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Holier than Thou
Vastmind
Memphis, TN Veteran
This an off conversation about an episode of Penn and Teller....here it is to watch....
Warning: The "F" word is used alot.
My take:
I don't have enough knowledge of the facts to argue their facts....but I did get their point. Putting anyone on a pedestal can be a dangerous thing. Any religious figure has a PR machine behind them. To think otherwise would be naive. And all of the figures they mentioned are on record as saying things that have certainly made my brow rise.
That in no way lessons what impact they had/have on changing peoples lives for the better.....but recognizing BS or imperfection has it's place as well....for many reasons.
The episode is " Bullshit: Holier than Thou"
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Comments
Well . . . I haven't heard that much cursing or the use of the 'n' word for a while, I must lead a sheltered life . . . one of Penn's favorite soundbytes is "does the means justify the ends?" and in this case, it might.
The 'n' word comes straight out of Gandhi's mouth, quoted from his days as a high class lawyer in Africa, where he makes it plain he thinks the native Africans are dirty animals, but this was in a day and age where pretty much everybody did; it was the age of segregation here in the states. As for the British, nuff said about their role.
The points he makes about the Dalai Llama were difficult to hear and go against HHDL's own words on the several documentaries on him. That he wants Tibet back so the priestly class can live in luxury over the squalor of the Tibetan citizenry does not stand up against HHDL's behavior, words or actions. Then again, neither I nor anyone else on this forum has been behind the scenes. But this isn't even the important point, which is made at the end, by Penn, that these saints and saviors of humanity are simply men and women capable of typical human crimes against itself, hidden behind smoke and mirrors.
Sam Harris goes into this extensively in his book "Waking Up". He talks of a very revered Mahayana teacher who, in his retreat forbade the eating of all meat during his retreat. Harris approached the teacher in his room at night for a question, and caught him in bed with his wife gnoshing on a nice steak. The teacher attempted to hide the meat by throwing it, foil and all, into the closet where it struck the back wall with a loud, fleshy thump. Then his teacher began to laugh, and apparently, so did Harris. According to Harris, the attitude of the teacher being caught out impressed him as the teacher had no problem at all being seen as a liar. I get that.
ETA: and following that, OUR responsibility as 'followers' or students must involve us taking responsibility at a level we typically do not take. We demand our leaders shine with a pathological light and refuse to accept any dimness or spots dirtying their lily white mantles. It is our responsibility to get the hell over that namby pamby childishness in our own selves.
As a race we desperately need to persist in questioning anyone who claims (or is claimed to be) beyond human imperfection. Otherwise, we aren't teaching or learning truth as it needs to be understood. I agree with Harris and the 'new atheists' that the fundamentalist 'use' of doctrine and dogma end up creating perversions masquerading as morality or 'goodness'. By fundamentalist use, I mean how it is forbidden to question the holy ones, up to and including the human nutjobs who can't be questioned either. Good video otherwise, loved the lightning rod hard hats
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I must admit I thought it funnier this time round although when I saw it a few years ago I was a bit offended for some silly reason.
I mean come on though... The Dalai Lamas are hardly known for plucking people's eyes out as torture.
Since they go that far with the Dalai Lama it's likely so with Mother Theresa and Gandhi. Their point is well made, though, and it is not the sole responsibility of the 'saint' to be regarded as such.
Well, the word saint isn't all its cracked up to be either.
Many saints got their title by the sword.
Read up on the 5th DL and his treatment of the Kagyu.
No way!
Don't wanna...
And you can't make me.
Dang... Now I have to.
The 13th DL punished a border guard who allowed into Tibet a person later discovered to be a British spy by gouging his eyes out and throwing him off a cliff. (Later in his career, he's said to have renounced torture.) DL's aren't known for these sorts of things because it's not publicized. But absolute power can corrupt absolutely. Besides, Tibet was a medieval society in many ways. In medieval times. gouging out eyes was kind of a thing. Ivan the Terrible gouged out the eyes of the architects who built the exquisite cathedral on Red Square, so that it could never be copied.
Pre-modern life could be very harsh. Hopefully we're making progress, but sometimes it's hard to tell.
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http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/pokrovsky-church-red-square-moscow-6574440.jpg
Those lucky Dalais,
with their karma
they can join our 'picnics in hell and samsara for fun and prophet' campaign?
Not funny? Seriously?
I have seen the vid and there are similar exposes of Popes, prophets, terrorists, dictators, British and American citiZens, Christians, politicians and [insert finger pointing of choice] . . .
. . . and now back to the 4 Ignoble Truths . . .
We doubt sometimes and then we can create our own momentum to right the ship with the blessing of the lineage. The world can seem like crap at times. But we have our heartwish manifest in our mindstream. We want to be happy and live wholesome lives. Brick by brick...
But yeah the dark side of holiness is over confidence. Doubt can be in some moments as the dark side. Patience.
I don't know. My local zen teacher does not have a PR machine behind them! People who actually are Holier than Thou, have no need to go around telling people about it.
^^^ Some of that statement can be debated...in fact, thats the purpose of this here thread ..
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PR machines come in different sizes. Is he local or internationally known? Who is he? Who is his inner circle?
My Zen teacher sure has a machine. If you go to retreats....they sell t shirts, books, paintings...and it's a production. I still think he's great and he teaches me.....Is he holier than me? Well.....we both have Buddha Nature so.??????...I'm also sure I'm good at things that he isn't and could teach him some things....does that make me holier/more talented/gifted than him? No.
As my Nana used to say...."He puts his underwear on one leg at a time like me."
I've read that again....and I may see your point.....My neighbor doesn't go around telling people shes holy....but she seems like a saint to me at times.
But...I've also seen her throw dog poop back at the others neighbors and throw her trash in other people's cans. When no one was looking. ( I saw it through the window)...I guess that makes her her own PR machine....hahaha
I loved Pen and Teller's program, and they pointed out a lot of BS going on, but I didn't agree with every point they made. I remember this episode. While I agree with their overall point about how the truth gets distorted when you worship people, some of their examples go too far in the other direction and find fault simply because you want to knock someone off the pedestal. People change, and some of the great figures in history had to grow into the role. For instance, Gandhi as a young man was casually racist, yes. That wasn't the same man who dedicated his life to resisting colonial rule later on. He changed.
The Dalai Llama we see today is not the same young boy-king who was groomed as a figurehead and even if Tibet achieved a measure of independence, the Monks would not be allowed to recreate their medieval pseudo-monarchy. However, people do even now whitewash the history of Tibetan Buddhist theocracy and don't give much thought to what life would be like for the average Tibetan now if the temples were still in complete control.
So it's more complicated than the program makes it out to be.
It's P&T, and probably mostly P at that! They seem a little less thorough than the MythBusters, and I wouldn't take everything they say as-read, though it sure provokes thought and possible further research and verification.
I've always taken the view that people are judged holy or unholy...wholly by their own behavior.
Of course it's not always possible to know if they really have discarded all evil. But if they speak wise and you never see any evidence of any evildoing, I usually go by the edict of "innocent until proven guilty"
But, there are people out there who actually have discarded all evil. Know exactly who they are and aren't is sometimes difficult, but they're out there.
Yes he did, this is important, but in what way? Does it absolve him? Does his change wipe out his historical actions that surely made life for native Africans affected by him worse than ever? In Buddhism, his change wipes it away, makes it irrelevant AND he is still responsible for the harm he perpetrated. Ask me again why I 'chose' Buddhism as my vehicle for awakening? I've been a complete jackass and have changed. My jackassedness 'lives on' in karma, which the Buddha has taught me how to improve. The Buddha himself was a prince, entitled to gluttony, sexual excess, and putting himself above the common rabble. This was his conditioning, and if he didn't cause some servant or dancing girls some pain and suffering, I'll eat my hat. Let's not start on abandoning his wife and newborn son.
I think holding all this in one's head at the same time is just too much work for most people, who just want absolute answers (that include much ego stroking). It is a kind of intellectual laziness, at least for adults who are capable of abstraction.
P&T are performers, entertainers by history, so their historical mistakes are 'understandable' in light of the importance of their overall message in this vid.
I thought the part about Gandhi in South Africa was eye-opening. I think it's good to have a clear view of people. People are complex. Adulation tends to simplify them. I'd rather have a realistic view, even if it means struggling to balance the good with the bad, and to figure out what to make of it all. Martin Luther King Jr. was a womanizer. Feminist African American women struggle with that, as do social justice activist women of any ethnicity. How to reconcile that with all the good he did? I don't know. But I'd rather know the truth, for truth's sake, than believe in something more like a fairy tale.
The other thing to bear in mind, about Gandhi, is that no matter how much of a National fiigurehead he was, and how esteemed he still is, his son hated him.
And he was the only man to ever have father issues.
...Which are quite unlike a woman's 'daddy' issues.... :eek: .
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