Fear
betaboy
Veteran
Fear is powerful. It is basic. The urge to survive and fear are in fact interrelated. Fear keeps you aware, alert, protects you from external danger. But it is also true that fear could shape our philosophical views. The belief in god, for instance ... there may be no proof but the fear of what might happen after death could make us believe in god.
Then there is rebirth. Fear applies here too. What if I take birth again? Worse still, what if I take birth in worse conditions? So the belief in rebirth might even be rooted in the fear of rebirth.
So my point is, do we explore fear, especially the subconscious fears? Is it possible that most things we do - religion, philosophy - are simply ways to deal with fear? Do they have any intrinsic value at all?
Comments
Of course.
I take every belief that humans hold, or that I could potentially hold, and ask not only if there is evidence to support it... but what other reasons might compel belief even in the absence of evidence. Fear is one of the most compelling, especially for such things as an afterlife. We're fearful beings, and of so many things! It can be useful as the OP said, but it can also hinder us and lead us to believe things for bad reasons.
The delusion that we're separate or enduring entities doesn't help!
I think they CAN be, but not across the board.
Also we should find that sweet spot where we're informed by fear, but not controlled by fear.
I think you are focusing on the symptom of a delusion and are mistakenly extrapolating that to address that symptom is to deal with it's cause.
Fear is the ego's response to any threat. This fear needs not to be subverted, embraced or avoided but simply needs to be allowed to arise , live & pass on and not to be identified with, as with any other phenomena.
A Buddhist practice is to move towards sufferings cessation and fear is only one small piece of that suffering.
You could have a point, though I've never heard anyone complain much about being reborn. To the contrary, no matter how much it's painted as a negative never-ending cycle in Buddhism... people seem to prefer the idea of being reborn to not being reborn. They wrongly conceive of it in terms of existence & non-existence. This leads them to question how Nirvana is "a good thing", and they may not even pursue Buddhism further because of that.
Insight into not-self and emptiness resolves such problems by removing the "me" that's reborn or not reborn from the equation, making it impersonal and therefore not a point of fear (i.e. annihilationism) or desire (i.e. eternalism). It's easy to see where so many misconceptions come from, when we're still steeped in delusions of self.
A Buddha has no fear. That is why there is Buddhism. Fear makes us suffer.
Thanks for all the comments.
The reason I mention fear (rather than desire etc.) is because fear is more basic. It's been there ever since we learnt to make fire to ward off animals - and even before. So it stands to reason that maybe, just maybe, fear guides (at least subconsciously) most of our actions.
For me, honestly, it is the fear of rebirth that guides my actions. For a theist, it could be fear of god or hell. Strangely, hell or god doesn't scare me. But I am terrified by the idea of rebirth.
Here's a couple of A.A. one-liners about fear:
A common topic of discussion is about not avoiding fear (like we used to with drinking), but facing it, going through it, and getting past it.
I kinda think all spiritual paths should be scary; they should help us to do the things that frighten us most. For me it was getting honest about myself and my past and making amends to people I'd harmed. That was tough. One of the persons was my mother who had disowned me ten years prior over my behaviour towards my wife and children. And then there were my ex-wife and children who I'd not had any contact with for years. And then there were financial amends which scared the pants off me.
But dealing with all this stuff, with the help of a good A.A. sponsor, helped me get rid of the guilt I experienced from my past.
False
Evidence
Appearing
Real
I don't know if I would call that fear or respect. I know that fire, if left alone will consume all it can and so I take the proper precautions but I don't have a fear of fire, I respect it.
Personally I don't think fear is a good motivator for compassionate behavior. That is, if it is based on fear, is it really true compassion? Are others inseparable or pawns in our own karmic persuits?
I don't think fear of the unknown is very healthy either but then I have an odd feeling we go where we truly think we go.
Fear would be an excellent precursor to self-ish behavior (small self-ish). Think of how D.O. works; compassion does not rise from fearful, small self/ego preservation. Small self-centeredness/ego could hardly arise from anything but ignorance of the Dharma, so fear might not be foundational at all. Aversion, Greed and Ignorance are foundational in Buddhist creed, rather than fear.
Fear is an off-shoot of Ignorance.
Fear protects the body, the physical being. It is part of the monkey being. It is a common exploration in spiritual martial arts, where we learn to overcome our fear in order to move towards attacks and fight and behave independently of the natural inclinations. How you apply this knowledge is part of real practice.
Imagined fear, I believe one of the sutra examples is the rope mistaken for a venomous snake, is monkey mind fear. This is overcome through sitting with arisings including rebirth fantasies, death fantasies and other rope used to hang around on . . .
You knew that but are still afraid of Mr Cushion . . . aka Nothing . . .
:wave: .
I think this is where science steps in.
Do you mean rebirth as in just having to come back here (to samsara) and go through it all over again? Or do you mean you are afraid you'll take rebirth as a toad because you stuck firecrackers up their bums as a kid or adult? You know me, I ask this seriously without me having already answered your question for you
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That in particular is not a fear I have, nor have I ever contemplated a fear of taking rebirth. I can certainly see what all the drama is about, samsara SUCKS, especially if you are human.
I took a test on Facebook to determine what I will be reborn as, and I got 'human'. My good friend on the East Coast got 'dove'. Well, at least I can be prepared . . .
I am so glad FarceBook continues such essential flutterby services and you inform us twitterati and future unborners . . .
. (gosh any more posts like this and I could be unfriended) . . .
lol, I meant the former - coming back to this world and doing the same thing, going through the same thing .... the very thought is frightening. I am not talking about the pain alone here, i am talking about the utter helplessness. If rebirth is true, you can't even control where you're going to be born next ... this itself is quite scary, isn't it?
And I am not even a full-fledged believer of rebirth - despite that, it is scary. The very idea 'what if rebirth is true' .... the very speculation is disturbing.
Only to those whose practice is in some way flawed or who have accumulated too much negative Kamma. Practice makes perfect. So if you don't practise it stands to reason that there is a flaw in the plan...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html
So just keep walking the path.
Cheers!
I've not given it that kind of thought, having been QUITE distracted by the here and now :buck: BUT I do see your point, it's just another step or two more existential.
I guess if I knew it was likely I'd relive this life again, it would be a powerful force for change! There are parts of my life I'd regret having to re-experience, but quite a bit I'd be fine re-experiencing, too.
Perhaps the helplessness you mention is the 'sickness' and the Buddha's 'prescription' is the 'cure'. I think most people are convinced of their helplessness, and being helpless has too many secondary gains to be challenged (there's a lot of relief in blaming everyone and everything for one's own failures).
And I am not even a full-fledged believer of rebirth - despite that, it is scary. The very idea 'what if rebirth is true' .... the very speculation is disturbing. >
Here are some words from Don Juan to help bolster your courage:
Here are some more:
I like the idea of being impeccable. It has integrity. However I am at heart more Taoist than Don Juan. Will settle for less than perfection . . . The fish will laugh at me but then I have no fear of being thought of as a born again marine creature . . . :wave: .
Get full control of your emotions feelings & thoughts, & all thoughts of fear will vanish for ever..Fear only resides in a persons mind, & is a false projection of what might happen to them..It could be the very near or far away future that they fear, but if they don't think about it they can't feel fear..Other unwanted emotions/feelings that will eventually vanish during training are: anger, sadness, loneliness, depression (most cases), jealousy, hatred, boredom in fact all negative emotions & feelings..It does take months of practice & understanding, but it's all in the mind..So if i we're to get attacked by something or someone i still won't feel fear, & that will leave me in the best possible mental state (& in the present moment) to deal with whatever is attacking me at the time..I'm also pretty sure that all fears are learned as we grow, & are learnt off other people as are all of our emotions & feelings positive & negative..If you think about re-incarnation or rebirth after you've trained, your'l find that you don't have to have been re-incarnated to be here now..I'd say it's our one & only go at the human race & it's there to be passed or failed for everyone, which includes the people that we think have already died such as young children & babies. :-)
That may be your experience. I fear it is not mine.
Most of my fear and negative emotions are based in the body.
Also anger, sadness, loneliness, jealously, hatred, boredom just move up a notch.
So for example I am angry at ignorance but patient with it
Sad at ignorance but aware of its causes
Lonely for wisdom but know where to look
Jealous of those able to perfect practice
Hate lack of compassion but know how to generate
and now I fear I am bored . . .
depression needs treatment
Can you be any of those things whilst meditating lobster, & how can you be angry & patient at the same time?lol.
Yes.
The same way you can write and LOL . . .
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In my example it is anger sublimated or transformed into patience, that allows more patience to arise . . .
I hope that makes sense.
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If not, here is another way of putting it . . .
http://yinyana.tumblr.com/day/2013/04/10
I'm with lobster. It's the body that fears. Thoughts are what's needed to control it.
Here is my example. As a self taught fisherman I have spent a good portion of my life on the open ocean. Needless to say I have had to deal with all kinds of fear at different times. Sometimes when it's rough out or if something goes wrong at a bad time I feel fear. I feel it in my chest or my bowels. I get anxious. I need to talk myself out of it. I need to focus on what's happening and figure out whether the fear is justified. Often it's not.
Sometimes tho, the fear is justified. That's the time to try to stay calm and figure out what to do next.
Now, I know and have known guys who don't seem to feel any fear at sea. Sometimes, not always, they are a menace to themselves and their crew. Sometimes they die doing something dumb or foolhardy. Fear can help to keep you alive.
Also, if I never felt any fear, it would be because I wasn't pushing any boundaries. What kind of life would that be?
Let's go fishing and feed our bodies to tiger sharks. We haz fearless plan.
http://www.khandro.net/animal_tiger.htm
I have no fear of god as a buddhist; rebirth is just a fallacy, as there is no eternal soul that will be reborn; subconsciousness- is not within my domain OF CONSCIOUSNESS that I experience - so the fear you describe is no fear at all @betaboy
They do.
However fear is a demon.
Life, the thing you are living, presents us with an opportunity. We may have over-riding characteristics, situational hindrances. Dharma offers us a middle route between the angelic bodhisattvas and demonic obstacles.
The intrinsic value is in dharma practice. I fear you are still not convinced of the need to practice. Can you afford not to? :orange: .