Note To Self - Drop All Expectations Of Fellow Buddhists
AllbuddhaBound
Veteran
This appears to be a place where I often become trapped into judging others. It is a very difficult trap because I am often unaware I am caught. I justify this attitude in any number of ways and that only further deepens the self-righteousness of my attitude.
All of us do it, but I can become so thoroughly convinced I am justified that I begin to view the world in black and white, I've got the answers and you don't type of attitude. If I drop my expectations, It helps me with this the need to judge.
I sometimes convince myself that I have to judge to survive. Do I? Or do I need to be discriminating when it comes to choosing an action or response, but leave the judgment out of it? When judgment results in comparing myself with others, the result often becomes labeling and belittling. Feelings of superiority ensue. If I am ever to become aware and enlightened, this is definitely one of those blind spots I need to focus on in meditation.
Comments
Often it's as simple as seeking affirmation of our own beliefs. The conflict begins within us; we try to solve the conflict not within ourselves, but by changing someone else. This "need to be right" is born there, and it's tied up with our identity if we're people who care about holding correct views, so even being right can be a double-edged sword.
Discrimination seems a much better goal to me than judgment. I never have enough facts to truly judge a situation and, even more so, another person.
"Being right" has never bothered me. What interests me is understanding another person's point of view and learning from them. Have always found it the best way to learn! I may not agree but that's different. I can learn from that too - about where I am in a particular moment and about where they are.
I'm not certain there is any "correct view". There's just situations as I perceive them at any given time. Being "perfect" is not something I have ever wanted - what would be left for me to do on this planet? I would always rather have the possibility of growth. But yes, I do seek the skills to be able to identify and decide between possible routes of action; to determine which will do the least harm and, possibly, even some good?
/|\
Now maybe some of you will realise just what a tough job Moderating is.
Bear this in mind the next time you think about screwing my day up.
And come to think of it, possibly yours as well.
We had a huge debate on a thread a year or two ago about "Judgment" vs. "discernment". Actually, according to dictionary definitions, they're the same. But the word "judgment" has acquired negative connotations, so people shy away from it, especially in a buddhist context. Quite a few people in that discussion felt that judging was "bad", when in fact, all it means is "discerning". We all have to do that as we go through life, to avoid making mistakes. It's a normal healthy thing.
But your point is well-taken, OP. We shouldn't be labeling and looking askance at people, because that's egoic activity. But you see, mindfulness of one's mental habits is half the battle. Now that you're aware of the ego's hold on your thought processes, you can do something about it. Good going! This is progress.
For my own peace of mind, if discernment means the same thing as judgment, then I prefer to use discriminate (even though it can have negative connotations when viewed with racism in mind).
I prefer the first description in the following:
"dis·crim·i·nate
dəˈskriməˌnāt/
verb
verb: discriminate; 3rd person present: discriminates; past tense: discriminated; past participle: discriminated; gerund or present participle: discriminating
1.
recognize a distinction; differentiate.
"babies can discriminate between different facial expressions of emotion"
synonyms: differentiate, distinguish, draw a distinction, tell the difference, tell apart; More
perceive or constitute the difference in or between.
"bats can discriminate a difference in echo delay of between 69 and 98 millionths of a second"
2.
make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age.
"existing employment policies discriminate against women"
synonyms: be biased against, be prejudiced against; "
There is no assumption of value in the first and it explains the choices.
according to my understanding so far:
judgement- one thinks that 'i know better than the other person/persons, so what he/she/they do/speak is wrong'
discernment- one with knowledge of dependent co-arising, acts/speaks with good will, compassion
Oh also good idea to drop expectations of Fellow Humans, at least expectations that they'll somehow be smart... do hold them accountable for poor decisions that affect others.
Why do you believe YOU are entitled to hold them accountable for poor decisions that affect others?
By all means give them your opinion gently, on what you perceive may be a better way to engage with others. But holding them accountable means that you can play the blame game.
@federica Woah, I just mean the law. We do collectively hold people accountable; I'm saying we shouldn't add judgment on top of that. We shouldn't expect things of others aside from following common law (which is mostly not harming others). This is just the opposite of the blame game, which I'm very much against.
Nothing wakes you up like a textual slap in the face, phew! It's okay though, because you sure did misread my meaning. I'll not defend a position I don't take!
Ah. Right. Gotcha.....Fairy Nuff.
Mountains are sometimes hidden by clouds
The sky is only blue during the day
Seagulls do not fly backwards
Reality shines through countless lives of the esteemed ones
In other words, give yourself a break ....
Bravo.
We do label, judge, discriminate and discern differences. So human.
However ascribing value to our comparisons by devaluing others is not helpful or skilfull, especially if these superior feelings arise. The very thought of being above, better or more advanced/insightful etc does not serve us or them. Really we are judging ourselves . . .
We need to make choices to survive, sure. Our choices are dependent on our integrity not our evaluation of others.
I would suggest as we stop this human tendency through practice, we will learn to let go our own internal judgement against ourself. In this way we will inspire and encourage rather than the more usual tendency.
Does that sound like a judgement? Ah ha, still human. Take that and sit on it you lowly cushion . . .
Off the top of my head, the typical ego sees judgment as a kind of currency, in the economy of "I'm only OK if I'm better than you".
Since you (and I, and everyone) lack any real value while being absolutely priceless, the "I'm only OK if I'm better than you" game is for losers who don't realize losing is how you win
I see judgment and discrimination, as you use the words in your post, as meaning very different things, apples and oranges. They can happen at the same time, in other words, with different effects.
Your OP is everyone's OP
I hope you know that. You aren't particularly alone, there's lots of us nodding grimly along with you. Especially here 
.
?
This appears nonsensical to me @pineblossom - not that I think nonsense has no place in a world where rationality and irrationality coexist in harmony, but it probably means a whole lot more to you than me. Expand and simplify - sorry, just been helping my kid do his algebra homework! Algebra means to reunify broken parts did you know!
I hold no one in esteem above another; what am I letting go of that you appear to grasp? Especially with regard to the countless lives of the esteemed ones. What about their previous unaccounted unesteemed lives, or the esteemed one that became unaccountable.
Thoughts... just ever changing thoughts pineblottom...
This "So human" tendency —and its remedy— that Lobster speaks of reminds me of an old calendar I used to have. It depicted three kittens getting into so much mischief with yarns, baskets, and the like strewed everywhere as they played with each other with expressions of sublime joy on their little kitten faces. I guess it's the way that kittens "practice."
The caption below read: SUGGESTIONS WELCOME. (Not that the kittens would pay our suggestions any heed at all...)
`
As Rilke said, "All things want to float, and we go about like weights,
lay our self upon everything, delighted with gravity;
O what wearing teachers we are for things,
while they succeed at eternal childhood."
(Alles will schweben. Da gehn wir umher wie Beschwerer,
legen auf alles uns selbst, vom Gewichte entzückt;
o was sind wir den Dingen für zehrende Lehrer,
weil ihnen ewige Kindheit glückt.) —Sonnets to Orpheus, II:14
Sorry, this is probably the 10th time I've posted this piece from Rilke on NewBuddhist. Please forgive.
Don't forget that we also become trapped by being judged by others. We become trapped by the attitudes and narratives of the society we live in.
We trap others and are in turn trapped ourselves in the cycle.
The solution? Don't play the blame game.
-- Rudyard Kipling, If
My brother is terribly judgemental. He has a tendency to put everyone he meets on a pedestal, only to swoop them down the second they display the tiniest quirk.
Not that he passes his own person by the same filter, of course, but that's how judgemental people tend to be.
One day I had enough of his telling me that this person was also a jerk.
"If I think that So-and-so is a jerk, I have the right to tell him so, don't I?" he reasoned.
I answered: "Just because you think that So-and-so is a jerk, that does not make him a jerk. It just means that you think he is a jerk."
He pondered a second and said: "Well, how am I supposed to function in the world if I can't trust my own opinions?"
We have to know that our opinions, our judgements, tell one part of the truth.
We have to be able to tell when our opinions are getting in the way, trammeling communication with other fellow human beings, cropping the wider landscape.
Reality, people, are more than our personal idea about them.
They leave out the bigger picture.
An excellent and valuable insight worthy of Paris Hilton [sarcastic? moi?]
In my opinion, gained from picknicking in the hell realms, everyone including me is a jerk. [OK Mr Cushion present company excepted]. However very few are independent sufficiently from the reflect-back-on-us nature of our 'jerk free' opinions to consider this.
Your brother will grow up eventually, most people do . . .
[this message sponsored by 'Adopt a Jerk for Christmas' - a Paris Hilton Initiative]
The French have a saying: "We are are all someone's jerk."
I agree.
And we all judge.
But I cited my brother's example because he's extreme.
To the point of walking out on someone when his judgement has found the person guilty of charge and dismissable according to his very personal standards.
Some other circles share that saying.
Gosh, I did not realise this was a grown man
![:\](https://newbuddhist.com/plugins/emojiextender/emoji/little/confused.png ":\")
I thought I was replying to a teenager - I can be a jerk
The growing up comment was inappropriate. What you describe, is probably not to that unusual. Most people equate opinions with reality (IMHO).
Being free of this opinion based, judgemental mode is part of the 'spacousness' that people develop in their perception and was described in the OP.
We are all creatures of choice, so my choice of fantasy partner does not carry a rugger or any sort of ball. We of course accept the difference. Are we so accommodating with misguided Dharmaists, wayward Buddhists and non Sangha brothers? I feel we can move towards that forgiving, accommodating, wider acceptance in an increasing diversity of scenarios.
. . . well that is my plan . . .
And you answer'd: ________________________________________________________ ?
Respectfully,
When you argue with someone like my brother all day over the same issue, you tend to drop the "respectfully"....
If you're arguing with somebody all day over the same issue, then you're just wasting time and energy, and I would say violating Buddhist concepts.
Hyperbole, my Friend!
As if one's opinions could ever be helpful if not informed by those of others, especially the wise who have gone before!
He's a pain in the neck -me too- so I promise you no Buddhist concept goes violated
@federica, delete this if you like. I was writing it on the thread you just closed and was unable to post it there. But it does bear on the topic of this thread, which is not to expect a lot from other Buddhists simply because they are Buddhists. One reason in favor of deleting this post is that I am not a Buddhist, i.e, have not taken the three refuges —just the first. I have abbreviated what I had prepared, though.
I don't know. I guess that would be a matter of opinion. I mean, it depends on what you mean by cult. If you mean "occult," (meaning hidden, paranormal, secretive and mysterious) then I think most people would find that offensive, the case not being so.
However, if just the word "cult" is meant, it depends on your point of view. I was raised as a Catholic Christian and was nurtured in what we sometimes fondly called "the cult of Jesus and Mary." The word "cult" can also have neutral descriptive properties that merely describe the dynamics of either an organization or an group of people.
Respectfully, I can appreciate how easily we can all be offended from time to time, but ofttimes I think we see things in other people's positions that aren't even there —or if they are in some measure they might not even be aware. And then we sometimes rather enlarge the seeds they have into full-grown fruits. It might just be best, though, not to stir the bottom of the pond and make the waters all muddy —if you desire a clearer view. But that's so counter-intuitive and not the way we human beings work...
Much of Buddhist thought is counter-intuitive. It depends on what you have been conditioned to see as reality.
Must be so, because my experience has been that most Buddhist thought is so "obvious" that it deserves a faceslap, like "oh, of course!". We're the ones who are conditioned counter-intuitively... Buddhism is quite intuitive.