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@anataman said:
because Chaz - boddhisattva vows are unrealistic and unachievable, like other religious vows in other religions, and as I alluded in another thread - you cannot become buddha. You are either have buddha as your nature or you don't, and it's realising it that leads to the awakened state.
Let me ask you a simple question - does sitting on a lotus leaf for all eternity smiling beneficently as others unfold and pop out of their lotus leafs and smile back beneficently really appear to be a great way to spend eternity?
I enjoy life and it's experiences, it's ups. downs and surprises, occasionally realising the wonder and amazement of it all. But then I'm just a human being, and not a buddha am I. When everything is spontaneously arising every moment, and everyone is free to do what they want - THIS is what you get: Samsara/Nirvana - it's a double-edged sword, and where you stand in the bhavachakra is where you are, going up or going down, but never really going anywhere.
I'm not being antagonistic here btw - I'm giving a view.
As strange as this might seem The Buddha does not make the truth. The truth is already there. If there comes a point in your life were your desirer to remain is the only one you have that desire will stop you from continuing. The difference is then that you are aware of what that decision will cost. As apposed to the person who desire is to return to his sailboat.
I have absolutely no idea what you mean @Greg911. Truth is a relative phenomenon, and is constantly having to be revised, according to what people discover and determine as laws and logical statements, which is in itself a complete unreality, other than to the person doing the conceptualising, and forcing themselves to live under the laws they determine for themselves and each and everyone of us.
I know what I meant. But if you are referring to being a ferry master, or the guide who takes you to the other shore - I get that - but I'm not a ferry master, I'm just enjoying the view, and the view on either side of the shore is the same only it has a different perspective, and whilst you may like one, you may soon yearn for the other.
Please expand a little more, and I'll try and understand you better! or perhaps I do understand you.
I do not desire to remain, life sucks, and it is is also amazing - but what is there that will be saved and where is it going? A place of salvation - heaven? As far as I can work out I occupy this space, and am having this and that experience. BUT as everything, as previously pointed out and is manifest in the mahayana doctrine of the flower garland sutra! I'm here already, and I'm going nowhere else, and if I am, I won't be what I really am will I?
Now does anyone really get the point and thrust of this thread? one is jiriki, the other tariki.
0
Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
edited October 2014
You seem to be talking about Emptiness, but spinning it in a confusing fashion so that no one understands what you're talking about. Naturally there's nothing to be saved from and no one to be saved... but there's still suffering, its cause, its cessation, and the path leading to its cessation.
We still need to use conventions to discuss and convey information; failing that, there's nothing to talk about.
I do enjoy my interaction with you btw Chaz - I just think you have a one dimensional approach to things, that does not give me the freedom I need!
The whole post is so patronising, I didn't give it quote-room.
Kindly refrain from supplying critiques of how you view the Practice Condition of others.
It is not for you to judge or comment on what a person's approach is.
If you do not have the freedom you mention, that's a problem with your perception, not their approach.
1
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@federica said:
(Joan Armatrading, 'Drop the Pilot').
Had to look that one up to appreciate it! .
My grandmother's paternal grandmother COULD aim. She used to take the kids out for a last pee and just lift her skirts and pee straight out standing up. My grandmother and her cousins tried it too and soaked their leggings.
Anatman - I think you ask a good question but have it slightly wrong.
"You can however, develop an attitude where one realises - that that's the way it is, and one day I'll be free of it!"
Surely not. If one realises then one realises and one is free right now. If it's still 'one day' in the future then so is the realisation.
"Boddhisattva vows are unachievable vows from a human perspective."
Yes. It would be necessary to transcend this perspective. It is a commitment to such a transcendence, and the commitment aids progress.
This comes from as article on the Corpus Hermeticum. Same old perennial doctrine. It seems relevant in that it is suggestive. Pardon the mention of God. Feel free to interpret Him out of the story.
‘This alone, the knowledge of God, is man’s salvation; this is the ascent to Olympus; by this alone can a soul become good.’ The experience is one of rebirth. ‘I can tell you nothing but this; I see that by God’s mercy there has come to be in me a form which is not fashioned out of matter, and I have passed out of myself and entered into an immortal body! I am not now the man I was; I have been born again in spirit, and the bodily shape which was mine before has been put away from me. I am no longer an object coloured and tangible, a thing of spatial dimensions; I am now alien to all this, and all that you perceive when you gaze with bodily eyesight. To such eyes as yours, my son, I am not now visible.’
@Florian I have no problem with the concept of god - it's a name that allows you to relate to an idea of something that is incomprehensible, or ineffable; I see the point you make... But do not wish to spin things further out of context or continue to appear to be patronising to others views, or continue to be misinterpreted, or be mis-read - for me there is nothing to be saved. For others there is.
And somewhere in the middle of the extremes is the answer. But unless you see where the extremes lie, how can you descriminate and make up your mind... The most appropriate comment to make on a website such as this is to be non-committal it seems...
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I wouldn't say there is nothing to save but I would say there is nothing to be saved from except our views.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Emptiness Is not the Void.
Emptiness and form arise together. You can't have one without the other. With out form nothing can be emptiness. Without emptiness there can be no form because there is nothing to form to. The Universe is in the emptiness made with the form.
the one has no form because it is one without a second and there is no emptiness.
I would only add, or reiterate, that emptiness and form are one and the same, and yet it is the differentiating factor that you bring with your separate conscious attentive mind, that produces the world as it is from your relative point of view.
So how do you feel you should act when you know this?
emptiness and form is the big ban in action. This creates the illusion.
fire can not burn you
wind can not dry you
water can not wet you
earth can not bury you
When you know who you are take care of you body joyfully.
Do not let the Ego be turned to the illusion. and be at peace.
@robot said:
Oh. I've spent my share of time pondering karma and the self, but I've never come up with that.
well ponder what I said and see if it fits. If it doesn't it doesn't. It is up to each one of us to find the truth and the fruit. You maybe able to see it differently later or I may be able to see it differently. This is just my view of it. I respect your view what ever it is.
I'm not very knowledgeable in this area lol. But I like Buddhism's notion of what happens after death more so than, say, the Christian religion's notion of heaven (which I was raised with). I feel like I can connect the dots so much more clearly - it's like whatever I do that is harmful shall be done to me in future lives and whichever negative states I purify and overcome, I will feel the merit of whereas in Christianity there is this vagueness - if you're 'good' you go to heaven, the cause and effect is a lot more vague. And also in Buddhism it's down to you - a soul to be granted salvation is connected to something external.
I think it's more like we have consciousness, rather than a separate soul and this is what flows from one life to the next. I just see each life as a learning stage.
@Vanilli - you may not see things in the way I do or perhaps are forgetting one thing. This self conscious knowledge of your being, or consciousness, ceases at the time of death with the mortal body. Being reborn again, where everything that you may have possibly experienced in whatever form, that has gone before is forgotten, can only be re-learned as taught as their and your history by your parents and teachers.
In buddhism you learn one thing, you depend on everything and nothing and vice versa, this universe is nothing yet everything whilst you live. What appears externally is how you appear internally.
In my world, everything has been granted liberty to do what it wants, and I am liberated to experience it in the way I desire. If I desire this, and make an effort to get it, there are consequences; If I try to exert influence on anything, that energy comes back in ways, I cannot forsee, the stronger I push, the more I feel I am pushed back.
@federica - you've been given access to additional emoticons!!!! - before moderation ego, emoticons. After moderation ego - extra emoticons - what else have you got up your sleeve?
:bang_head: (damn - thought I was clever enough to have figured that one out early!)
...\lol/...
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Type a colon: followed by any letter you like. it brings up a range of emoticons. The lettern you choose needn't necessarily be the first letter of the emoticon.
But :frustration/banghead: look I know NB is not a democracy, but if I offer incence, not the smelly kind, but the other kind, will you be gifted it by @Linc do you think, or shall I have to resort to being a fink! ...\lol/...
Well I still can't lol at myself despite many requests to do so - so I guess the answer will be NO! I'll just accept it for what it is
2
SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
Comments
:bowdown: Thanks Norman
transformation is the key:
The 3 liberations are:
the conditionless (or signless) liberation (animitta),
the desireless liberation (apanihita),
the emptiness (or void) liberation (suññat).
As strange as this might seem The Buddha does not make the truth. The truth is already there. If there comes a point in your life were your desirer to remain is the only one you have that desire will stop you from continuing. The difference is then that you are aware of what that decision will cost. As apposed to the person who desire is to return to his sailboat.
I have absolutely no idea what you mean @Greg911. Truth is a relative phenomenon, and is constantly having to be revised, according to what people discover and determine as laws and logical statements, which is in itself a complete unreality, other than to the person doing the conceptualising, and forcing themselves to live under the laws they determine for themselves and each and everyone of us.
I know what I meant. But if you are referring to being a ferry master, or the guide who takes you to the other shore - I get that - but I'm not a ferry master, I'm just enjoying the view, and the view on either side of the shore is the same only it has a different perspective, and whilst you may like one, you may soon yearn for the other.
Please expand a little more, and I'll try and understand you better! or perhaps I do understand you.
I do not desire to remain, life sucks, and it is is also amazing - but what is there that will be saved and where is it going? A place of salvation - heaven? As far as I can work out I occupy this space, and am having this and that experience. BUT as everything, as previously pointed out and is manifest in the mahayana doctrine of the flower garland sutra! I'm here already, and I'm going nowhere else, and if I am, I won't be what I really am will I?
Now does anyone really get the point and thrust of this thread? one is jiriki, the other tariki.
You seem to be talking about Emptiness, but spinning it in a confusing fashion so that no one understands what you're talking about.
Naturally there's nothing to be saved from and no one to be saved... but there's still suffering, its cause, its cessation, and the path leading to its cessation.
We still need to use conventions to discuss and convey information; failing that, there's nothing to talk about.
try this
>
OI!! Speak for yourself! "I'm right on target, my aim is straight!"
(Joan Armatrading, 'Drop the Pilot').
>
The whole post is so patronising, I didn't give it quote-room.
Kindly refrain from supplying critiques of how you view the Practice Condition of others.
It is not for you to judge or comment on what a person's approach is.
If you do not have the freedom you mention, that's a problem with your perception, not their approach.
Had to look that one up to appreciate it!
.
My grandmother's paternal grandmother COULD aim. She used to take the kids out for a last pee and just lift her skirts and pee straight out standing up. My grandmother and her cousins tried it too and soaked their leggings.
Anatman - I think you ask a good question but have it slightly wrong.
"You can however, develop an attitude where one realises - that that's the way it is, and one day I'll be free of it!"
Surely not. If one realises then one realises and one is free right now. If it's still 'one day' in the future then so is the realisation.
"Boddhisattva vows are unachievable vows from a human perspective."
Yes. It would be necessary to transcend this perspective. It is a commitment to such a transcendence, and the commitment aids progress.
This comes from as article on the Corpus Hermeticum. Same old perennial doctrine. It seems relevant in that it is suggestive. Pardon the mention of God. Feel free to interpret Him out of the story.
‘This alone, the knowledge of God, is man’s salvation; this is the ascent to Olympus; by this alone can a soul become good.’ The experience is one of rebirth. ‘I can tell you nothing but this; I see that by God’s mercy there has come to be in me a form which is not fashioned out of matter, and I have passed out of myself and entered into an immortal body! I am not now the man I was; I have been born again in spirit, and the bodily shape which was mine before has been put away from me. I am no longer an object coloured and tangible, a thing of spatial dimensions; I am now alien to all this, and all that you perceive when you gaze with bodily eyesight. To such eyes as yours, my son, I am not now visible.’
@Florian I have no problem with the concept of god - it's a name that allows you to relate to an idea of something that is incomprehensible, or ineffable; I see the point you make... But do not wish to spin things further out of context or continue to appear to be patronising to others views, or continue to be misinterpreted, or be mis-read - for me there is nothing to be saved. For others there is.
And somewhere in the middle of the extremes is the answer. But unless you see where the extremes lie, how can you descriminate and make up your mind... The most appropriate comment to make on a website such as this is to be non-committal it seems...
Not views - illusions.
And herein lies the problem, what differentiates an illusion from a view of things as they appear to be!
It's difficult, mark my words, but there is an intrinsic knowledge that rights wrong view, but it requires a certain effort to attain the right view.
Emptiness Is not the Void.
Emptiness and form arise together. You can't have one without the other. With out form nothing can be emptiness. Without emptiness there can be no form because there is nothing to form to. The Universe is in the emptiness made with the form.
the one has no form because it is one without a second and there is no emptiness.
@Greg911 I think you have made a very good point.
I would only add, or reiterate, that emptiness and form are one and the same, and yet it is the differentiating factor that you bring with your separate conscious attentive mind, that produces the world as it is from your relative point of view.
So how do you feel you should act when you know this?
Just a thought?
emptiness and form is the big ban in action. This creates the illusion.
fire can not burn you
wind can not dry you
water can not wet you
earth can not bury you
When you know who you are take care of you body joyfully.
Do not let the Ego be turned to the illusion. and be at peace.
Keh?
Sorry I don't know what that means. could you explain it in another way?
I think it's English for "huh?".
Or "eh?" In Canadian.
You have no self the self has you.
What kind of sense does that make?
Are you talking about a soul or atman? Doesn't compute.
I am talking about karma. what make you rebirth? What determines where in which plane? Karma. Karma is the soul
Oh. I've spent my share of time pondering karma and the self, but I've never come up with that.
well ponder what I said and see if it fits. If it doesn't it doesn't. It is up to each one of us to find the truth and the fruit. You maybe able to see it differently later or I may be able to see it differently. This is just my view of it. I respect your view what ever it is.
I will think about that. An unbroken stream of cause and effect as the self has a kind of ring to it. Thanks.
I'm not very knowledgeable in this area lol. But I like Buddhism's notion of what happens after death more so than, say, the Christian religion's notion of heaven (which I was raised with). I feel like I can connect the dots so much more clearly - it's like whatever I do that is harmful shall be done to me in future lives and whichever negative states I purify and overcome, I will feel the merit of whereas in Christianity there is this vagueness - if you're 'good' you go to heaven, the cause and effect is a lot more vague. And also in Buddhism it's down to you - a soul to be granted salvation is connected to something external.
I think it's more like we have consciousness, rather than a separate soul and this is what flows from one life to the next. I just see each life as a learning stage.
@Vanilli - you may not see things in the way I do or perhaps are forgetting one thing. This self conscious knowledge of your being, or consciousness, ceases at the time of death with the mortal body. Being reborn again, where everything that you may have possibly experienced in whatever form, that has gone before is forgotten, can only be re-learned as taught as their and your history by your parents and teachers.
In buddhism you learn one thing, you depend on everything and nothing and vice versa, this universe is nothing yet everything whilst you live. What appears externally is how you appear internally.
In my world, everything has been granted liberty to do what it wants, and I am liberated to experience it in the way I desire. If I desire this, and make an effort to get it, there are consequences; If I try to exert influence on anything, that energy comes back in ways, I cannot forsee, the stronger I push, the more I feel I am pushed back.
Sitting at ease - the world comes easily...
Just my thoughts btw
Before enlightenment, the laundry. After enlightenment, the laundry.
Oooh, that's original!
@federica - you've been given access to additional emoticons!!!! - before moderation ego, emoticons. After moderation ego - extra emoticons - what else have you got up your sleeve?
:bang_head: (damn - thought I was clever enough to have figured that one out early!)
...\lol/...
Type a colon: followed by any letter you like. it brings up a range of emoticons. The lettern you choose needn't necessarily be the first letter of the emoticon.
:trollface: I like this one!
:warning: and this one!
But :frustration/banghead: look I know NB is not a democracy, but if I offer incence, not the smelly kind, but the other kind, will you be gifted it by @Linc do you think, or shall I have to resort to being a fink! ...\lol/...
Well I still can't lol at myself despite many requests to do so - so I guess the answer will be NO! I'll just accept it for what it is
But apt right then?
One of my favourite original tracks of all time - thanks for the reminder:
Enjoy dharma friends!
Sorry @SarahT had to go to the left to counteract the right lol... Or i'd be off centre