Where are you?
Cinorjer
Veteran
Once a visitor to a temple, wandering around the beautiful Zen gardens in Korea, came across a monk busy raking up a few leaves. This monk spoke English, since he smiled and waved and wished him a nice visit. The man decided to ask this one the question that had been on his mind all day.
"Excuse me," he said to the monk, "could I ask you what might turn out to be a stupid question?"
"Certainly," the monk said.
"Well, I read all about Zen before coming here. It's supposed to be about asking myself 'Who am I?' but I know who I am. I'm a husband and father and engineer and so on, depending on the situation. I understand all about dynamic systems and multitasking from my work. That's obviously not what you're talking about. So can you explain Zen to me?"
The monk shook his head. "You're obviously an educated, intelligent man. Maybe you need a much harder question. How about this: 'Where are you?'"
"Where am I?" The visitor looked around. "Well, in one sense of the question, I'm standing in a garden surrounded by trees, and I can also say that I'm in a country called Korea, on the planet Earth, and so on. So how does a Zen monk answer that question?"
The monk shrugged. "You'll never know until you ask."
The visitor said, "All right then, I'm asking. Where are you?"
The monk pointed to himself. "Right here, of course." Then he went back to raking leaves.
Was the monk's answer correct? Where are you?
Comments
I think both answers were correct. A third option would be the GPS co-ordinates.
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Physically or mentally?
So you are with the visitor.
Is there a difference?
I think there is. Being in a place doesn't necessarily mean mind is also here. I could be thinking something else, and this takes to me different place mentally. I am working hard is to keep the two together all the time.
The question is a comparison - both parties must agree the parameters of the comparison otherwise any answer is nonsense.
So would you say that's why so many Zen examples seem like nonsense to people? What, then would you say the question "Where are you?" is actually asking, in a Zen perspective?
Where are you? The right way to answer is, 'I'm where I am.'
RIght Now? Right here.
What, then would you say the question "Where are you?" is actually asking, in a Zen perspective?
I'm not sure - could you explain?
I was hoping you could explain, because I have no idea either.
He is being mindful. He is here in this moment, experiencing it.
Correct or incorrect is not the point.
There is just a monk who has awoken
and is pointing out how to do likewise...
I'm not a zen practitioner so any knowledge of the subject is from reading, speaking to people and documentaries.
My understanding of a zen transmission / koan is that it is a personal interaction between two initiates such that whatever passes between them is exclusively between them?
I'm not sure this is exclusive to zen - it's I suppose a sensible proposition based on a truth of the nature of interactions that is perhaps adopted by zen practitioners?
Communication is in a sense a series of comparison?
In that sense, the parameters seem to be agreed as far as practically possible within the parameters of the relationship of the participants of say like initiates.
The OP example doesn't indicate that any parameters were agreed to any sufficient extent between the participants - I say sufficient as the question itself seems a reworking of the age old 'why?'
Ah, @Zero I see where you're coming from.
One of the interesting questions I had when I first started practicing Zen was, if the koan-type interaction was exclusive and unique to that one situation between the two monks, or Master and Student, then why bother preserving it and passing it down as an example that you could learn from? That would be saying, "Here's an example of Zen in action, but since that's not you, then it won't actually mean anything."
While it's true that the exact behavior is unique to the people involved and event described, the koans, questions and responses follow a pattern. What seems like nonsense actually attempts to illustrate a point beyond words.
A lot of penetrating the Zen stories is learning to recognize what the story is an example of and then, even harder, learning not to over-think and over-analyse it.
"Where am I?" I'm right here. Where else could I be, but here-and-now? Of course, if I'm shoving a map at you, I might be actually asking you to point at some spot on a map. But in the context of the little story I've invented, the visitor is asking about Zen. If you were the monk, what answer could you give that the visitor would understand, and if you were the visitor, then what answer would make it clear?
"now"
" "
Sometimes I'm here....but I catch myself trying to be over there....or over there....or even back there.
Perhaps the answer to his first question is "I am myself"?
"Who am I"? = "Me" for above reasons. :-)
Reminds me of a book I once read called "Be here now".
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........ in the context of the little story I've invented, the visitor is asking about Zen. If you were the monk, what answer could you give that the visitor would understand, and if you were the visitor, then what answer would make it clear?
"Doesn't he know what an orange is....?"
Where are you?
. :wave: .. Who wants to know ? . :om: .. (If you're the repo man, I'm nowhere to be found) .
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Don't know.
Here, (hands a cup) drink some tea!
Sorry - I didn't mean the story was nonsense - I meant, within the context of the story, if I were asked the question, my inclination is "The question is a comparison - both parties must agree the parameters of the comparison otherwise any answer is nonsense / chaotic".
@Zero you have a fascinating mind.
How long is a piece of string?
I luvs raking leaves . . . however that is another story . . .
A while ago I was working in a Christian community setting. I was using a scythe to cut an area between a hedge and the vegetable plots. Ideal meditation. Later on the head of the community who had been watching me from the top of the main house, commented on how she was aware that I was in a contemplative scything mode . . .
These Christians, some of them can be almost Zen like . . .
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I think they call themselves "Christzens" .
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i think if the monk wanted he would have given a deeper answer - i don't know, but the other man would not have been able to comprehend him, so he would have answered - right here, of course - trying to bring him in present moment.
I'm not in the spotlight, I'm not in the dark, I'm not in the closet, I'm not in a park.
I'm not in the way and I'm not over there, I'm not in the middle, I'm not anywhere!
The visitor's emphasis is on "where" but the monk's is on "you". Same words, two different questions. Either one can be answered as long as you know which is which.
Hello?
Hello?
Who, what, where...?
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...How, when, which.....
Who am I? What am I? Where am I?
I am the awareness in which all of this takes place.
"Where are you?" Blowing in the winds of time and space...
IS that a Bob Dylan song?
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Losing my mind. But enjoying the process wherever possible :clap: ..
I finally figured out where I am!!
Right smack in the center. Of everything
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Wherever you go, there you are.
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Has anyone here ever heard of "On Having No Head" by Douglas Harding? I have it and made it through the first couple of chapters but jeezzz. Anyway, that's sort of what I mean, by being smack in the center of everything. It is an actual location, not a metaphor or abstraction. Makes my head hurt, even so.
I would have thought it more crowded.
Where are you?
Re-establishing the question.
Not at all! Weird huh.
The silent Guru in "Be here now" is my second master Guru. I belong to a fellowship that brought him to the United States.
I like the OP!
It makes you think about your relative position. 'Where are you?' well you are only ever here when you are present. So be present, and you know you are here. Think of being somewhere else and your not really here you are with the thought of being there.
In actuality, there is no real position you can state yourself to be, unless you describe your relationship to some other. So I am here and you are there. QED, we are relating to each other; and life is nothing without relationships is it?