I have a question about a book I'm reading and buddhism in general.

rickyd123

I've been bouncing around the edges of Buddhism for years trying to learn about it. What it means to be a follower. How to practice it ect... I'm reading The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on sudden illumination. I'm only on about page 50, and I'm pretty confused. That's what I've experienced in general with Buddhism. I've went to my local temple, and the people practicing didn't seem able to explain it to me either. I don't want to make this post ten pages long so I'll start with my first confusion.
It's the attempt to reach Nirvana. If I'm understanding it right, which is a big IF, certain things have to be obtained, certain states of mind. Buddhism has names for them. I don't know them. But the very attempt to reach these states makes them impossible to reach.
This book also seems to state that Buddhist shouldn't think about anything. The goal is to blank the mind completely. I've tried that, it's very hard to do. Am I misunderstanding something. Is he talking about just meditation or all the time. I have many questions about meditation, but I'll leave those for another time. I hope my rambling isn't too confusing.

Toraldris

You've started at the wrong end; you should be reading books about Buddhist fundamentals, not Zen (which is a tradition meant to be passed master-to-student anyway, not learned in a book).

I recommended this page to someone the other day, so I'll recommend it to you too: http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/basic-guide.htm

rickyd123

Thanks. I knew I was jumping ahead. I've read other introductory Buddhism books. Nothing seems to be sinking in though. I'll checkout your link. Thanks again.

rohit

Making mind calm is the real process to gain insight.
Mind is just like a pond. What is needed to make water of a pond still?
Let it be still it's own!

This website might help you with real practical method of meditation.

http://www.dhamma.org/en/locations/directory

rickyd123

I'll check it out thanks

Zenshin

You may find this series of videos on meditation by AJahn Jayasaro of the Theravada Thai Forest Tradition useful.

http://vimeo.com/album/180330

genkaku

I disagree that you are somehow jumping 'ahead.' There is no "ahead." But if you are utterly flummoxed and a book is keeping you from an actual-factual practice, then I suppose you could put it down for a while.

I always liked what I thought of as the "old guys" -- Hui Neng, Hui Hai, Obaku, Dogen, etc. There were times when I didn't know what the hell they were talking about, but I read it anyway ... and then read it again. Over time, my experience was that it is not so important to understand what you are reading. That may sound weird, but I have a feeling that this stuff sinks in at a level that is anything but intellectual or emotional.

Obaku, for example, scared the crap out of me. I read one book and felt as if he were yelling at me from off the page ... really cussing me out on every single page. I finished the book with relief and then, because it seemed to be the only thing that made sense, I began all over again. Call it masochism, if you like, but much the same can be said of many Buddhist practices.

Still, if it's too much, find something a little more cuddly -- "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" for example, or almost any of Trungpa Rinpoche's books. Read whatever you like and don't ask to understand every comma and semi-colon. Read and ...

Keep up your good practice.

Hamsaka

I'm one that loved Zen but could not 'begin' there. It made sense but in no way that I could engage with. I had to start with the most westernized, sterilized (from religion ) 'version' of mindfulness in order to have the rest of the lotus open up. It's really OK to be a helpless materialist and need Sesame Street. We're all goin' to the same place anyway.

Jeffrey

You can never blank the mind. Well if you do it is an illusion because it comes to an end.

You are already having a clear mind. You don't have to make it so. Dzogchen pursued that question: why do I have to practice if I am already having awakened mind?

Jeffrey

@Toraldris said:
You've started at the wrong end; you should be reading books about Buddhist fundamentals, not Zen (which is a tradition meant to be passed master-to-student anyway, not learned in a book).

I recommended this page to someone the other day, so I'll recommend it to you too: http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/basic-guide.htm

Wrong. Zen is also a beginning. With a sangha it is a full path rather than bits and pieces.

Toraldris

@Jeffrey "Duh". I mean c'mon seriously. That was a response to the nebulous general confusion expressed in the opening post, not a judgment upon Zen. If anything it would be a judgment upon sources that skip over the basics to try and teach a mystical- and paradoxical-sounding Zen that we're used to hearing quips about. That's never good for a beginner. Fundamentals are good.

Toraldris

@rickyd123‌ I almost forgot, but recent posts reminded me... If you're interested in joining an online (Soto) Zen sangha (the supportive community @Jeffrey's talking about), you should check out Treeleaf Zendo at http://www.treeleaf.org. They have teachers there and videos on teachings, all kinds of helpful stuff!

You can't go wrong there.

lobster

^^^ Another place for Zeniths is http://www.zenforuminternational.org
They have an 'ask a teacher section' and also a section for those without teachers, as well as the usual section for what @federica‌ calls 'wise guys', some of whom are scholars, decades long practitioners and the usual dabblers.

Treeleaf is also excellent. Two great Wester teachers, plus guests. Sit togethers and Zen communication through the the net . . .

Hope that is helpful .

seeker242

@rickyd123 said:
This book also seems to state that Buddhist shouldn't think about anything. The goal is to blank the mind completely. I've tried that, it's very hard to do. Am I misunderstanding something. Is he talking about just meditation or all the time. I have many questions about meditation, but I'll leave those for another time. I hope my rambling isn't too confusing.

I've always found this to be helpful regarding the "no thinking" thing. http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/shikantaza.html

It is a serious mistake in the understanding of Zen to refer merely to the "denial" or "cessation" of "conceptual thinking." Regardless of whether or not it can be proven than the pre-Buddhist Sanskrit etymology of the term Dhyana can be shown to have no-thought connotations, the main concern here is the semantic development undergone by the Chinese term ch'an (Zen) in the course of the production of the Ch'an texts in East Asia.

It is quite clear that in Ch'an Buddhism, no-mind, rather than referring to an absence of thought, refers to the condition of not being trapped in thoughts, not adhering to a certain conceptual habit or position.

The error of interpretation made by many scholars (and by Zen practitioners as well) lies precisely in taking the term "no-thought" to refer to some kind of permanent, or ongoing absence of thought. While this assumption is routinely made, it is impossible to corroborate it in the Ch'an canon. If we study the seminal texts carefully, we do find a description of the experience of an instantaneous severing of thought that occurs in the course of a thoroughgoing pursuit of a Buddhist meditative exercise.

Nowhere in the Platform Sutra, Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, Diamond Sutra, or any other major Ch'an text, is the term "no-mind" explained to be a permanent incapacitation of the thinking faculty or the permanent cessation of all conceptual activity.

The locus classicus for the concept of no-thought is the Platform Sutra, and in regards to no-thought says in so many words:

"No-thought" means "no-thought within thought." Non-abiding is man's original nature. Thoughts do not stop from moment to moment. The prior thought is succeeded in each moment by the subsequent thought, and thoughts continue one after another without cease. If, for one thought-moment, there is a break, the dharma-body separates from the physical body, and in the midst of successive thoughts there will be no attachment to any kind of matter. If, for one thought-moment, there is abiding, then there will be abiding in all successive thoughts, and this is called clinging. If, in regard to all matters there is no abiding from thought-moment to thought-moment, then there is no clinging. Non-abiding is the basis.

As we can see, after the break in thought, successive thoughts continue to flow, but one no longer abides in, or clings to, these thoughts. Nowhere is there mention of any kind of disappearance of, or absence of thought. "No-thought" refers to nothing other than an absence of abiding, or clinging. Other seminal Ch'an texts, such as the Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, characterize no-thought in precisely the same manner.

rickyd123

I really appreciate everyone's help and thoughts. Thanks

Buddhadragon

Charlotte Joko Beck makes Zen very easy to grasp.
And I love Bodhidharma.

David

@Jeffrey said:
Wrong. Zen is also a beginning. With a sangha it is a full path rather than bits and pieces.

For me it was a logical beginning as well since I studied Taoism before Buddhism.

I'd recommend The Heart of the Buddha's Teachings by Thich Nhat Hanh. It's great for a beginner and is more gentle in his Zen approach than some of his counterparts.

Also O/P, maybe try to extend the space between thoughts rather than not think.

zenff

If I'm understanding it right, which is a big IF, certain things have to be obtained, certain states of mind. Buddhism has names for them. I don't know them. But the very attempt to reach these states makes them impossible to reach.

Somewhere in your question I suppose the crucial question about the nature of enlightenment is hiding.

I – like many people – have to take a deep breath before starting to “explain” that one.
Usually though I try to bring the “big” theoretical question back to a “small” practical level.
What can I practice right now? I can do meditation; I can stop over-thinking a particular problem I am facing right now and have more trust; I can give someone close some practical help; I can enjoy the leaves falling from the tree etc.

I hope you can find a way of making Bhuddhism part of your life and that in doing so Buddhism will contribute to the beauty and the meaning of your everyday life.

lobster

^^^ Good answer from @‌zenff

The states of mind are inevitable. They follow a pattern which can to a degree be formulated:

• Focussed practice or concentrated effort: this varies but for most it entails sitting still, walking meditation or perhaps devotional mantra, prostrations, efforts to be mindful and aware.

• Attention to arisings: mental, emotional, mind clutter, attachments etc

• Discipline or Śīla: not being swayed, carried away by, overwhelmed by negative and eventually positive arisings

• Residing: stream entrant into beneficial, skilful equanimity etc

. . . now we might talk about emptying and stillness, non-thought or enlightened being . . . first things first . . .

:vimp: .

Chaz

@rickyd123 said:
It's the attempt to reach Nirvana. If I'm understanding it right, which is a big IF, certain things have to be obtained, certain states of mind. Buddhism has names for them. I don't know them. But the very attempt to reach these states makes them impossible to reach.

A wise man would not attempt what is impossible. So, if you truly see the path to enlightenment/nirvana as impossible, then don't waste your time trying to reach it.

Fortunately, for all of us, it is possible. The Buddha reached it, so we can, too. BUT you still have to believe it's possible, because if you don't you won't reach it.

It's that simple.