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Regression, progression, consolidation.
lobster
Crusty Veteran
in Philosophy
Many of us are pseudo Buddhists, enlightenment for future life, life avoiders, refuge GI's or similar. LOL. Too harsh? Part of consolidation of what we are?
Part of progression is accepting that progression is not always continuous. Who has changed permanently? I know I have. How? Internally of course, manifesting externally. In other words, when empty, we have a form . . .
1
Comments
Progress is something to rejoice about, whether sudden or gradual
I don't think I bother keeping track.
^^^Neither do I.
If I stop for a nanosecond to even consider whether I am progressing, regressing or consolidating (what's all that by the way?), life passes me by.
Or knocks me down.
Or both.
But one thing I can tell you, @lobster: we're anything but life-avoiders.
Progress, regress, stagnation... It's all just perspective. in reality, we only go forwards as far as I can tell.
In part I measure progress by my actions and reactions. For example I ended up in an argument with Mrs Tosh on Saturday and my internal reaction wasn't anything to be proud of. Inside I was angry, it really did feel like it was all her fault, and I believed (still do) that she was being irrational, bullying, and aggressive. She suffers with depression and she's having a bit of a tough time with it. And before any of you lot start, she suffered with depression a long time before she met me!!! I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and I can't cure it.
Anyway, we were arguing and I found myself arguing 'calmly - with restraint'. Old Tosh would've been right back in her face, but this newer Tosh was listening to her ranting, requesting her to calm down and not be so aggressive (she had a finger in my face), all of which served to incite her more towards anger.
Eventually, I just walked away so that we both could calm down. We're back to being friends now (we're like kids eh?), but progress for me is that my actions were okay compared with how they'd used to be, faced with such a situation.
I'm hoping that in the future - with more spiritual growth - my internal reactions won't be so wild, but I'm happy enough that my actions have improved.
That seems a good indication. Ideally we are independent of conflictive emotions, however ideals are for the Dharmakaya . . .
Part of the reason for looking after the body, emotional well being, diet etc is to remove the potential suffering flash points. We have to know ourself and be aware we have different tolerances.
From personal experience with being possessed by irrationality, depression, paranoia and absolute indignation, it appears EVIDENT (and yer stoopid fer not seeing it fer yerself). It is like being possessed, maybe it is exactly that. When that trigger is pulled, bullets are going to fly. It's just plain old SUFFERING in a particularly ugly hat.
It can be hard to give a person possessed the room and permission to be exactly as they are, especially with a finger shaking in your face. Talk about a USEFUL kind of progress, @Tosh, benefiting not just you but your wife, who doesn't then need to reinforce her possession. No fuel is added to her fire, and it burn itself out. Her suffering is lessened and so is yours
.
:snaps fingers:
Is that progress?
What do we need to get? What do we need? How can we be buds with our lovers?
"snap". "let it go". "snap". "let it go"
I love you lobster
(not kidding I really do!)
Thanks @Jeffrey
. LOVE is always good.
Perhaps.
However I have come across people 'on the path', some with decades of practice, some in the sangha, some teachers who are living a dream and bringing others along for the delusion.
Ignorance is something we must discern from wisdom as quickly as possible.
Spiritually starved and immature Westerners have a tendency to ditch their traditions, having seen through the hypocrisy and find something different.
One of the reasons the Sangha is one of the three jewels is because it is transmission through behaviour or example. It is up to individual monks whether they gain from the opportunity, not all do.
In a similar way the Buddhas teaching on emptiness is often mistaken for Nihilism, when we cease to be (void), we have ended our karma. Again this does not refer to a vacuum.
So it is important to recognise that teachers, monks and our understanding may have limitations, layers and potential pitfalls or dead ends.
If we are on the path, behaviour does change, wisdom does deepen, metta does increase. Capacities of discernment, kindness, the will to good, the leaving of immature and childish monkey minded attractions and conflictive emotions does happen.
We do not all of a sudden become perfect, or realise the perfect nature of even the flaws (best excuse ever to remain an asshole) but find the dharma is an ever expanding potential we have just scratched the surface of . . .
We are in this sense always beginners, always new, always learning greater skilfulness, always supporting our sangha, virtual or mundane.
Mr Cushion says hi
It's just a play on words @lobster
Even to regress we must progress into regression. It doesn't work the other way around.
Can you unlearn something you know to be true? As much as anybody, I am three steps forward, two steps back. But once I witnessed the wisdom of accepting reality, I know I became much more resilient, kind and patient. I slide back on occasion but at least I have learned not to defend it when I do. I recognize it for the ignorance it is. In a way, that represents progress. I view it as a laying of a foundation where it will become easier and easier not to slip back into the abyss that was me.
I must always verify and give meaning. It is not enough to see the truth I must embrace it make it mine. It really doesn't matter if I don't have the full truth. By always verifying I will get another chance to get the correct meaning. (or correct view)
The Buddha has done the hard work and he has shone us the fruit of his view. He has tried many ways. As many ways as leafs it the forest. But only a hand full that bare fruit. I don't have to do more than verify his hand full.
Sometimes indulgence or involvement with experience devoid of mindfulness is something we step away from in retreat.
So in this sense a Buddhist retreat is progress. However not all experience is skilful. Most of Farcebook is mindless . . . but life affirming. Sex and drugs and rock an' roll is very good, no doubt. Suffering has layers.
The real pleasures, euphorias, samadhis are independent of forms. However being drawn into them and if very advanced mindfully right into the hell realms themself, is too advanced for me. For now the occasional picknick will suffice.
Life affirmation = unskilful? Indulgence? Real? Rhetorical questions needing answers?
Where is the independent of forms? space is a form? only the one is without form. That is where we are from. The mind is not the brain. The mind is in the one. We are all connected to the one.
What is "the one"?
The one is the creator. The one without a second. All forms come from the creator. That is why this is an illusion.
So are you talking about some idea of "God"?
No there are no gods without the creator. Nothing is real except the one your body is an illusion. This universe is an illusion. This universe with billions and billions of stars. Is made of only 108 different atoms. The atoms are real to the illusion but they are not real to the one. The one is what there is an all that there is.
Stop drinking the bong water, @Greg911, and step away from the keyboard.
If it is all illusion, what is it that imagines the illusion?
If what you say is true, the creator is delusional.
When you enter the one (creator) you enter the whole past and the whole future. Once there you can travel either way. While the past is fixed the future is not. It is only what will be if not acted differently by us in the present. This is not really important it just is. You have passed away for birth and death and have taken your place in the eternal one (creator)
What imagines the illusion? it is the creator that that creates the universe and the atoms.
I could tell you more but I don't want Tosh to start drinking bon water.
If the creator created the universe then the creator is somehow apart from all that is... That means the creator is not.
That means the universe was not created.
Of course something that has always been has little need for a creator.
This idea of a "creator" doesn't sound like a Buddhist teaching. Where have you got it from?
The G-word again? Does it always come to that?
The problem is not the G-word. The problem is the word period.
your definition of the word is the meaning you give to it.
What is the Buddhist teaching? It is the meaning not the words.
The meaning is in the words. What if you aren't getting the correct meaning? There is no point in carrying on making it up as you go along when you have skipped the basics.
but the illusion does.
What are the basics?
An illusion is a misrepresentation and is only created by seeing things as they are not.
The universe has no need of an absolute beginning and to posit one seems illogical as there is no such thing as nothing.
The illusion does not exist without the one (creator)
The first basic is avoiding fishy Cod based creation mythologies instead of the life we know. Buddhists tend to focus on the lie we know.
The lie we know is that life is somehow benevolent. It is us who create a benevolent approach to our experience irrespective of irrelevant Cods, Santa Clauses and wishful mysteries. In other words Dharma is pragmatic.
So as the OP (Original Poster - c'est moi) mentions, regression is introducing spurious, useless or unnecessary directions to our practice. For example the importance of Cod, Astrology or Buddhists made in heaven theories. That is basic.
However you are new so may not have a Buddhist practice devoid of The Creator of Nothing, emptiness or our evolving mind. So do we have to consolidate where you are maybe? Of course, just as you show us the courtesy and kindness of your interaction.
Do you feel @Greg911 Buddhist progress can be made without 'Ye Olde Original Creator'? I find most of us can-can.
^^^What you have written, @lobster, sort of resonates with me, but I'm not altogether sure what button to press.
It is late in the Southern Cone of the world and maybe I need some sleep... :scratch: ..
Will settle for LOL, none or sleep first . . .
Yeah, @lobster, I find your English so quizzical sometimes.
At least I have the chance to re-read your comments.
I wonder how much I would understand you if we were chatting over a cup of coffee...
It is alright to play in the mud as long as you know where the sun is.
You must verify everything yourself. You must give it meaning.
You take my Creator as a person it is not it creates. No one has asked me how it creates.
@Greg911: the Buddha did not bother much with the Creator issue.
Some of us here don't either.
If something cannot exist without something else, you can bet they are actually the same thing.
The creator and the illusion.
Why wood he. He didn't know where his path would lead. When it was fruitful he let us know.
Yes, that is true they are. It is your knowledge that separates them. Your point of view that changes.
@Greg911: I'd like to understand something here.
Are you new to Buddhism? Are you a Buddhist practitioner? Are you a mix-match?
You believe in... God?
I have been a practicing Yogi for 45 years. I have two master gurus. I have been initiated by the HL. initiated by MA from India.
I believe Buddhism is the path the Buddha took from this point.
If you think there is more than one God I do not believe in God. l
Indeed.
However we need to verify why we are so befuddled by irrelevance. In Buddhism there are ghosts, angry gods or Titans, normalise gods and internal mind states of the human world: the six realms.
http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/tp/Six-Realms-of-Existence.htm
Now not being an aristocrat versed in traditional dogma of ye Olde Shakyamuni warrior clan, I am aware of mind states but not the fantasies of Buddha time. I have to reinterpret the stories in the light of what is knowable to me. Verify as you say.
Indeed.
So now that you have yogied, been initiated and Sat Gurued into Dharma, what is the plan?
Looking forward to fruit not dead leaves.
.
I have been given may experiences you refer to I do not think of what it must be like. I have experience of them.
There is no magic in the world.
please forgive me for any stress I may cause. It is my hope that it will help you to grow. What I say is always in line with what Buddha said.
At least what you think or believe he said.
Buddha never talked of a creator.
^^I agree.
The Buddha never talked of a creator.
I do think he left the idea of ultimate being somewhat up in the air but a conscious creator flies in the face of DO.
If @Greg911 is speaking of a creative force like the Tao then there is some wiggle room because - like emptiness- the Tao is potential.
In my view the only thing that could have existed before there was anything is the potential for everything.
and the only thing that is different is I believe that potential has the Past and future in it. Also that it has the ability to express itself. The Universe is one of the ways it does that.
Where do you think the Buddha saw his past lives?
^^^
On the moon maybe?
In the Buddhist Śaśajâtaka (Jataka Tale 316),[3] a monkey, an otter, a jackal, and a rabbit resolved to practice charity on the day of the full Moon (Uposatha), believing a demonstration of great virtue would earn a great reward.
Bugs bunny invented by Buddha, read all about it boys and girls . . .
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_Rabbit
Fantasies for children, the credulous and infantile? Too harsh? OK sleepy time . . .
What is truth and what is ignorance.