Scandal....?
Chaz
The Remarkable ChazAnywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
Or just a load of BS?
There's been a bit of a !@#$storm raging over on Twitter. It involves alleged tweets by Robert Thurman kinda/sorta floating the idea of getting the hacker crew Anonymouus to dig up some dirt on Shugden-folk who have been beating on the Dalai Lama via Twitter.
It's been dubbed Lamagate.
I first heard of this via a post by Ven Dharmakara over on Free Sangha the other day. He referred to this as a scandal.
I did a bit of research on the matter and it seems this so-called scandal is mainly limited to to Twitter where there's been, apparently, a non-stop series of tweets and retweets about it. Very little is said about this outside twitter and some pro-Shugden/anti-Dalai Lama bogs. Nothing at all, it seems, in the mainstream media about the "scandal". I find this strange because they are generally eager to post news about goings-on with the DL.
No comment from Thurman or the DLs office.
Personally I'm skeptical. The Shugden folk have had a bug up their butt about the DL and his repudiation and banning of their practice. They are tech-savy and use it effectively. They protest the DL's activity every chance they get. If there was anything to the allegations, Thurman and the DL would respond, but they haven't so far as I can tell. Also I've seen no real proof that Thurman acted as alleged (a bitmap "copy" which can be easily forged using Photoshop or GIMP). The activity is restricted, largely, almost exclusively, to Twitter. Something about this doesn't ring true for me. I don't see a scandal. I see a bunch of petulant Buddhists crying in their beer and a conservative organisation ostracising them.
I tend to steer clear of the Shugden/DL controversy. I don't like either side of it and if it's accomplished anything at all it's to expose a dark underbelly in the Gelug tradition.
Has anyone else been following this story? Thoughts?
Comments
I would love to respond intelligently, but I neither twitter, nor follow a great deal on the comings and goings of all involved factions.
However, I will say that "Twitter trolls" are to be legally sentenced to anything up to 2 years in prison for 'tweeting' maliciously, and generally causing a great deal of trouble,...
The mainstream media won't touch it because mainstream media followers don't know the background or the participants, other than the DL.
It would be difficult to explain in 30 seconds and true or not, it's not that newsworthy IMO.
I witnessed Bob tweet soliciting anonymous to hack accounts.
Google Images pulled this up:
I cannot comment about whether or not it's real or photoshopped, I found it exactly how I said.
Yup that's the one. Hack your enemies instead of having meaningful dialogue.
Yeah, I find that pretty disappointing since I really do like Bob Thurman... but hey, nobody is perfect, I guess.
My thoughts?
More of the same.
More thoughts.
The kind of turmoil generated around this controversy strengthens my conviction that one shouldn't hold so tightly to beliefs that one can't confirm or deny.
Thanks to the skeptics out there I've been able to let go of my attachment to beliefs I hold that I'm not fully certain of their validity, not that I don't have any of those beliefs, science doesn't know everything, but I make a point of not holding so tightly to them that I'd be as vulnerable to acting in such unskillful ways as those involved in this new wrinkle are behaving.
Stick to increasing ones compassion and insight, let God sort the rest out.
Yep, either that, or doctor a bitmap in Photoshop to discredit them.
Who to believe?
Yes, provided he's done something wrong in the first place.
Then can you point us to evidence to support that?
Also, can you provide any evidence that the DL is involved (if any wrongdoing is actually committed), other than a relationship with RT?
I think the scandal is that different Buddhist groups can't live and let live! Who is HHDL to say anything about a different sect of Buddhism? And why can't that sect just ignore HHDL? I would ignore him so hard...
That is someone pretending to be Uma Thurmans dad.
It is the work of a troll.
When I was helping Puppy Linux development one of our members was 'Bill Gates' the well known Billionaire and creator of Microsoft. The avatar used was a picture of Bill Gates. Must have been him?
Come on. Find something better to gossip about . . . oh wait this is what this is about - Dharma gossip.
This group is accused of being "media savvy," so...
Here's what Robert Thurman wrote for the Huffington Post a few days ago:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-thurman/dalai-lama-protests-_b_6096576.html
A salient point in the article is:
"In the case of the current wave of ISC "protests" against the Dalai Lama, we have to ask ourselves--what is the real motive? What does the small group of highly motivated, well-organized, seemingly media-savvy "protesters" really want? They say they want "religious freedom," but they have always had religious freedom in India or the West, nobody has banned them worshiping as they wish. Within Tibet they have special support from the Chinese government that dominates Tibet (not giving such freedom to pro-Dalai-Lama Tibetan Buddhists), and outside of Tibet they have their own monasteries, Meditation Centers, and support networks. Their Western followers are free to worship as they choose, and are also free to attack the Dalai Lama, as they are doing. They say they want to end "segregation," but they themselves choose to separate themselves from member of their own Gelukpa sect who decline to propitiate the protector entity they call Shugden, as well as from other sects of Buddhism.
They say they want human rights for their "millions" of followers, but no one in India or elsewhere deprives their actually very small numbers of individuals of human rights, as Amnesty International and the High Court of Delhi have asserted in rejecting their false claims. They are just as well provided for as other refugees, in terms of medical clinics, hospitals, schools, and their own chosen monasteries and communities. They say they want the Dalai Lama to agree with them that the fierce "deity," "spirit," that they call Dorje Shugden and most Tibetans call Dolgyal, is really a Buddha. They know the Dalai Lama thinks it is a hostile spirit, since he considers that it has been malevolent in history toward his former incarnations, and also toward the Tibetan people under his protection."
Another interesting link for those who care to know:
http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2014/09/26/revised-declaration-from-new-kadampa-survivors-concerning-the-demonstrations-against-his-holiness-the-dalai-lama/
The above link begins:
"We, the undersigned, as former members of the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT), and ex-practitioners of Dolgyal Shugden, are appalled and saddened that those who were once our NKT sangha demonstrate against and defame His Holiness the Dalai Lama."
So, in a nutshell, the idea is that New Kadampa Tradition always looks for an excuse to defame HH the Dalai Lama, Robert Thurman is an eminence in his field of work, and former members of New Kadampa Tradition have very ugly things to say about their former group.
http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2011/01/07/experiences-with-the-new-kadampa-tradition-and-kelsang-gyatso/
http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?12,126452
More of the usual, that is.
http://internationalshugdencommunity.com/
6 awkward truths for those who deny the Dalai Lama’s discrimination against Shugdens
Posted on November 6, 2014
To those who deny any kind of discrimination against Shugdens and who try to silence our protests, here are some facts you might find unsettling.
During our protests, we distribute photographs of shops, restaurants, medical facilities, even the Dalai Lama’s residence displaying signs reading ‘No Shugdens Allowed’ or similar. Doesn’t that make you even slightly uncomfortable? Would you be able to disregard this as easily if it said ‘No Blacks’, ‘No Gays’, ‘No Jews’?
Former Prime Minister of the Tibetan exile Parliament, Samdhong’s explanation for this:
“When privately owned restaurants and stores carry signs that say the Dholgyal worshippers are not welcome, then that is the freedom of the owners. That is their Fundamental Human Rights. […] Let alone that, in the hospitals, people infected with contagious diseases are quarantined and not allowed to meet with other people.” 26 July 2014, India.
In these words a faith community is being compared with a contagious disease, are you entirely comfortable with that?
We understand that people want to have faith in the Dalai Lama – who wouldn’t want him to be what his reputation declares him to be? – but everyone, and especially those with great power and influence need to be judged on their actions and not just on their words.
For years, the Dalai Lama’s personal website has promoted a call for the complete social exclusion of Shugdens, it urges:
“all other Tibetan organizations not to enroll anyone into their membership who venerates and worships (this native Tibetan Buddhist deity) Dholgyal.”
http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/tyc-resolution
The Tibetan Shugdens in the exile community are already refugees, if this call is heeded, then without question they are exiled again even from their own community.
Regardless of the slanders directed at Shugdens claiming them to be violent murderers and such like – even though not one of us has been convicted of any violent crime – the segregation we’re opposing is based simply on our faith choices and nothing more:
“Supposing someone asks the following question: For the purpose of forging unity between those who haven’t stopped Dholgyal worship and those who have stopped the worship, is there a way by which a Dholgyal worshipper could be accepted to continue with the worship? Then, what would be the response on our part? […] If one thinks that may be there is a way by which such a unity could be forged by both sides budging a little to make room for each other and give the Dholgyal worshippers the okay to continue with the worship, then (it should be understood that) there is no room for such an immunity. The option is only between continuing and discontinuing the worship.” – Samdhong, former prime minister of Tibetan parliament in exile, 26 July 2014, India.
Where is the tolerance and love in these comments? The only option presented to Shugdens is to abandon their faith, or be discarded from their communities. Are you comfortable that the Dalai Lama’s closest supporters see no way for Shugdens to be accepted within their society unless they give up their faith?
Before the Dalai Lama began his campaign against Shugdens, they were respected as valued members of the Tibetan community. Many of those who left Tibet with the Dalai Lama and helped establish a new community in exile were Shugdens.
At a press conference in the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham Alabama – the irony of which is not lost on us – the Dalai Lama said:
“This group, Shugden group…” pointing over his shoulder in the direction of the protestors, none of whom have any conviction for any violent crime and whose peaceful protests are praised by police forces around the world “… they also, you see, [involved in] murder cases.”
This baseless slander against innocent Shugdens is repeated not just by the Dalai Lama’s followers, but by the man himself, to give just a few examples:
“Shugden followers have resorted to killing and beating people. They start fires, and tell endless lies. It is no good.” January 2008, in India.
“The practitioners of Dholgyal are quite rough. First they killed the director of the institute of Dialectics in Dharmasala […] so the threat is always there.” January 2014, in India.
Even if some misguided Shugdens, acting in complete contradiction to their Buddhist faith, did engage in these horrible crimes, to brand an entire faith community as violent criminals would simply be prejudice.
These days we often see this kind of prejudice directed towards muslims and other minority groups, justifying all kinds of unseemly behavior. Most educated people denounce such prejudice, so we wonder how comfortable it is for the Dalai Lama’s defenders to hear him engaged in exactly the same prejudice and through it to justify the social exclusion of an entire faith community.
In the modern world we value the separation of church and state. We recognize faith choices as something precious and individual, not something that parliaments and governments should be passing laws to enforce or outlaw. How comfortable is it then to read the March 17 resolution of the Central Tibetan Administration that:
“recognises also the Dolgyal followers and others […] as criminals in history.”
http://tibet.net/dolgyal-shugden/tibetan-parliament-in-exiles-resolution-concerning-dolgyal-17-march-2014/
Shugden Buddhists have endured all manner of humiliation and intimidation since the Dalai Lama’s speeches in 1996 that accused them, and their prayers, of being a risk to his good health and an impediment to the struggle for a free Tibet – accusations so inflammatory, anyone with any intelligence could easily have predicted the animosity they would generate towards Shugdens. And yet, during those speeches and since, the Dalai Lama has never said one word to stop the flow of discrimination directed towards the Shugdens.
On the occasion of calling a referendum on whether or not to segregate Shugdens – the very notion of such a referendum should surely bring a sense of unease to those who value human rights – the Dalai Lama said:
“If it turns out that more than 60 – 70% says […] they want nothing to do with Dhogyal propitiators […] then obviously it is better for them to go back to [Tibet]. What is the point of staying here?”
The gauge of a healthy democracy is how well it takes care of its minorities. The world expects its leaders to show this example. Regardless of whatever else the Dalai Lama may have done, in this instance he is letting himself and the institution of the Dalai Lama down. We hope the Dalai Lama will change course and lead the Tibetan people in the direction of harmony. As things currently stand, his treatment of Shugdens is likely to remain an enduring stain on his reputation.
To those who are so keen on defending his reputation that they direct their criticisms towards us, we would like to encourage you, instead of trying to stamp out our protests, to please encourage him to follow his own advice and enter into dialogue, promote harmony and tolerance, and actively oppose the segregation and discrimination within his own society.
I'm aware of all that, and it's tragic, but what does that have to do, directly, with this "scandal" which involves someone endorsing "hacking" and I'm not convinced any such endorsement was actually made.
Sounds more to me like people would like us to believe it happened, regardless of the facts.
Actually, it's not against another sect, exactly. The Dorje Shugden practice used to be part of the Gelug (DL's lineage) practice lineage. Some years back the DL repudiated and banned that practice.
They do, actually. The NKT and other orgs were created, separate from the Gelug to promote and nuture that practice lineage and and continue today.
It seems they resent, to put it mildly, the DLs action even though they're still free to practice. The DL can't really stop that.
Welcome to the world of social media. A magical place where slander has no repercussions. Little wonder people are going to resort to the same tactics. And how much of it is truth? Your guess is as good as mine.
I'm aware of his HuffPo article, but I am reserving judgement with regards to the Tweet. Usually, one would expect him to have a verified Twitter account, no? Not always, of course, but that's usually how people who are at least fairly well-known try to dodge spoof accounts. I'd have to look into it more.
Just to be clear, I am not in favour of HH the Dalai Lama and against the Shugden, here.
But there are always two sides to one story, and if as Buddhists, we are constantly encouraged to appeal to the use of our critical faculties, we need to be informed by the media, not manipulated by it.
The truth must lie somewhere in-between.
http://buddhism.about.com/od/vajrayanabuddhism/a/shugden.htm
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA17/014/1998/en/6fce941e-da9e-11dd-80bc-797022e51902/asa170141998en.html
http://www.tibetswiss.ch/news-fullpage-reader/items/shugden-followers-baseless-allegations-a-rejoinder-from-the-central-tibetan-administration.html
http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2014/11/06/huffpost-sets-the-record-straight-6-things-you-should-know-about-the-anti-dalai-lama-protesters/
http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2014/11/08/new-distortions-robert-barnett-rejects-claims-by-international-shugden-community-isc/
The hardest thing for me is finding some kind of reliable, unbiased source of information about this. Pretty much everything I find about the issue is coming from one side or the other.
Same here.
It's difficult and neraly imppossible to find reliable, unbiased info on the "scandal" I don't really trust the pro-shugden camp, and niether Thurman or the DL's office have made any comment about it.
Musch of the discussion has trended towards the tangental issue of the ongoing Shugden controversy and away from the hacking. They're are saying/tweeting that Thurman and the DL endorse hacking but don't offer evidence to support the allegation - just that bitmapped copy/screenshot.
The DL's silenence may be telling, but the lack of comment can be taken as their not seeing anything worth commenting on re. the hacking allegation.
Baselesss allegations are a real turn-off for me.
The Dalai lama's ban doesn't really effect many directly in the west...its in the exile communities that the problem exists.
If in the west one was barred from a hospital, public building or shop because of ones religion or skin color we would naturally find such a thing appalling and see it as a violation of the individuals civil rights.
This happens all the time in exile communities in India. shops, hospitals and monastery's have signs outside excluding Shugden practitioners...there are wanted posters placed around listing the names & addresses of individuals and family's who practice shugden.
On the issue of Robert Thurman he has been directly extremist making sweeping accusations against shugden practitioners accusing them of being like the Taliban, murderers or agents of the Chinese, this latest debacle is Robert bringing it down to another level once again asking anonymous (whom are infamous for hacking accounts) to get information on shugden practitioners who where protesting on twitter.
I'm struggling to keep up with some of the details here. What is the official story? Has Robert commented on this situation at all? Was the tweet made and then retracted or was his account hacked?
I'm just curious because celebrities tend to comment on these types of situations and thus far, I've seen nothing from him (at least on his facebook). I feel like he would be less likely to comment if he did in fact make the tweet and then later retracted it... but if he were hacked, I don't see any reason why he wouldn't immediately make this known.
Irellevant and off-topic This is about the Lamagate "scandal" and not the plight to Tibetan exiles.
He's not the only one, but that, too is irrelevant unless that could be seen as eviddence of Thurman endorsing hacking, which, of course, it can't.
Actually that bitmap above says "get info out.." which isn't, exactly calling on someone to hack accounts. Souunds more like disemination of info not hacking to get it.
But still, I have yet to see any credible evidence
And this is most of the problem. There is not "offical story" on the matter
Nope. Not a word as far as I know.
this is the claim, but of course, there's really no way to determine facts in this regard.
Perhaps, or possibly spoofed, but there's nothing certain there, either.
Why would you say that? It could also be that he realizes that it's damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. Noone in the Shugden community seem liley to accept anything - truth or fiction.
Why? Would his detractors believe him? Doubtful.
I believe that, in accordance with US law, the accused is innocent until proven guilty. Period. I have yet to see conclusive proof, and frankly doubt that any is forthcoming. He need not say anything.
HHDL has not 'banned' the practice of Shugden; he has discouraged its practice.
Here is the article http://dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/his-holiness-advice
Problem is people from NKT want to make the HHDL publicly endorse and accept the practice, though the Dalai Lama has been very clear about his reasons for discouraging the practice.
I can only suppose that since this group relies heavily on the media, and aware of HHDL's important media presence, they would like to count with his support to continue with this practice.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/newkadampasurvivors/info
http://www.newkadampatruths.org/?page_id=83
http://info-buddhismus.de/new_kadampa_tradition.html
Problems are only humanly constructed.