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but I get a sense of satisfaction every time I help a person in need
Would seem to be a quality to develop skilfully in whatever manner shape or form we can . . .
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited October 2014
@Shoshin said:
I don't know if it's a built-in biological survival mechanism in the brain, but I get a sense of satisfaction every time I help a person in need (a feel good buzz-by-product of ones actions) also there's a feeling of warmth/gratitude I feel when someone helps or offers to help me. I'm under the impression this would be the case for most people, but then again I could be wrong...Perhaps I'm just selfish and this sense of satisfaction is the ego's way of rewarding itself...
Dukkha= Unsatisfactoriness
>
Striving to develop the 4 Brahma-Viharas, one detaches from emotions of personal gratification and focuses the entire Intention and Effort on the Action and its benefits to others. The reward of the effort resulting in positive kamma is sufficient, in and of itself, and need not be focused on, or considered as part of the process.
That's interesting....so where does this leave Sympathetic Joy "Muditā" =The pleasure that comes from delighting in other people's well-being rather than begrudging it....
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
That is still focused outwards. It is genuine joy for others. There is no benefit to be gained by using it as gratification for one's ego to delight in
@federica said:
The reward of the effort resulting in positive kamma is sufficient, in and of itself,
But isn't this the ego's expectation of a "reward" of positive karma ?
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
That's the rub...
Altruism is near impossible and that's ok.
Help even if it feels good.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Shoshin said: But isn't this the ego's expectation of a "reward" of positive karma ?
>
No.
We already know, that positive actions bring about positive results. So this is neither a factor, nor a motivator. It just is what it is.
No need to dwell on it or think about it.
@Shoshin said:
I don't know if it's a built-in biological survival mechanism in the brain, but I get a sense of satisfaction every time I help a person in need (a feel good buzz-by-product of ones actions) also there's a feeling of warmth/gratitude I feel when someone helps or offers to help me.
Yes, this seems to go beyond an evolutionary enlightened self-interest.
In my experience when having compassion I literally feel like I can feel and see behind the eyes of whoever I'm having compassion for-it's like I see what they see and I see them as an innocent human who wants to be happy like everyone else. I feel like I see them as they truly are whereas before I had assumptions and I saw them through extra unnecessary layers.
I don't have the same experience if I were to say to myself "oh I should be nice or good;" like from a point of view similar to a rule or something (even though it is a positive rule anyway)...but it's much more powerful and true to me when I can put my entire awareness behind the eyes of that other person and really see what they see-I completely escape myself in way...I'm flooded with love, energy, no fear, happiness...it's amazing. compassion is the most powerful experience I've ever felt and even at times when I feel so weak mentally or physically, compassion completely heals me.
also, I've noticed no matter if I have compassion for someone very close to me vs some stranger...the experience is the same. Which is interesting...since one would assume I may feel more strongly for the one more close to me.
4
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
This is just me but, I don't think compassion is putting yourself in another's shoes. I see compassion as actually being another person in their shoes. You have to really care about what they do and value what they value or you can not really understand how they feel. But then my needs are very little and I am bothered by little. Putting myself in another's shoes rarely brings me to the point of being able to empathize.
I don't pity people. It feels too close to seeing them as less. I can be sad for another human being but I always try to satisfy their needs based on what they see as important not as what I see as important.
If you see a man going to step in shallow puddle, you notify him of the puddle but let him do so if he wishes. You do not feel sorry for him when he steps in the puddle but not because you think he deserves it if he would not listen but because you relize that although you don't like getting your feet wet, it does not mean he doesn't like it. He may just enjoy it.
If you see a man going to step into a hole with spikes, do you stop him? I would to talk to him and fully consider, is this what he would want in the future. Would the future him be happy with this? Essentially this is my tough love. If I let him continue this, will he be happy with his decision later? If the answer is no then I will set some ground rules.
As @Grayman says there is a difference between empathy (part of manys reason or development into compassion).
People with a natural or developed empathy can relate to others Dukkha and this may be a start.
In the higher sense, compassion does not require empathy, indeed it transcends the need for it.
Compassion on this level is innate expression, independent of a sense of identifying with an object.
One might say the compassion of the Buddha is not based on ignorance but is independent of attachment to form.
Alkies in A.A. stay sober by the practise of compassion (though we don't really use that word 'compassion'; but that's what it is).
I don't know how familiar you guys are with the 12 Step process, but I once listened to an alkie spill his Step 5 (kind of his life story - but we do it in a structured way) to me and while he was sharing, I was thinking "Yes, I've done that!", "Yes, that happened to me", and "Yes, I felt like that" and I was really overcome with love for this guy; you know the simple wish that he be happy. He'd had a tough time.
As he continued sharing, I realised this guy was 'me', same background, same story, same guilt and the thought struck me, if I can love this guy this way - unconditionally - why do I struggle to love myself this way?
@lobster said:
As Grayman says there is a difference between empathy (part of manys reason or development into compassion).
People with a natural or developed empathy can relate to others Dukkha and this may be a start.
In the higher sense, compassion does not require empathy, indeed it transcends the need for it.
Compassion on this level is innate expression, independent of a sense of identifying with an object.
One might say the compassion of the Buddha is not based on ignorance but is independent of attachment to form.
@Tosh said:
As he continued sharing, I realised this guy was 'me', same background, same story, same guilt and the thought struck me, if I can love this guy this way - unconditionally - why do I struggle to love myself this way?
I usually find that I'm more accepting of other people when I'm more accepting of myself. It's like that old saying "Charity begins at home".
@Tosh said:
As he continued sharing, I realised this guy was 'me', same background, same story, same guilt and the thought struck me, if I can love this guy this way - unconditionally - why do I struggle to love myself this way?
Perhaps it's because you are not trying to change the way he is. If we are totally satisfied with the way we are, why are we working on making changes to our view, speech, acts and so on? If there are things that need work perhaps some of those things aren't so loveable.
When I am chewing myself out over something dumb I have done, I find myself being much harsher than I would with one of my kids or friends for example.
I am set apart from the societal views of compassion.
Often people will donate their lives to helping those in need and are given the metaphorical badge of 'Compassionate Person'. Are all these people really compassionate people? Do they lives of compassion?
I would say not always and not a lot of the time. Many keep their compassion in their back pocket until certain conditions present themselves. I do not deny that these people are sympathetic to good causes but they are not necessarily compassionate people. Consider how they treat their family, neglect, anger, lack of consideration or kindness. A person can donate their life to helping the poor and then go home and beat their son, or simply forget the needs of their son in their tunneled vision for their cause. The hardest questions are, How do they treat their enemies, and opposition, the bully or the murderer?
To me living compassion is not about helping the needy. It is a mindset, or more importantly a mode of being, that affects everyone you meet without condition. The action that comes of compassion is not compassion itself but the result of a need deeply embedded in a compassionate person.
@Shoshin said:
When it comes to compassion, (or any other Dharma practice) we must operate in a conventional world, but with an ultimate goal in mind
I don't want to derail the thread any more than it needs to but compassion from my perspective is a word that means very little unless you are practicing it. So whilst I have compassion for the people suffering from the Ebola epidemic, the people suffering tragic loss and death in Syria and Iraq, the homeless person on the street mistreated by drunken yobs, it is just a word, unless you feel its true meaning in your heart and it makes a difference to you, that motivates you to do something to make a change no matter how insignificant it may appear to others.
What is the ultimate goal @shoshin you describe? Perhaps a discussion on that topic would become very rewarding if there was an ultimate goal that people could agree on. Otherwise this is just a discussion on thoughts, and thoughts are meaningless except at the time they arise, and perhaps stimulate a change in you that can make a change elsewhere in the world. Or otherwise they are just waves that disappear into the mind stream that may yet arise again, and again.
I was fortunate enough to have a young 16 year old girl who my wife and I had supported to travel and give aid to a small town in Uganda. The charity that took her there was helping a very small community become self-sufficient and educated, but nearby villages were jealous of the aid they were receiving and there were nasty repercussions, and she had to be under 24 hour armed guard. The tears in her eyes as she told us of the toils of her and her other aid workers to build wells, assist building a school and other sustainable efforts brought tears to our eyes, but nothing prepared us for the fact that she spent hours talking through a fence to a child in a neighbouring village whose lives were miserable and barely sustainable.
Compassion is not something you pull out of a hat, it is what you develop as you see the world for what it is.
Develop and nurture it. That is all I can offer, as one day, it will be all that may sustain you.
@vinlyn said:
Anataman, a very good example of what I was saying earlier in this thread. Action that makes a/some difference.
Spot on. The Buddha didn't get Enlightened and then live out the rest of his days in the forest, doing metta from a mat, did he? He chilled for a while, then got off his arse and set about teaching others.
For the most part we live, work, play and think along conventional lines... living in Samsara= the mind turned outwardly we tend to get lost in its projection..
The ultimate goal is to turn the mind outward so as to recognise its true nature=Enlightenment...
Forgive me @Shoshin - I must disagree, and I do like to disagree, so don't take this the wrong way, you can't turn your mind in any other direction than the one it is facing, you can't see the back of your head any more than you can see the great barrier reef in Australia by looking from the top of the Shard! Your mind is your mind and it's looking at this screen, and thoughts are jumping out already in a counter-argumnetitive mode - I know ;-) ...\ lol / ...
You are enlightened already, but don't let me pull the wool over your eyes any more than you want me too!
@SpinyNorman said:
Are you saying that compassion without action is invalid or worthless?
Yes and no.
If you can do something, and don't, then how you feel all warm and fuzzy about someone's plight is "worthless" (to use your term). In fact, I would suggest that it actually makes one selfish since their warm fuzziness only makes them feel good about themselves.
I will present a couple of caveats. What if you literally cannot help? For example, I feel great empathy toward the people in Syria and Iraq whose lives are being ruined by ISIL. Or what if you would like to help in some situation, but can't figure out how to help.
**But I reject the idea that it's simply either/or. ** To me it's a continuum. If my neighbor, who lives close to the cushion financially (retired, fixed income) donates $25 to a charity, it may be somewhat inconsequential to that charity in the big scheme of things, but represents a hardship for that particular giver. If Warren Buffet donates $1 million to the same charity, it means a lot to that charity, but virtually nothing to Buffet since he is worth $44 billion.
That's my take on it. Yours may be different...and that's fine.
I will present a couple of caveats. What if you literally cannot help? For example, I feel great empathy toward the people in Syria and Iraq whose lives are being ruined by ISIL. Or what if you would like to help in some situation, but can't figure out how to help.
Yes, and I'm saying that in such circumstances we shouldn't feel our compassion is worthless or invalid. In circumstances where we can do something practical but don't, then yes, it would be fair to ask whether it really is compassion that we're feeling.
It is smart compassion for a business owner to ensure his employees are safe and well off by not over extending himself in donations. Providing jobs is a sustainable method of feeding people and donations are not. This owner is exercising compassion and doing it in smart way. I am not saying that many do not seek only power or importance, but that intention is important.
A person can move to africa and take care of the people there but do so to make up for guilt, or to feel like a good person or for self purpose but none of this is compassion.
Compassion is not found in action alone, nor is action an accurate measure of ones compassion.
Ultimate wakefulness is based on generosity with respect to compassion. 'Ultimate' is how we ARE and relative is what we do. We are generous because our true nature is empty or in other words we cannot grasp anything. Our neurosis is caused by trying to grasp things even though that is impossible. For the reason that we have nothing to grasp we can give and give and give. That is why ultimate wakefulness has to do with the paramita (perfection) of generosity.
Relative bodhicitta is based on the discipline paramita. The five precepts could be an example. Relative is how we take our generosity and work with the situations in our life.
@Jeffrey said:
We are generous because our true nature is empty or in other words we cannot grasp anything. Our neurosis is caused by trying to grasp things even though that is impossible. For the reason that we have nothing to grasp we can give and give and give. That is why ultimate wakefulness has to do with the paramita (perfection) of generosity.
Makes sense, but how do you have anything to give if you never had grasped anything in the first place?
For the reason that we have nothing to grasp we can give and give and give. That is why ultimate wakefulness has to do with the paramita (perfection) of generosity.
True.
We are limited beings. One needs to work within those limits whilst being aware of the graduation into wakefulness that @Jeffrey mentions . . . :thumbsup: .
@Grayman said:
Makes sense, but how do you have anything to give if you never had grasped anything in the first place?
Everyone is conditioned from birth to grasp. Babies are conditioned by their parents to orient themselves towards bright-colored objects, toward mother and father, toys, etc. It's a process of acculturation to the material world.
@Jeffrey said:
Ultimate wakefulness is based on generosity with respect to compassion. 'Ultimate' is how we ARE and relative is what we do. We are generous because our true nature is empty or in other words we cannot grasp anything. Our neurosis is caused by trying to grasp things even though that is impossible. For the reason that we have nothing to grasp we can give and give and give. That is why ultimate wakefulness has to do with the paramita (perfection) of generosity.
Relative bodhicitta is based on the discipline paramita. The five precepts could be an example. Relative is how we take our generosity and work with the situations in our life.
Using a touchscreen I hit the lol button on this. Sorry. Dont want anyone to missunderstand
I don't know if it's a built-in biological survival mechanism in the brain, but I get a sense of satisfaction every time I help a person in need (a feel good buzz-by-product of ones actions) also there's a feeling of warmth/gratitude I feel when someone helps or offers to help me.">
It would appear there is what has been described as the "moral molecule". More than just thought, but a hormone fosters connection and empathy.
Thats a new word people and it means you can be further deceived into thinking your not what you are...
Compassion for all anamoralacules everywhere!
TED talks - don't you just love them for the distractions, and knowledge dressed up as wisdom!
There is a place where you can go and sit and let these things settle out. The muddied waters, loved by lotus flowers that filter out the impurities, and you can just sit atop it for a while, serenely being who you are - cue cushion... Then go diving back into the pool!
@anataman said:
Forgive me Shoshin - I must disagree, and I do like to disagree, so don't take this the wrong way, you can't turn your mind in any other direction than the one it is facing, you can't see the back of your head any more than you can see the great barrier reef in Australia by looking from the top of the Shard! Your mind is your mind and it's looking at this screen, and thoughts are jumping out already in a counter-argumnetitive mode - I know ;-) ...\ lol / ...
You are enlightened already, but don't let me pull the wool over your eyes any more than you want me too!
Metta
Nothing to forgive @anataman, but if you insist then "I" forgive "you" ! (As I forgave my "self" many moons ago)
BodhiDharma once said (Well thus I had read)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind-The mind is the root from which all things grow-If you can understand the mind....Everything else is included!"
Definitions in a "nutshell"
Samsara=Mind turned outward lost in its projection
Enlightenment= Mind turned inward recognising its true nature
@Grayman that is a great question. I don't really understand myself. I have read that in 'dana' (giving) in order for it to be dana paramita the giving has to be unified with wisdom of emptiness. Thus I have read that giving is empty of giver, gift, and recipient. Still it's hard to understand.
Perhaps it's because you are not trying to change the way he is. ** If we are totally satisfied with the way we are, why are we working on making changes to our view, speech, acts and so on? If there are things that need work perhaps some of those things aren't so loveable. **
When I am chewing myself out over something dumb I have done, I find myself being much harsher than I would with one of my kids or friends for example.
Your post reminds me of what I read last night out of David Brazier's book "Not Everything is Impermanent" . He makes a case for complete acceptance of ourselves exactly as we are, rather than 'satisfaction with' how we are. If aversion is the reason we submit to self-change, it sort of spoils it from the git-go. What then seeks improvement is self-compassion, is my guess, and theoretically, the results of such change ought to be of higher caliber and strength.
In Brazier's case, his premise is based upon that we are completely accepted and tolerated by some objective, more refined POV. And me, a dedicated (so I thought) nontheist :buck: .
@Hamsaka I think change can also be sort of a 'ripple' in our mind of sensitivity. We can be using our neurosis to 'doctor up' a change. That would be one kind where we should get out of our own way and let the muddy water rest and calm. That would be a 'doctoring' of our experience.
But I would distinguish that from a 'ripple' in our buddhanature. A intuitive change in the citta like a plant grows towards the sunlight?
@Hamsaka said:
robot said:
In Brazier's case, his premise is based upon that we are completely accepted and tolerated by some objective, more refined POV. And me, a dedicated (so I thought) nontheist :buck: .
I can't comment on the case this fellow has made for self acceptance because I haven't read it.
I will say that my own desire for change originally came out of a troubled childhood followed by teenage years filled with failure and drug abuse. There was little to salvage as far as acceptance went at that point. How does one accept behaviour that is destructive to oneself and others?
Most of the more important changes for me have come through some degree of pain, depression or dissatisfaction.
Now, closing in on 60, I have found out about self acceptance. Earlier, I would have said that I either don't understand it or don't believe in it.
The notion of self love is still baffling to me. Not something I spend much time on.
Comments
Would seem to be a quality to develop skilfully in whatever manner shape or form we can . . .
>
Striving to develop the 4 Brahma-Viharas, one detaches from emotions of personal gratification and focuses the entire Intention and Effort on the Action and its benefits to others. The reward of the effort resulting in positive kamma is sufficient, in and of itself, and need not be focused on, or considered as part of the process.
That's interesting....so where does this leave Sympathetic Joy "Muditā" =The pleasure that comes from delighting in other people's well-being rather than begrudging it....
That is still focused outwards. It is genuine joy for others. There is no benefit to be gained by using it as gratification for one's ego to delight in
But isn't this the ego's expectation of a "reward" of positive karma ?
That's the rub...
Altruism is near impossible and that's ok.
Help even if it feels good.
>
No.
We already know, that positive actions bring about positive results. So this is neither a factor, nor a motivator. It just is what it is.
No need to dwell on it or think about it.
Yes, this seems to go beyond an evolutionary enlightened self-interest.
That sounds quite 'empty' to me.......Just saying . :rolleyes: .. .
..
positive actions bring about positive results
For whom ?
Actually, the person who wrote that has since removed it. So I don't know remember whom you should ask your question to.
But it is an interesting question.
You don't need to worry. Just give for giving. Enjoying takes care of itself.
Yes, and maybe we are over-analysing here. A bit like we were in this thread: http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/21920/helping-others-for-all-the-wrong-reasons#latest
In my experience when having compassion I literally feel like I can feel and see behind the eyes of whoever I'm having compassion for-it's like I see what they see and I see them as an innocent human who wants to be happy like everyone else. I feel like I see them as they truly are whereas before I had assumptions and I saw them through extra unnecessary layers.
I don't have the same experience if I were to say to myself "oh I should be nice or good;" like from a point of view similar to a rule or something (even though it is a positive rule anyway)...but it's much more powerful and true to me when I can put my entire awareness behind the eyes of that other person and really see what they see-I completely escape myself in way...I'm flooded with love, energy, no fear, happiness...it's amazing. compassion is the most powerful experience I've ever felt and even at times when I feel so weak mentally or physically, compassion completely heals me.
also, I've noticed no matter if I have compassion for someone very close to me vs some stranger...the experience is the same. Which is interesting...since one would assume I may feel more strongly for the one more close to me.
That's an excellent post, @inyo ....
This is just me but, I don't think compassion is putting yourself in another's shoes. I see compassion as actually being another person in their shoes. You have to really care about what they do and value what they value or you can not really understand how they feel. But then my needs are very little and I am bothered by little. Putting myself in another's shoes rarely brings me to the point of being able to empathize.
I don't pity people. It feels too close to seeing them as less. I can be sad for another human being but I always try to satisfy their needs based on what they see as important not as what I see as important.
If you see a man going to step in shallow puddle, you notify him of the puddle but let him do so if he wishes. You do not feel sorry for him when he steps in the puddle but not because you think he deserves it if he would not listen but because you relize that although you don't like getting your feet wet, it does not mean he doesn't like it. He may just enjoy it.
If you see a man going to step into a hole with spikes, do you stop him? I would to talk to him and fully consider, is this what he would want in the future. Would the future him be happy with this? Essentially this is my tough love. If I let him continue this, will he be happy with his decision later? If the answer is no then I will set some ground rules.
As @Grayman says there is a difference between empathy (part of manys reason or development into compassion).
People with a natural or developed empathy can relate to others Dukkha and this may be a start.
In the higher sense, compassion does not require empathy, indeed it transcends the need for it.
Compassion on this level is innate expression, independent of a sense of identifying with an object.
One might say the compassion of the Buddha is not based on ignorance but is independent of attachment to form.
Alkies in A.A. stay sober by the practise of compassion (though we don't really use that word 'compassion'; but that's what it is).
I don't know how familiar you guys are with the 12 Step process, but I once listened to an alkie spill his Step 5 (kind of his life story - but we do it in a structured way) to me and while he was sharing, I was thinking "Yes, I've done that!", "Yes, that happened to me", and "Yes, I felt like that" and I was really overcome with love for this guy; you know the simple wish that he be happy. He'd had a tough time.
As he continued sharing, I realised this guy was 'me', same background, same story, same guilt and the thought struck me, if I can love this guy this way - unconditionally - why do I struggle to love myself this way?
Compassion is powerful stuff.
Like affection?
I usually find that I'm more accepting of other people when I'm more accepting of myself. It's like that old saying "Charity begins at home".
Perhaps it's because you are not trying to change the way he is. If we are totally satisfied with the way we are, why are we working on making changes to our view, speech, acts and so on? If there are things that need work perhaps some of those things aren't so loveable.
When I am chewing myself out over something dumb I have done, I find myself being much harsher than I would with one of my kids or friends for example.
I am set apart from the societal views of compassion.
Often people will donate their lives to helping those in need and are given the metaphorical badge of 'Compassionate Person'. Are all these people really compassionate people? Do they lives of compassion?
I would say not always and not a lot of the time. Many keep their compassion in their back pocket until certain conditions present themselves. I do not deny that these people are sympathetic to good causes but they are not necessarily compassionate people. Consider how they treat their family, neglect, anger, lack of consideration or kindness. A person can donate their life to helping the poor and then go home and beat their son, or simply forget the needs of their son in their tunneled vision for their cause. The hardest questions are, How do they treat their enemies, and opposition, the bully or the murderer?
To me living compassion is not about helping the needy. It is a mindset, or more importantly a mode of being, that affects everyone you meet without condition. The action that comes of compassion is not compassion itself but the result of a need deeply embedded in a compassionate person.
Being able to forgive, let go, and feel empathy towards everyone including oneself is all part of having compassion.
I don't want to derail the thread any more than it needs to but compassion from my perspective is a word that means very little unless you are practicing it. So whilst I have compassion for the people suffering from the Ebola epidemic, the people suffering tragic loss and death in Syria and Iraq, the homeless person on the street mistreated by drunken yobs, it is just a word, unless you feel its true meaning in your heart and it makes a difference to you, that motivates you to do something to make a change no matter how insignificant it may appear to others.
What is the ultimate goal @shoshin you describe? Perhaps a discussion on that topic would become very rewarding if there was an ultimate goal that people could agree on. Otherwise this is just a discussion on thoughts, and thoughts are meaningless except at the time they arise, and perhaps stimulate a change in you that can make a change elsewhere in the world. Or otherwise they are just waves that disappear into the mind stream that may yet arise again, and again.
I was fortunate enough to have a young 16 year old girl who my wife and I had supported to travel and give aid to a small town in Uganda. The charity that took her there was helping a very small community become self-sufficient and educated, but nearby villages were jealous of the aid they were receiving and there were nasty repercussions, and she had to be under 24 hour armed guard. The tears in her eyes as she told us of the toils of her and her other aid workers to build wells, assist building a school and other sustainable efforts brought tears to our eyes, but nothing prepared us for the fact that she spent hours talking through a fence to a child in a neighbouring village whose lives were miserable and barely sustainable.
Compassion is not something you pull out of a hat, it is what you develop as you see the world for what it is.
Develop and nurture it. That is all I can offer, as one day, it will be all that may sustain you.
Anataman, a very good example of what I was saying earlier in this thread. Action that makes a/some difference.
Spot on. The Buddha didn't get Enlightened and then live out the rest of his days in the forest, doing metta from a mat, did he? He chilled for a while, then got off his arse and set about teaching others.
The action that comes of compassion is not compassion itself but the result of a need deeply embedded in a compassionate person.
Yes, that's a good way of putting it. There is compassion and there is compassion in action.
"What is the ultimate goal @shoshin you describe? " @anataman...
For the most part we live, work, play and think along conventional lines... living in Samsara= the mind turned outwardly we tend to get lost in its projection..
The ultimate goal is to turn the mind outward so as to recognise its true nature=Enlightenment...
Are you saying that compassion without action is invalid or worthless?
Forgive me @Shoshin - I must disagree, and I do like to disagree, so don't take this the wrong way, you can't turn your mind in any other direction than the one it is facing, you can't see the back of your head any more than you can see the great barrier reef in Australia by looking from the top of the Shard! Your mind is your mind and it's looking at this screen, and thoughts are jumping out already in a counter-argumnetitive mode - I know ;-) ...\ lol / ...
You are enlightened already, but don't let me pull the wool over your eyes any more than you want me too!
Metta
Yes and no.
If you can do something, and don't, then how you feel all warm and fuzzy about someone's plight is "worthless" (to use your term). In fact, I would suggest that it actually makes one selfish since their warm fuzziness only makes them feel good about themselves.
I will present a couple of caveats. What if you literally cannot help? For example, I feel great empathy toward the people in Syria and Iraq whose lives are being ruined by ISIL. Or what if you would like to help in some situation, but can't figure out how to help.
**But I reject the idea that it's simply either/or. ** To me it's a continuum. If my neighbor, who lives close to the cushion financially (retired, fixed income) donates $25 to a charity, it may be somewhat inconsequential to that charity in the big scheme of things, but represents a hardship for that particular giver. If Warren Buffet donates $1 million to the same charity, it means a lot to that charity, but virtually nothing to Buffet since he is worth $44 billion.
That's my take on it. Yours may be different...and that's fine.
I will present a couple of caveats. What if you literally cannot help? For example, I feel great empathy toward the people in Syria and Iraq whose lives are being ruined by ISIL. Or what if you would like to help in some situation, but can't figure out how to help.
Yes, and I'm saying that in such circumstances we shouldn't feel our compassion is worthless or invalid. In circumstances where we can do something practical but don't, then yes, it would be fair to ask whether it really is compassion that we're feeling.
It is smart compassion for a business owner to ensure his employees are safe and well off by not over extending himself in donations. Providing jobs is a sustainable method of feeding people and donations are not. This owner is exercising compassion and doing it in smart way. I am not saying that many do not seek only power or importance, but that intention is important.
A person can move to africa and take care of the people there but do so to make up for guilt, or to feel like a good person or for self purpose but none of this is compassion.
Compassion is not found in action alone, nor is action an accurate measure of ones compassion.
Ultimate wakefulness is based on generosity with respect to compassion. 'Ultimate' is how we ARE and relative is what we do. We are generous because our true nature is empty or in other words we cannot grasp anything. Our neurosis is caused by trying to grasp things even though that is impossible. For the reason that we have nothing to grasp we can give and give and give. That is why ultimate wakefulness has to do with the paramita (perfection) of generosity.
Relative bodhicitta is based on the discipline paramita. The five precepts could be an example. Relative is how we take our generosity and work with the situations in our life.
Makes sense, but how do you have anything to give if you never had grasped anything in the first place?
True.
We are limited beings. One needs to work within those limits whilst being aware of the graduation into wakefulness that @Jeffrey mentions . . . :thumbsup: .
Everyone is conditioned from birth to grasp. Babies are conditioned by their parents to orient themselves towards bright-colored objects, toward mother and father, toys, etc. It's a process of acculturation to the material world.
Using a touchscreen I hit the lol button on this. Sorry. Dont want anyone to missunderstand
I'm pretty sure if you touch it again, you can remove it. Could be wrong.
I don't know if it's a built-in biological survival mechanism in the brain, but I get a sense of satisfaction every time I help a person in need (a feel good buzz-by-product of ones actions) also there's a feeling of warmth/gratitude I feel when someone helps or offers to help me.">
It would appear there is what has been described as the "moral molecule". More than just thought, but a hormone fosters connection and empathy.
http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_zak_trust_morality_and_oxytocin?language=en
Anamoralacule!
Thats a new word people and it means you can be further deceived into thinking your not what you are...
Compassion for all anamoralacules everywhere!
TED talks - don't you just love them for the distractions, and knowledge dressed up as wisdom!
There is a place where you can go and sit and let these things settle out. The muddied waters, loved by lotus flowers that filter out the impurities, and you can just sit atop it for a while, serenely being who you are - cue cushion... Then go diving back into the pool!
Thanks for the link @AllbuddhaBound, it was interesting, I had read about Oxytocin and its connection to empathy, a few years ago...
I'm also a "hugger", I hug people all the time, so I must be high on oxytocin, to the point of o d'ing on it . :om: .. .
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Nothing to forgive @anataman, but if you insist then "I" forgive "you" ! (As I forgave my "self" many moons ago)
BodhiDharma once said (Well thus I had read)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind-The mind is the root from which all things grow-If you can understand the mind....Everything else is included!"
Definitions in a "nutshell"
Samsara=Mind turned outward lost in its projection
Enlightenment= Mind turned inward recognising its true nature
Who or what does the turning? "Meditation" ?
@Grayman that is a great question. I don't really understand myself. I have read that in 'dana' (giving) in order for it to be dana paramita the giving has to be unified with wisdom of emptiness. Thus I have read that giving is empty of giver, gift, and recipient. Still it's hard to understand.
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Well, this site will let you change your choice, all you need to do is choose another button on same message/post you accidentally LOL'd.
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@robot said:
Your post reminds me of what I read last night out of David Brazier's book "Not Everything is Impermanent" . He makes a case for complete acceptance of ourselves exactly as we are, rather than 'satisfaction with' how we are. If aversion is the reason we submit to self-change, it sort of spoils it from the git-go. What then seeks improvement is self-compassion, is my guess, and theoretically, the results of such change ought to be of higher caliber and strength.
In Brazier's case, his premise is based upon that we are completely accepted and tolerated by some objective, more refined POV. And me, a dedicated (so I thought) nontheist :buck: .
Curiously enough @Hamsaka in Mindfulness in Plain English Bhante Gunaratana says that accepting yourself as you are is a key initial step.
@Hamsaka I think change can also be sort of a 'ripple' in our mind of sensitivity. We can be using our neurosis to 'doctor up' a change. That would be one kind where we should get out of our own way and let the muddy water rest and calm. That would be a 'doctoring' of our experience.
But I would distinguish that from a 'ripple' in our buddhanature. A intuitive change in the citta like a plant grows towards the sunlight?
I can't comment on the case this fellow has made for self acceptance because I haven't read it.
I will say that my own desire for change originally came out of a troubled childhood followed by teenage years filled with failure and drug abuse. There was little to salvage as far as acceptance went at that point. How does one accept behaviour that is destructive to oneself and others?
Most of the more important changes for me have come through some degree of pain, depression or dissatisfaction.
Now, closing in on 60, I have found out about self acceptance. Earlier, I would have said that I either don't understand it or don't believe in it.
The notion of self love is still baffling to me. Not something I spend much time on.