girl.. (But I use a cyber "coffee" mug to drink from ) . ..

DairyLama

@Hamsaka said:
where else would they be :buck: .

Or where else would the mind be? .

Shoshin

@SpinyNorman said:
Or where else would the mind be? .

. :hiding: .. ?

DairyLama

Buddhism is a broad church and opinions will vary. I wouldn't worry about it though.

federica

That's a rare time I've seen 'Buddhism' and 'church' appear in a sentence, positively.... .

Hamsaka

@SpinyNorman said:
Or where else would the mind be? .

Right here .

Shoshin

@Hamsaka said:
Right here .

. :coffee: .. And where's here ? . ..

pegembara

Time (past, present, future) and space (here, there) are mind's creation.

Existence in the world implies time and space. One exists within a particular period in a particular space or locality. If one passes beyond time and beyond space, it is not possible to speak of existence with reference to such a one. To speak of both time and space one needs a point of reference, e.g. A is 50 years old. This means 50 years have passed since the event of A's birth. If A is not born, it is impossible to speak of "time" or existence with reference to him. Similarly with space. Without points of reference it is not possible to grasp space. There is a definite distance between any two specific points. Nor can one speak of direction without a point of reference. When the notion of "I," which is the point of personal reference, is eradicated, one goes beyond time, beyond space, and beyond causality.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/desilva/wheel407.html

Shoshin

@pegembara said:
Time (past, present, future) and space (here, there) are mind's creation.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/desilva/wheel407.html

. :coffee: .. But in the mean time, where's Willy ? . ..

Shoshin

. :coffee: .. The mind (so it would seem) is never in the place that 'you' are hoping to find it... Well it is and it isn't... . :om: ..

federica

@Shoshin said: But in the mean time, where's Willy ? . ..

>

I take it you mean Wally...? (I hope....!)

Shoshin

@federica said:
I take it you mean Wally...? (I hope....!)

. .. You're right "Where's Willy" has something to do with Canadian money...Now I feel like a real Wally . :-/ ..

DairyLama

@pegembara said:
Time (past, present, future) and space (here, there) are mind's creation.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/desilva/wheel407.html

So when we get enlightened we go to a dimension beyond space and time? Cool! .

DairyLama

@federica said:
I take it you mean Wally...? (I hope....!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where's_Wally?

Another fine British invention! .

Toraldris

@SpinyNorman said:
Another fine British invention! .

Learn something new every day. I've only ever heard of "Where's Waldo?", and didn't know it was different in the UK.

how

Around here, and according to the urban dictionary a willy is a slang expression that refers to the compass of the average man's brain..

pegembara

@SpinyNorman said:
So when we get enlightened we go to a dimension beyond space and time? Cool! .

It probably depends on where we are standing, this or the opposite shore. Or should I say from where one is looking from. : )

Many neurological studies have confirmed that we do have a sense of past, present, and future. This evidence has led to the proposal that the brain represents time with an internal “clock” that emits neural ticks (the “pacemaker-accumulator” model). However, some recent studies have challenged this traditional view, and suggest that the brain represents time in a spatially distributed way, by detecting the activation of different neural populations. Although we perceive events as occurring in the past, present, or future, these concepts may just be part of a psychological frame in which we experience material changes in space.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2011-04-scientists-spacetime-dimension.html#jCp

http://ed.ted.com/lessons/the-fundamentals-of-space-time-part-1-andrew-pontzen-and-tom-whyntie

Historical events have in them the same time characteristic as stories that are just creations of human imagination. Both contain in
them the time concepts of earlier, the later, the past the present and the future; this again suggests that past really is similar to
memory of events.

Future appears to be a projection created by our past experiences stored in our memory. The fact that the present which gives us
the most real feel of time cannot be measured while the inaccessible past and future can be measured as durations strongly
suggests that the way we perceive time ( present-ism or the block universe view ) is an illusion.

http://www.timephysics.com/

DairyLama

Some interesting ideas, but how do we develop insight into impermanence without a direct experience of change?

Buddhadragon

@SpinyNorman said:
Or where else would the mind be? .

In the reality that we perceive with our skandhas and take for the Reality?

grackle

As usual the experience of cultivation can open many doors. Not all that you experience is useful for liberation. Many years ago I begin to see bodies dissolve into skeletons. From time to time. Nothing special. Just another dimension of mind.

Jason

Yes, the mind in the linchpin. Heaven and hell, pleasure and pain, happiness in suffering all arise in the mind. We can feel exclusively painful feelings like beings in hell regardless of whether or not we're in a hell realm, just as we can experience pleasant feelings like those of devas whether or not we're in heaven. That's why the end of suffering can be found in this fathom-long body, not the ends of the cosmos.

David

@SpinyNorman said:
Some interesting ideas, but how do we develop insight into impermanence without a direct experience of change?

How could someone not have a direct experience of change?

DairyLama

@ourself said:
How could someone not have a direct experience of change?

See the ideas referenced above by @pegembara