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I would like to float this pass you... "Levitation.... True or False ?"
Wrong thread. Isn't this a light hearted poke at someone's odd beliefs?
Here's my question:
Is your levitating preventing you from doing good work in Liberia?
Buddhas brother or nephew or something attracted the attention of a king via his sidhis (powers). At some point Devadetta decided with the kings son that they would kill the king and kill Buddha and then they would take over the respective 'offices'.
The catch was that when Devadetta had ill will he lost his siddhis. They are blocked by the hindrances.
@robot said:
Wrong thread. Isn't this a light hearted poke at someone's odd beliefs?
Here's my question:
Is your levitating preventing you from doing good work in Liberia?
@Vastmind said:
Controling body functions has been proven for a long time now....
I think we're speaking of levitation. This answer of...you have to try it to achieve it and then you will know, would have to apply to other super human things....
The point is that skeptics will allways find things to be skeptical about and poke fun at.
When controlling body functions were not proven the notion was ridiculed and believed not to be true by skeptics and now it is totally ok. But those of us involved in hard physical exercise (of the right type) were pretty skeptical any time a doctor or nurse would claim that on a check up. .
When Acupuncture was not "proven". People laughed at it. And now that it is proven by science to help alleviate pain it has credence in that aspect but is still skepticized in other aspects.
Meditation suddenly have more credence in the skeptical mind because there are now some scientific studies about it and do not come tell me that skeptics did not poke fun at meditation before that.
"reading minds" was laughed at too but know that we know about mirror neurons its not funny but fascinating.
Faster that light travel was thought impossible and smiled at. Not so much any more...
... etc etc
There are so many cases of the same thing happening again and again and still skeptics do not learn their lesson.
Namely things that worked, worked well before there were any skeptics about at all on the planet. And things that didn't did not. A thing does not have to be proven for it to be true.
And @AldrisTorvalds I hope it is not me you think is making the "Argument of fallacy"?
About the "meditate and you will know" argument again I hope you do not attribute it to me?
But I'll go with the "try and you will find out" argument any time.
It has worked for me.
/Victor
EDIT: I should have said some skeptics. Sorry for any bruised egos.
.
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Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
edited October 2014
@Victorious No you weren't the one making those arguments.
It's true what you say that a thing doesn't have to be proven for it to be true. It doesn't even have to be known for it to be true (or false). My approach (skepticism) is that a thing shouldn't be believed to be true before it's been proven. A position of agnosticism or "I Don't Know" / "Maybe" is the acceptable first step when faced with a new claim, with non-belief an acceptable next step when supporting evidence cannot be found.
I should have a tag-line, "People Believe:", and list a/the vast diversity of current world beliefs to keep reminding people of how many different things people all over the globe believe. Humans are not good at believing only true things; it's painfully obvious. When we recognize this, and if we care about believing as many true things and as few false things as possible, we'll take appropriate steps. We shouldn't make the mistake of holding ourselves above it all... thinking we're too intelligent to have been fooled; we have to put the ego down and re-evaluate everything we think we know.
These short youtube clips demonstrates the power of chi, I find chi quite fascinating, my mind is open and receptive when it comes to chi energy ....
No the clips don't. Body mechanics and training explain many chi abilities.
Non touch martial arts are open to combat investigation. One sceptic with his tongue in his cheek and advanced eye closing v chi 'master' . . . to the end of the line Mr . . .
1
Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
edited October 2014
@lobster That was a wonderful video! It just goes to show you how people self-deceive and help others do the same. If something like this can happen today, and it were never challenged, imagine what would be passed down as history? Maybe this explains more of religion than we know... gullible people deceiving each other.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
There IS something called 'Chi' because the Chinese have been calling it that for millennia.
There IS something called Qi, because the Japanese have been calling it that for Millennia.
When I worked in France as a Qi Gong instructor, the members of my Qi Gong Class definitely felt certain effects within their bodies, they never felt with any other forms of exercise they did, including Yoga.
I think there is a perfectly sane, anatomical, biological explanation for what Chi/Qi is. I'm certain that the type of movements, the positions adopted and the speed of the gestures, plus the breathing and concentration experienced, manifest in specific ways and have definite results within the physical body.
But it's not magic. It's not a phenomenon which one can attribute to supernatural, extra-ordinary 'power'.
I can personally attest to the enormous benefits of practising a passive martial art, both as a physical and mental discipline. I KNOW it has beneficial, healthy, calming, restorative effects. I know my pupils benefited enormously from practising, and I know that it has numerous other benefits I perhaps don't even know about.
In many, many cases where a keep fit/health-and exercise class takes place, normally, the classes start off with a large number of pupils attending, but more often than not, as the time wears on, the number whittles down until perhaps a third of the people remain.
I had to cut my classes in half over 2 evenings because I lost no significant number of participants and in fact, gained some over the course of the term.
I know that it works, and I know Chi exists. But it's explainable, and it's not a supernatural phenomenon.
@Shoshin said:
Now it's quite possible the reason why there's not been any real scientific study done, nor large audiences to witness such an event, could be something to do with the negative energies emitted by us sceptics....
Actually, "you" skeptics give yourself a bit too much credit.
More likely, the lack of research is due to lack of funding for such a study. No one has money to pay for it. The reason there's no money isn't skepticism, either. It's flat-out refuseal to believe that such a study would have any benefit (profit).
@Victorious said:
The point is that skeptics will allways find things to be skeptical about and poke fun at.
I agree. In come cases what is being presented at "skepticism" is really nothing more than recalcitrance.
Many times they are content to simply remain "skeptical" and not take it any further. They seek no answers, no solutions. They offer no alternatives. In fact it's doubtfull their thinking would chance, even if confronted with whatever proof the required in the first place. They simply don't believe.
@Victorious ....The burden of proof falls on the person making the claim.
Do you owe to any of us to prove it to us....no. Just like I don't owe it to you to say I believe you can.
You didn't answer my question(s) about walking on water and parting seas. Have you tried those? Why not? Why are there limitations to levitating? What creates those conditions? Like height and distance for example.
If it is proven...well...DUH...ok, we are all believers then....but notice how the other things you mention get TED talks with scientists backing them and PBS programs and documentation....but people who can levitate are either magicians or so humble that they deem it not right to let us all in on something they can do that the majority of people can't.
I'm confused by the ego hypocrisy. It comes across as "I'm special bec I can do this....but I'm just like you, so I don't want to stand out/make a big deal about it."
If you feel being laughed at/poked fun at is too much....call a press conference. Put an end to all this speculation. You can't have it both ways. "I will keep my ability super secret but you have to believe me."
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Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
edited October 2014
@Vastmind said: "I will keep my ability super secret but you have to believe me."
That hit the funny bone just right! It's kinda like this God character that can't reveal himself for all sorts of reasons (rationalizations), like you then wouldn't need faith.
Doesn't Hinduism also have siddhis, and wouldn't they have applied for JREF's million dollars and tried to prove it by now? They're not bound by secrecy are they? I think it's all still hooey. Maybe in meditation you feel a disconnect with place, as if you're levitating or traveling, but are probably still perfectly still "in the real world". I wouldn't be at all surprised if all non-hopping levitation is some kind of trick... but would be surprised if any weren't. I'm open to having my mind changed, but people believing it doesn't convince me (nor, by far, people claiming to "know").
@federica said:
I know that it works, and I know Chi exists. But it's explainable, and it's not a supernatural phenomenon.
Body conditioning is a part of some martial arts. Technically these attacks would incapacitate most people. Here is a scientific study of body conditioning. Ouch.
As for the warmth and other 'energies' felt in Tai Chi, I have experienced them. They come in time and are indeed associated with increased blood flow, relaxation and other very real healing effects that @federica mentions. I can't levitate or walk on water, in fact I even find ice slippery . . . such a beginner . . .
:-/ .
@Vastmind said:
Victorious ....The burden of proof falls on the person making the claim.
Yepp but there are several claims being made that are implicit. Maybe due to language barriers.
That someone can not prove a claim does not make it automatically false. It just makes it not true.
The claim that something is false is a separate claim for which the burden of proof falls as you say on its proclaimer.
Ya dig? .
You didn't answer my question(s) about walking on water and parting seas. Have you tried those? Why not? Why are there limitations to levitating? What creates those conditions? Like height and distance for example.
Didn't understand that they were aimed at me.
I have never tried those. Because I have not had any desire to do so. I have no Idea if there even are any limitations to levitating.
If it is proven...well...DUH...ok, we are all believers then....but notice how the other things you mention get TED talks with scientists backing them and PBS programs and documentation....but people who can levitate are either magicians or so humble that they deem it not right to let us all in on something they can do that the majority of people can't.
You seriously think any non career suicidal scientist is going to touch that with pliers even?
Look at what happens to those who do. Ridicule ridicule ridicule. No serious discussion whatsoever.
I'm confused by the ego hypocrisy. It comes across as "I'm special bec I can do this....but I'm just like you, so I don't want to stand out/make a big deal about it."
Me too. Why make such a fuss?
If you feel being laughed at/poked fun at is too much....call a press conference. Put an end to all this speculation. You can't have it both ways. "I will keep my ability super secret but you have to believe me."
Sure that explains why people being operated on under acupuncture anesthesia or analgesia screams so much out of pain and have to be held down by 4 strong chinamen and an orangutan.
And why dentist using the same have to strap down their prey...clients...Since they don't make as much as the surgeons and also don't like orangutans.
Non touch martial arts are open to combat investigation. One sceptic with his tongue in his cheek and advanced eye closing v chi 'master' . . . to the end of the line Mr . . .
Need I say it? Ridicule ridicule ridicule. . Have you tried Dim mak or kyoshu @lobster?
Because I have. Not for Dillman but for Evan Pantazi and Jim Horn. I am not so sure about the ko without touching people but I have seen it done on skeptics on those camps. I wonder why there are no videos of that around?
Since I am not sure about those "ki punches" I will not vouch for those but the rest works just perfectly. If ever you swing by I will be happy to demonstrate some very funny acupressure points. There is no magic involved. Just Chi.
Funny for me that is. .
Naaa jsut messin' ...we'll just have some tea. Unless lobsters are afraid of boiling water?
"do 'we - science' know all the laws of physics by now?"
I think the mind can be used as a powerful influence both physiologically and psychologically.
In so far as laughing at the assertion that people fly, I do! People don't fly or levitate, period. I can't fly anymore than my parrot can compose music, It simply is not in mine or his capacity.
There is this claim that people can levitate and this claim would be easily falsifiable in a controlled setting, yet this monk or others like him have not stepped forward.
To quote Christopher Hitchens: "That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" @AldrisTorvalds : you summed it up very nicely: "Absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence, but it is evidence of absence of evidence."
I love miracles and as others have pointed out, rather than paltry parlor tricks (miracles) why not use one's abilities to help others in a more meaningful way.
In fact I would also add that this type of non-sense does nothing but detract from the teachings of Buddha, whose teachings don't require this kind of chicanery.
"Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason and the mind becomes a wreck"- Thomas Jefferson.
Pain to weak points in the body, just like trapped nerves can cause incapacitating effects. You can invoke chi but there is nothing unknown or supernatural in body strikes to vulnerable parts of the body. No one has been able to consistently demonstrate take down without touching. You can not do this, nor can I and nor has anyone else as yet. Take down through directed strikes is skilled and many train to do this successfully. No chi required.
@lobster said:
Pain to weak points in the body, just like trapped nerves can cause incapacitating effects. You can invoke chi but there is nothing unknown or supernatural in body strikes to vulnerable parts of the body.
Of course I for one do not think there is anything supernatural or unknown about chi. Not the parts I know about. But the world is bigger than me.
No one has been able to consistently demonstrate take down without touching.
Really? Interesting. Then how was the study/studies conducted? On how many participants? What where the results? Do you have a link or reference? I would love to read about it? No really I would.
You can not do this, nor can I and nor has anyone else as yet.
I admit I have never tried. So I really do not know. What would be interesting to know is how you know what I can or cannot do when I do not know myself? Not an impossibility I admit. But I am skeptical...
Take down through directed strikes is skilled and many train to do this successfully. No chi required.
Chi is required for everything. Try moving without exerting energy?
Maybe just different views on chi?
Lobster: No one has been able to consistently demonstrate take down without touching.
Victor: Really? Interesting. Then how was the study/studies conducted? On how many participants? What where the results? Do you have a link or reference? I would love to read about it? No really I would.
Lobster: Me too. You would like me to provide links or references for something there is no evidence for? No can do. No evidence. Nothing to study. .
. . . and now back to the study of hopping into the lotus position . . .
@lobster said:
Lobster: Me too. You would like me to provide links or references for something there is no evidence for? No can do. No evidence. Nothing to study.
Aha I was hoping that you had found some obscure dusty paper or evaluation of it somewhere... Got hung up on the word consistently.
...and now back to the awakened state of not knowing again...
I'm not convinced that it is not possible - perhaps we just haven't yet discovered how.
If my grandfather could see what I can do today with wi-fi and Bluetooth...
The way that birds navigate their migration and how the next generation comes back to the same place, sometime the same tree, where their ancestors lived - without the need for any external hardware - is fascinating. They are "in tune" with something we have yet to find.
@charirama said:
The way that birds navigate their migration and how the next generation comes back to the same place, sometime the same tree, where their ancestors lived - without the need for any external hardware - is fascinating. They are "in tune" with something we have yet to find.
Yes, animals have some amazing abilities.
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
The way that birds navigate their migration and how the next generation comes back to the same place, sometime the same tree, where their ancestors lived - without the need for any external hardware - is fascinating. They are "in tune" with something we have yet to find.
Scientists have been studying bird navigation and migration phenomena for a while, and from what little I've captured in various documentaries (the papers are above my head), the more they understand, the more 'in awe' they are of some grand mystery.
In the meantime, my domestic geese use the front pasture as a biannual 'runway' and run flapping and honking up and down it in tune with the Canada geese and mallards migrations to and from our area. They cannot fly thanks to human breeding, but they have not lost the dream of it.
The way that birds navigate their migration and how the next generation comes back to the same place, sometime the same tree, where their ancestors lived - without the need for any external hardware - is fascinating. They are "in tune" with something we have yet to find.
This reminds me of this....
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Apparently, studies of this phenomenon have shown the remarkable cognitive ability of such swarms of birds in flight. They never collide and that is because every single bird is aware and alert to the moves of just 6 other flying companions: the 2 to its left, (orologically speaking, at 10 and 7) the two to its right (at 2 and 5) and the two in front (11 and 1). As every bird is observing it's neighbours in this way, collision is virtually unheard of. Stunning, breathtaking and utterly awe-inspiring. I have seen this IRL, and it's just mesmerising. And the birds are not silent in flight, so it can be deafening as well....
To add to what @federica says, fish shoals use a similar strategy, that hard wires and by passes the normal conscious processing, decision making brain activity. This allows for very fast response times that give the appearance of being in telepathic communication.
There is no evidence for a levitating animal, insect or human. It would have evolutionary benefit and would for example save the giraffe having to grow a long neck.
The TM flying program is evidence of hopping in full lotus, nothing more.
@federica said:
Apparently, studies of this phenomenon have shown the remarkable cognitive ability of such swarms of birds in flight. They never collide and that is because every single bird is aware and alert to the moves of just 6 other flying companions:
I've seen starlings swarm near to where I live and it's mesmerising to watch the intricate shifting 3-D patterns they create. One time some sea-gulls got caught up in the display, I'm not sure whether it was by accident or if they were deliberately trying to mess with the starlings. .
I am more than happy to believe that if people are prepared to devote their entire lives achieving certain things like hopping in full lotus position, or other feats akin to levitation or other magical feats.
But who or what is it being done for, and what does it really achieve? Perhaps some students gain faith, or can believe that if they can be trained to do such things, they will become great masters too, and achieve a following which is perhaps there inner secret desire.
As for Chi/Qi, there is no doubt that monks fastidiously learned to understand the nervous system/channels in such a way, that in certain circumstances, a specific manipulation can send standing waves through the nervous system and like the above videos show, appear as involuntary reflex movements, and make for a beautiful dance, which they all seemed to enjoy! It's nice to dance...
Not as well done as the first one but also convincing. Not having anything at stake, I think I'll keep an open mind either way.
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
Baggies glycerol and manganese/potassium up his sleeve? Magicians have done better than that. The expose' begged some credulity too, especially the one about him always having a shirt on during his 'qi' work, concealing some sort of gizmo. If he did have something like that, it would have registered on the voltage detector, don't you think?
One thing I noticed though was when he was asked 'how', he claimed daily 'meditation' and then in a classic nonverbal 'lie' sign, he reached up and scratched the left side of his nose. This could mean so many things, from him being forbidden to tell the truth (using meditation as a white lie sort of answer) to "I'm wearing a shocker thingie under my constantly worn shirt".
It's easy to see what you are looking for, and harder to see what you aren't, or give it much credence even when you do.
Sure I thought it was better. Didn't you? However, when the director or whatever, showed up with an eye patch after getting healed I felt some skeptisizm creeping in.
@robot said:
Sure I thought it was better. Didn't you? However, when the director or whatever, showed up with an eye patch after getting healed I felt some skeptisizm creeping in.
Comments
Wrong thread. Isn't this a light hearted poke at someone's odd beliefs?
Here's my question:
Is your levitating preventing you from doing good work in Liberia?
These short youtube clips demonstrates the power of chi, I find chi quite fascinating, my mind is open and receptive when it comes to chi energy ....
Please don't try this at home . :banghead: .. Warning if you're squeamish don't watch...
Buddhas brother or nephew or something attracted the attention of a king via his sidhis (powers). At some point Devadetta decided with the kings son that they would kill the king and kill Buddha and then they would take over the respective 'offices'.
The catch was that when Devadetta had ill will he lost his siddhis. They are blocked by the hindrances.
@robot, (worker in Slovak languages)
Sorry...Not quite sure who your question is directed at ? Is it at the posters or a specific poster ?
The point is that skeptics will allways find things to be skeptical about and poke fun at.
When controlling body functions were not proven the notion was ridiculed and believed not to be true by skeptics and now it is totally ok. But those of us involved in hard physical exercise (of the right type) were pretty skeptical any time a doctor or nurse would claim that on a check up.
.
When Acupuncture was not "proven". People laughed at it. And now that it is proven by science to help alleviate pain it has credence in that aspect but is still skepticized in other aspects.
Meditation suddenly have more credence in the skeptical mind because there are now some scientific studies about it and do not come tell me that skeptics did not poke fun at meditation before that.
"reading minds" was laughed at too but know that we know about mirror neurons its not funny but fascinating.
Faster that light travel was thought impossible and smiled at. Not so much any more...
... etc etc
There are so many cases of the same thing happening again and again and still skeptics do not learn their lesson.
Namely things that worked, worked well before there were any skeptics about at all on the planet. And things that didn't did not. A thing does not have to be proven for it to be true.
And @AldrisTorvalds I hope it is not me you think is making the "Argument of fallacy"?
About the "meditate and you will know" argument again I hope you do not attribute it to me?
But I'll go with the "try and you will find out" argument any time.
It has worked for me.
/Victor
EDIT: I should have said some skeptics. Sorry for any bruised egos.
@Victorious No you weren't the one making those arguments.
It's true what you say that a thing doesn't have to be proven for it to be true. It doesn't even have to be known for it to be true (or false). My approach (skepticism) is that a thing shouldn't be believed to be true before it's been proven. A position of agnosticism or "I Don't Know" / "Maybe" is the acceptable first step when faced with a new claim, with non-belief an acceptable next step when supporting evidence cannot be found.
I should have a tag-line, "People Believe:", and list a/the vast diversity of current world beliefs to keep reminding people of how many different things people all over the globe believe. Humans are not good at believing only true things; it's painfully obvious. When we recognize this, and if we care about believing as many true things and as few false things as possible, we'll take appropriate steps. We shouldn't make the mistake of holding ourselves above it all... thinking we're too intelligent to have been fooled; we have to put the ego down and re-evaluate everything we think we know.
Yepp! All too true.
Acupuncture deserves the laughter
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/
No the clips don't. Body mechanics and training explain many chi abilities.
Non touch martial arts are open to combat investigation. One sceptic with his tongue in his cheek and advanced eye closing v chi 'master' . . . to the end of the line Mr . . .
@lobster That was a wonderful video! It just goes to show you how people self-deceive and help others do the same. If something like this can happen today, and it were never challenged, imagine what would be passed down as history? Maybe this explains more of religion than we know... gullible people deceiving each other.
There IS something called 'Chi' because the Chinese have been calling it that for millennia.
There IS something called Qi, because the Japanese have been calling it that for Millennia.
When I worked in France as a Qi Gong instructor, the members of my Qi Gong Class definitely felt certain effects within their bodies, they never felt with any other forms of exercise they did, including Yoga.
I think there is a perfectly sane, anatomical, biological explanation for what Chi/Qi is. I'm certain that the type of movements, the positions adopted and the speed of the gestures, plus the breathing and concentration experienced, manifest in specific ways and have definite results within the physical body.
But it's not magic. It's not a phenomenon which one can attribute to supernatural, extra-ordinary 'power'.
I can personally attest to the enormous benefits of practising a passive martial art, both as a physical and mental discipline. I KNOW it has beneficial, healthy, calming, restorative effects. I know my pupils benefited enormously from practising, and I know that it has numerous other benefits I perhaps don't even know about.
In many, many cases where a keep fit/health-and exercise class takes place, normally, the classes start off with a large number of pupils attending, but more often than not, as the time wears on, the number whittles down until perhaps a third of the people remain.
I had to cut my classes in half over 2 evenings because I lost no significant number of participants and in fact, gained some over the course of the term.
I know that it works, and I know Chi exists. But it's explainable, and it's not a supernatural phenomenon.
Maybe this explains more of religion than we know... gullible people deceiving each other.
It might just be people believing what they want to believe. Seeking comfort rather than truth.
Actually, "you" skeptics give yourself a bit too much credit.
More likely, the lack of research is due to lack of funding for such a study. No one has money to pay for it. The reason there's no money isn't skepticism, either. It's flat-out refuseal to believe that such a study would have any benefit (profit).
I agree. In come cases what is being presented at "skepticism" is really nothing more than recalcitrance.
Many times they are content to simply remain "skeptical" and not take it any further. They seek no answers, no solutions. They offer no alternatives. In fact it's doubtfull their thinking would chance, even if confronted with whatever proof the required in the first place. They simply don't believe.
@Victorious ....The burden of proof falls on the person making the claim.
Do you owe to any of us to prove it to us....no. Just like I don't owe it to you to say I believe you can.
You didn't answer my question(s) about walking on water and parting seas. Have you tried those? Why not? Why are there limitations to levitating? What creates those conditions? Like height and distance for example.
If it is proven...well...DUH...ok, we are all believers then....but notice how the other things you mention get TED talks with scientists backing them and PBS programs and documentation....but people who can levitate are either magicians or so humble that they deem it not right to let us all in on something they can do that the majority of people can't.
I'm confused by the ego hypocrisy. It comes across as "I'm special bec I can do this....but I'm just like you, so I don't want to stand out/make a big deal about it."
If you feel being laughed at/poked fun at is too much....call a press conference. Put an end to all this speculation. You can't have it both ways. "I will keep my ability super secret but you have to believe me."
That hit the funny bone just right! It's kinda like this God character that can't reveal himself for all sorts of reasons (rationalizations), like you then wouldn't need faith.
Doesn't Hinduism also have siddhis, and wouldn't they have applied for JREF's million dollars and tried to prove it by now? They're not bound by secrecy are they? I think it's all still hooey. Maybe in meditation you feel a disconnect with place, as if you're levitating or traveling, but are probably still perfectly still "in the real world". I wouldn't be at all surprised if all non-hopping levitation is some kind of trick... but would be surprised if any weren't. I'm open to having my mind changed, but people believing it doesn't convince me (nor, by far, people claiming to "know").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhi
As the saying goes " Don't believe everything you think"
Just bec you think you left the ground, doesn't mean you did.
Just bec your eyes tell your brain you saw someone leave the ground, doesn't mean they did.
Too many variables. Besides like mentioned.....whats the benefits to yourself and others? Did it lesson your suffering or the suffering of others?
Body conditioning is a part of some martial arts. Technically these attacks would incapacitate most people. Here is a scientific study of body conditioning. Ouch.
As for the warmth and other 'energies' felt in Tai Chi, I have experienced them. They come in time and are indeed associated with increased blood flow, relaxation and other very real healing effects that @federica mentions. I can't levitate or walk on water, in fact I even find ice slippery . . . such a beginner . . .
:-/ .
Yepp but there are several claims being made that are implicit. Maybe due to language barriers.
That someone can not prove a claim does not make it automatically false. It just makes it not true.
The claim that something is false is a separate claim for which the burden of proof falls as you say on its proclaimer.
Ya dig?
.
Didn't understand that they were aimed at me.
I have never tried those. Because I have not had any desire to do so. I have no Idea if there even are any limitations to levitating.
You seriously think any non career suicidal scientist is going to touch that with pliers even?
Look at what happens to those who do. Ridicule ridicule ridicule. No serious discussion whatsoever.
Me too. Why make such a fuss?
You mean me personally or people in general?
/Victor
I'm not sure you addressed my questions. .. :scratch: ...
Anyway...I'm starting to sound redundant....so I'm out of the ring.
Have a good day ..
..
Sure that explains why people being operated on under acupuncture anesthesia or analgesia screams so much out of pain and have to be held down by 4 strong chinamen and an orangutan.
And why dentist using the same have to strap down their prey...clients...Since they don't make as much as the surgeons and also don't like orangutans.
Need I say it? Ridicule ridicule ridicule.
. Have you tried Dim mak or kyoshu @lobster?
Because I have. Not for Dillman but for Evan Pantazi and Jim Horn. I am not so sure about the ko without touching people but I have seen it done on skeptics on those camps. I wonder why there are no videos of that around?
Since I am not sure about those "ki punches" I will not vouch for those but the rest works just perfectly. If ever you swing by I will be happy to demonstrate some very funny acupressure points. There is no magic involved. Just Chi.
Funny for me that is.
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Naaa jsut messin' ...we'll just have some tea. Unless lobsters are afraid of boiling water?
I make beer too.
Welcome. :clap: .
/Victor
"do 'we - science' know all the laws of physics by now?"
I think the mind can be used as a powerful influence both physiologically and psychologically.
In so far as laughing at the assertion that people fly, I do! People don't fly or levitate, period. I can't fly anymore than my parrot can compose music, It simply is not in mine or his capacity.
There is this claim that people can levitate and this claim would be easily falsifiable in a controlled setting, yet this monk or others like him have not stepped forward.
To quote Christopher Hitchens: "That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"
@AldrisTorvalds : you summed it up very nicely: "Absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence, but it is evidence of absence of evidence."
I love miracles and as others have pointed out, rather than paltry parlor tricks (miracles) why not use one's abilities to help others in a more meaningful way.
In fact I would also add that this type of non-sense does nothing but detract from the teachings of Buddha, whose teachings don't require this kind of chicanery.
"Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason and the mind becomes a wreck"- Thomas Jefferson.
....held down by 4 strong chinamen and an orangutan.
I actually imagined that, and it cracked me up.
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Water into wine anyone?
I guess it's all part and parcel of Dharma practice...understanding how our mind works when faced with things out of the ordinary...
Thank you all for your contributions...
"It's a bird ... It's a plane ...No it's Super Levitating Monk !"
I would like to leave you all will this...
The motto found on the Sceptic's coat of arms "Yeah Right.... and pigs will fly!" .
; ..
A bit of research will find explanations (this was the first that came up in Google)
http://skepticalteacher.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/discovery-channels-the-supernaturalist-is-super-stupid/
Levitation has not been demonstrated. Nothing to disprove. No evidence, nothing to prove one way or another.
Yes.
Pain to weak points in the body, just like trapped nerves can cause incapacitating effects. You can invoke chi but there is nothing unknown or supernatural in body strikes to vulnerable parts of the body. No one has been able to consistently demonstrate take down without touching. You can not do this, nor can I and nor has anyone else as yet. Take down through directed strikes is skilled and many train to do this successfully. No chi required.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_of_Death
Whichever way one wants to look at it, it's all still a case of "Mind over Matter!" . : :thumbsup: >
Of course I for one do not think there is anything supernatural or unknown about chi. Not the parts I know about. But the world is bigger than me.
Really? Interesting. Then how was the study/studies conducted? On how many participants? What where the results? Do you have a link or reference? I would love to read about it? No really I would.
I admit I have never tried. So I really do not know. What would be interesting to know is how you know what I can or cannot do when I do not know myself? Not an impossibility I admit. But I am skeptical...
Chi is required for everything. Try moving without exerting energy?
Maybe just different views on chi?
Who did you train for btw?
Not really a wine man but I do make beer out of water...
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Or rather terrify and threaten each other. That's a powerful mechanism of 'belief'. You'd better believe, or else.
Lobster: No one has been able to consistently demonstrate take down without touching.
Lobster: Me too. You would like me to provide links or references for something there is no evidence for? No can do. No evidence. Nothing to study.
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. . . and now back to the study of hopping into the lotus position . . .
Aha I was hoping that you had found some obscure dusty paper or evaluation of it somewhere... Got hung up on the word consistently.
...and now back to the awakened state of not knowing again...
/Cheers
Victor
I'm not convinced that it is not possible - perhaps we just haven't yet discovered how.
If my grandfather could see what I can do today with wi-fi and Bluetooth...
The way that birds navigate their migration and how the next generation comes back to the same place, sometime the same tree, where their ancestors lived - without the need for any external hardware - is fascinating. They are "in tune" with something we have yet to find.
Yes, animals have some amazing abilities.
Scientists have been studying bird navigation and migration phenomena for a while, and from what little I've captured in various documentaries (the papers are above my head), the more they understand, the more 'in awe' they are of some grand mystery.
In the meantime, my domestic geese use the front pasture as a biannual 'runway' and run flapping and honking up and down it in tune with the Canada geese and mallards migrations to and from our area. They cannot fly thanks to human breeding, but they have not lost the dream of it.
@charirama said:
This reminds me of this....
Apparently, studies of this phenomenon have shown the remarkable cognitive ability of such swarms of birds in flight. They never collide and that is because every single bird is aware and alert to the moves of just 6 other flying companions: the 2 to its left, (orologically speaking, at 10 and 7) the two to its right (at 2 and 5) and the two in front (11 and 1). As every bird is observing it's neighbours in this way, collision is virtually unheard of. Stunning, breathtaking and utterly awe-inspiring. I have seen this IRL, and it's just mesmerising. And the birds are not silent in flight, so it can be deafening as well....
To add to what @federica says, fish shoals use a similar strategy, that hard wires and by passes the normal conscious processing, decision making brain activity. This allows for very fast response times that give the appearance of being in telepathic communication.
There is no evidence for a levitating animal, insect or human. It would have evolutionary benefit and would for example save the giraffe having to grow a long neck.
The TM flying program is evidence of hopping in full lotus, nothing more.
Here is some comment on the Chi Lama
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?63495-Lama-Dondrup-Dorje
He has skill as a martial artist but that is no excuse for deluding himself and others . . .
I've seen starlings swarm near to where I live and it's mesmerising to watch the intricate shifting 3-D patterns they create. One time some sea-gulls got caught up in the display, I'm not sure whether it was by accident or if they were deliberately trying to mess with the starlings.
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lol.
I am more than happy to believe that if people are prepared to devote their entire lives achieving certain things like hopping in full lotus position, or other feats akin to levitation or other magical feats.
But who or what is it being done for, and what does it really achieve? Perhaps some students gain faith, or can believe that if they can be trained to do such things, they will become great masters too, and achieve a following which is perhaps there inner secret desire.
As for Chi/Qi, there is no doubt that monks fastidiously learned to understand the nervous system/channels in such a way, that in certain circumstances, a specific manipulation can send standing waves through the nervous system and like the above videos show, appear as involuntary reflex movements, and make for a beautiful dance, which they all seemed to enjoy! It's nice to dance...
Hmm. Yepp easy to find charlatans.
Here is the real deal.
It's pretty convincing.
Perhaps. Perhaps not . . .
Not as well done as the first one but also convincing. Not having anything at stake, I think I'll keep an open mind either way.
Baggies glycerol and manganese/potassium up his sleeve? Magicians have done better than that. The expose' begged some credulity too, especially the one about him always having a shirt on during his 'qi' work, concealing some sort of gizmo. If he did have something like that, it would have registered on the voltage detector, don't you think?
One thing I noticed though was when he was asked 'how', he claimed daily 'meditation' and then in a classic nonverbal 'lie' sign, he reached up and scratched the left side of his nose. This could mean so many things, from him being forbidden to tell the truth (using meditation as a white lie sort of answer) to "I'm wearing a shocker thingie under my constantly worn shirt".
It's easy to see what you are looking for, and harder to see what you aren't, or give it much credence even when you do.
You think the first one was better? You got to be kiddin me...?
Agreed.
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Sure I thought it was better. Didn't you? However, when the director or whatever, showed up with an eye patch after getting healed I felt some skeptisizm creeping in.
No I felt the other way around.