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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@zenguitar said:
A student, filled with emotion and crying, implored, "Why is there so much suffering?"
Shunryu Suzuki Roshi replied, "No reason.”
That answer could sound flippant to some but looking closer it's pretty astute.
If there was a reason for suffering that could imply it was decided somehow that we should suffer.
Suffering just is. If there was a reason for it then it's cessation would go against the natural order of things instead of being the result of practiced awareness.
Very interesting article by Ajahn Sumedho on the cessation of suffering and how we tend to focus so much on suffering that we tend to overlook the moment of its cessation. And the moment where our mind does not flit from the extreme of suffering to glee :
"The third Noble Truth is the truth of cessation. Not only do we let go of suffering and desire, we know when those things are not there. And this is a most important part of meditation practice, to really know when there is no suffering. Suffering ceases, and you are still alive, still aware, still breathing. It doesn’t mean that the world has ended, that everything has become blank; it means that the suffering has ceased. The suffering ends, and there is knowledge of the end of suffering.
If we don’t notice, we never know when there is no suffering. We only know when there is suffering — ‘I’m suffering.’ We react to it. Our memories tend to be about the extremely pleasant experiences, great successes, and so on, or great misery. We remember when we were very happy, successful, ecstatic, and when we were really down, and life was really painful. But we don’t remember when life wasn’t up or down; we don’t remember when there wasn’t any extreme. So memory itself tends to be the perceptions we form about extreme experiences. As we let go more and more of the heedless reactions, the grasping, then we find the mind that isn’t extreme. When we allow the world to be as it is — the sense world and so forth — we feel a sense of ease and peace. Even if things are not very nice, we can be at ease, and we can respond in an intelligent, gentle, kindly way, an appropriate way.
This is an example of the life of Gotama the Buddha. His response to the world after his enlightenment was — what? Compassion — tremendous compassion for other beings. He dedicated the remainder of his life, over forty years, solely to the welfare of other beings.
Cessation, then, is to be fully realized. In meditation, more and more one really sees what suffering is, its arousal, and the cessation of it. There is the knowing of it, what we call insight-knowledge. It’s not theoretical knowledge; it’s not symbolic knowledge; it’s a real insight — knowing from experience, from a clear understanding of the real thing."
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I prefer the term 'Nerd'... It's less 'offensive' to some of our Jewish-origin members.... particularly when coupled with the above video.
I do take your point though, and in the milder context I mentioned, accurate.
Some one might get offended from that? I find that laughable. It's a commonly used phrase to convey a humorous point.
I removed it.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Yes, some might get offended at that, if they have or had relatives who came to a poor end because of something one Nation's leader decided needed Ethnic cleansing.
From their PoV, from their objective, from their sensibilities, it's a painful term to think about, PARTICULARLY when trivialised and bandied about so carelessly and apparently 'laughably'.
"From their PoV, from their objective, from their sensibilities"- is your assumption. People being offended by the term Grammar Nazi is also your assumption. You act as if I described Auschwitz as a summer camp!
Thank you for being overly-sensitive to the exclusion of reason.
I don't know if there's an ontological reason, but I don't think it matters. What's important is whether there's something we can do about it; and I think the answer is yes.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I think suffering is a symptom of not taking responsibility by placing your own power and fulfilment into the hands of external situations/peoples. It's kind of like a game we play. We know that all is fine and dandy and that we are already whole but it's like we want to place certain things we like about ourselves OUTSIDE of ourselves so we think we somehow have to "get" that to be happy, not realising or forgetting the illusion at work in the process.
@Woah93 said:
I think suffering is a symptom of not taking responsibility by placing your own power and fulfilment into the hands of external situations/peoples. It's kind of like a game we play. We know that all is fine and dandy and that we are already whole but it's like we want to place certain things we like about ourselves OUTSIDE of ourselves so we think we somehow have to "get" that to be happy, not realising or forgetting the illusion at work in the process.
What an interesting thought. Of course we're aided in this delusion by being taught that "stuff" makes us happy from birth, with our first birthday and Christmas presents. What kind of a world would it be if, instead of showering gifts on our children, we taught them to meditate and find that spring of joy within themselves?
If there was a reason for suffering that could imply it was decided somehow that we should suffer.
What about the second Noble Truth?
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited October 2014
@SpinyNorman said:
What about the second Noble Truth?
I guess I was looking at the word reason as meaning a position that has been reasoned out and decided on... Any cause could also be a reason I suppose.
However if you look at Jefferys second post, he is talking about it in the same way I am.
As if it were decided it must be so.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Reading @pegembara's post I thought of it like if the true, enlightened nature of reality were like a still pond, perfectly happy and peaceful. Then due to our ignorance misperceiving the world we chase after the illusions of the world disrupting the peace and causing pain to ripple back on us.
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SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
@Hamsaka said:
Personally, I favor this question: "How can I cease to suffer?" That would back the old Zen master into a corner and force a more targeted response out of the old fart.
Thanks Hamsaka - that helps me see more clearly. Most people I come across who cry out about this want a way to be able to stop others suffering. After all, most of those I come across have pretty cushy lives - secure, freedom of speech, no worries about next meal, clothes or shelter. Personally, I have learnt that I am powerless over others - I can only control how much I do or don't suffer (crave, cling, whatever) - but are those who rail against worldwide suffering really complaining about others' suffering or their own? Can one be compassionate without suffering for others?
Lots of questions ... guess that's what exploring's about ... Thanks for reading
@Woah93 said:
I think suffering is a symptom of not taking responsibility by placing your own power and fulfilment into the hands of external situations/peoples. It's kind of like a game we play. We know that all is fine and dandy and that we are already whole but it's like we want to place certain things we like about ourselves OUTSIDE of ourselves so we think we somehow have to "get" that to be happy, not realising or forgetting the illusion at work in the process.
Pema Chodron has a lot of teachings like that. She calls the outside craving 'shenpa'. I forget the details of the teaching but there is a CD or text called 'getting unstuck'.
0
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@SarahT said: are those who rail against worldwide suffering really complaining about others' suffering or their own? Can one be compassionate without suffering for others?
Lots of questions ... guess that's what exploring's about ... Thanks for reading
I'm sure most of them are decrying other's suffering, it's unfortunately easy to see everywhere you look. And at some deepest dharma level, there's just suffering without an 'I' or 'you' or 'them'. This is samsara after all.
@SarahT said:
Lots of questions ... guess that's what exploring's about ... Thanks for reading
Can one be compassionate without suffering for others?
Herein lies the key. How to be compassionate without feeling pain?
The way to do this is to somehow transcend the world or samsara if you like as in "To be In the World but Not of the World". That is to realise sunyata.
"All living beings, whether born from eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they have form or do not have form; whether they are aware or unaware, whether they are not aware or not unaware, all living beings will eventually be led by me to the final Nirvana, the final ending of the cycle of birth and death. And when this unfathomable, infinite number of living beings have all been liberated, in truth not even a single being has actually been liberated."
"Why Subhuti? Because if a disciple still clings to the arbitrary illusions of form or phenomena such as an ego, a personality, a self, a separate person, or a universal self existing eternally, then that person is not an authentic disciple." http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamond_sutra_text/page3.html
The Diamond Sutra
Of course there is the fact that pain is avoided and avoiding pain helps life sustain itself.
Suffering is there to sustain life. Anxiety moves us into action to avoid a bad situation. Fear keeps us out of bad situations as we avoid them.
These are our animal instincts. This has all been said on this thread.
Are we as humans past this necessity? I avoid germs and wear gloves when handing potential dangers. No pain causes me to do this. I am not afraid but I still want to be sure.
An animal who is driven by suffering to sustain it's life will eat poop and get sick from it.
I would say that we have evolved a mechanism that is potentially better at sustaining our life than suffering and that suffering is no longer a necessity.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@Grayman said:
Of course there is the fact that pain is avoided and avoiding pain helps life sustain itself.
Suffering is there to sustain life. Anxiety moves us into action to avoid a bad situation. Fear keeps us out of bad situations as we avoid them.
These are our animal instincts. This has all been said on this thread.
Are we as humans past this necessity? I avoid germs and wear gloves when handing potential dangers. No pain causes me to do this. I am not afraid but I still want to be sure.
An animal who is driven by suffering to sustain it's life will eat poop and get sick from it.
I would say that we have evolved a mechanism that is potentially better at sustaining our life than suffering and that suffering is no longer a necessity.
Well said.
I do not fear getting hit by a car but I respect the fact that it could kill me.
Comments
Or not wanting to?
"Why not?" is also an appropriate answer when asking a "why?" question.
I think @pegembara and @bookworm has accurately answered the question.
Avijja is the cause of suffering.
That answer could sound flippant to some but looking closer it's pretty astute.
If there was a reason for suffering that could imply it was decided somehow that we should suffer.
Suffering just is. If there was a reason for it then it's cessation would go against the natural order of things instead of being the result of practiced awareness.
Very interesting article by Ajahn Sumedho on the cessation of suffering and how we tend to focus so much on suffering that we tend to overlook the moment of its cessation. And the moment where our mind does not flit from the extreme of suffering to glee :
"The third Noble Truth is the truth of cessation. Not only do we let go of suffering and desire, we know when those things are not there. And this is a most important part of meditation practice, to really know when there is no suffering. Suffering ceases, and you are still alive, still aware, still breathing. It doesn’t mean that the world has ended, that everything has become blank; it means that the suffering has ceased. The suffering ends, and there is knowledge of the end of suffering.
If we don’t notice, we never know when there is no suffering. We only know when there is suffering — ‘I’m suffering.’ We react to it. Our memories tend to be about the extremely pleasant experiences, great successes, and so on, or great misery. We remember when we were very happy, successful, ecstatic, and when we were really down, and life was really painful. But we don’t remember when life wasn’t up or down; we don’t remember when there wasn’t any extreme. So memory itself tends to be the perceptions we form about extreme experiences. As we let go more and more of the heedless reactions, the grasping, then we find the mind that isn’t extreme. When we allow the world to be as it is — the sense world and so forth — we feel a sense of ease and peace. Even if things are not very nice, we can be at ease, and we can respond in an intelligent, gentle, kindly way, an appropriate way.
This is an example of the life of Gotama the Buddha. His response to the world after his enlightenment was — what? Compassion — tremendous compassion for other beings. He dedicated the remainder of his life, over forty years, solely to the welfare of other beings.
Cessation, then, is to be fully realized. In meditation, more and more one really sees what suffering is, its arousal, and the cessation of it. There is the knowing of it, what we call insight-knowledge. It’s not theoretical knowledge; it’s not symbolic knowledge; it’s a real insight — knowing from experience, from a clear understanding of the real thing."
I prefer the term 'Nerd'... It's less 'offensive' to some of our Jewish-origin members.... particularly when coupled with the above video.
I do take your point though, and in the milder context I mentioned, accurate.
Some one might get offended from that? I find that laughable. It's a commonly used phrase to convey a humorous point.
I removed it.
Yes, some might get offended at that, if they have or had relatives who came to a poor end because of something one Nation's leader decided needed Ethnic cleansing.
From their PoV, from their objective, from their sensibilities, it's a painful term to think about, PARTICULARLY when trivialised and bandied about so carelessly and apparently 'laughably'.
Thank you for the gesture.
"From their PoV, from their objective, from their sensibilities"- is your assumption. People being offended by the term Grammar Nazi is also your assumption. You act as if I described Auschwitz as a summer camp!
Thank you for being overly-sensitive to the exclusion of reason.
I don't know if there's an ontological reason, but I don't think it matters. What's important is whether there's something we can do about it; and I think the answer is yes.
>
I answered via PM.
I think suffering is a symptom of not taking responsibility by placing your own power and fulfilment into the hands of external situations/peoples. It's kind of like a game we play. We know that all is fine and dandy and that we are already whole but it's like we want to place certain things we like about ourselves OUTSIDE of ourselves so we think we somehow have to "get" that to be happy, not realising or forgetting the illusion at work in the process.
What an interesting thought. Of course we're aided in this delusion by being taught that "stuff" makes us happy from birth, with our first birthday and Christmas presents. What kind of a world would it be if, instead of showering gifts on our children, we taught them to meditate and find that spring of joy within themselves?
If there was a reason for suffering that could imply it was decided somehow that we should suffer.
What about the second Noble Truth?
I guess I was looking at the word reason as meaning a position that has been reasoned out and decided on... Any cause could also be a reason I suppose.
However if you look at Jefferys second post, he is talking about it in the same way I am.
As if it were decided it must be so.
Reading @pegembara's post I thought of it like if the true, enlightened nature of reality were like a still pond, perfectly happy and peaceful. Then due to our ignorance misperceiving the world we chase after the illusions of the world disrupting the peace and causing pain to ripple back on us.
Thanks Hamsaka - that helps me see more clearly. Most people I come across who cry out about this want a way to be able to stop others suffering. After all, most of those I come across have pretty cushy lives - secure, freedom of speech, no worries about next meal, clothes or shelter. Personally, I have learnt that I am powerless over others - I can only control how much I do or don't suffer (crave, cling, whatever) - but are those who rail against worldwide suffering really complaining about others' suffering or their own? Can one be compassionate without suffering for others?
Lots of questions ... guess that's what exploring's about ... Thanks for reading
Pema Chodron has a lot of teachings like that. She calls the outside craving 'shenpa'. I forget the details of the teaching but there is a CD or text called 'getting unstuck'.
I'm sure most of them are decrying other's suffering, it's unfortunately easy to see everywhere you look. And at some deepest dharma level, there's just suffering without an 'I' or 'you' or 'them'. This is samsara after all.
Who cares as long as there is an escape from suffering?
:buck: .
Who shot that arrow? Point out the source shooter! No treatment yet, forget the bleeding . . . what sort of arrow is this?
More about arrows
http://explorations.chasrmartin.com/buddhist-texts/the-prajnaparamita-sutra/
:buck: .
Can one be compassionate without suffering for others?
Herein lies the key. How to be compassionate without feeling pain?
The way to do this is to somehow transcend the world or samsara if you like as in "To be In the World but Not of the World". That is to realise sunyata.
Without suffering how will you ever come to know what happiness is?
Of course there is the fact that pain is avoided and avoiding pain helps life sustain itself.
Suffering is there to sustain life. Anxiety moves us into action to avoid a bad situation. Fear keeps us out of bad situations as we avoid them.
These are our animal instincts. This has all been said on this thread.
Are we as humans past this necessity? I avoid germs and wear gloves when handing potential dangers. No pain causes me to do this. I am not afraid but I still want to be sure.
An animal who is driven by suffering to sustain it's life will eat poop and get sick from it.
I would say that we have evolved a mechanism that is potentially better at sustaining our life than suffering and that suffering is no longer a necessity.
Well said.
I do not fear getting hit by a car but I respect the fact that it could kill me.
I guess it all really comes down to being aware.