This is the big stumbling block for me
zenguitar
Bad BuddhistNew England Veteran
Hi Sangha, this is one of the things that I could never "get" in Christianity either, namely, this idea that one should love and forgive everyone, including one's enemies.
In Buddhism, this attitude is probably best expressed by the exercise in which you radiate metta (loving-kindness) in progressively wider circles, eventually to include all sentient beings in your imaginary net of love and forgiveness.
All of this sounds great in principle. But all beings means all beings, including people who have performed the most unspeakably heinous crimes. But who here can honestly say they really "love" such people, or even feel empathy for them? I'm talking about, for instance, the worst convicts who are serving whole-life tariffs (life imprisonment), some only because the death penalty was abolished before they committed their crimes.
I know I can't. And that's one thing that makes me want to throw in the towel on Buddhism. The bar is too high, the standard too unrealistic, for me at least. And if the mountain is insurmountable, I feel maybe I should try a more manageable peak.
At least then I could use my meditation time to enjoy myself instead of hurting my knees and nodding off to sleep while pretending to be on the path to enlightenment.
Sorry if this is a real downer, I'm hoping someone here can point out the error in my thinking, as usual. 
Comments
You don';t actually HAVE to 'Love' all of them, per se.
What you need to understand is this:
All of them, at one point, were babies.
All of them, at one point, were held in loving arms and nurtured and gazed upon with affection and kindness.
All of them, at one point, were small children, developing, growing and learning.
Now: At some point, something happened.
We all process things differently.
Even two people, going through the same experience, will process it differently.
Which is why some people can view a bereavement philosophically, and why others fall into depression.
The people you mention may deserve punishment, and the Law punishes them.
But who are you to judge that they don't deserve compassion, assistance, support, loving kindness and a helping hand?
Those who are designated as psychotic, mentally unstable, insane or purely mad, cannot, by that very definition, help themselves. So however much you feel you cannot reach out to them, what they have done, is not entirely under their control.
Are you shunning them because of their helplessness?
Others of sound mind, may be reachable.
Why discriminate?
By reaching out, you find the ones willing to change.
Those who won't, deserve our compassion for making the wrong/misguided choices...
Now, luckily, you don't have to meet them all. You don't even need to meet some of them.
Or any of them at all.
But let's say you're walking along a road, and you see a fallen man, bleeding from a head-wound, in need of help.
You go to him, minister whatever help you can, call an ambulance, and stay with him while you await medical aid.
You subsequently discover he is an escaped convicted rapist.
If you'd known that before, would you have left him by the wayside, to bleed to death?
Now you do know it, does your kind and Compassionate action cause you regret?
Mother Theresa was lauded for having helped over 70,000 people in her lifetime.
She denied this.
She said she only ever helped one person.
One person.
At a time.
Just one.
Then, just one.
Then, just one.
Do you suppose every single one of those people was a clean-living, honourable, upright citizen?
But she helped them all.
Just one at a time.
"Love" people.
One at a time.
But don't attach conditions.
That places your thumbs on the scales, and at a disadvantage to you....
This is the big stumbling block for me ....In a nutshell @zenguitar, tis the attachment to the sense of "SELF"....Perhaps you should focus your practice more on "Anatta" ...
@zenguitar -- Stop importing the word "should." Buddhism, like life, is not about something else. It's about what is. The moment anyone applies the word "should," the whole thing goes to hell in a holy hand basket.
Naturally, in your good practice, you will have to apply some determination. But this is not so much a means of making things happen as to seeing what happens. Just keep up your good, constant practice with determination. Leave the 'goodness' and 'virtue' to others. 'Goodness' and 'virtue' dwell in the realm of something else.
Just see what happens. Buddhist, Christian, no different: Just see what happens.
Best wishes.
The first stage of metta bhavana practice. Look it up.
Hey @zenguitar - Read the book I've been yammering about, it could help:
"Old Path White Clouds" by Hanh - I finished it last night. ;-)
ps - I have the same problem
You want them to be well so that they can learn not to harm others.
I think you have wrong idea of Buddhism. Your path with the joy instead of the hurt knees sounds good to me.
Well, love and forgiveness come more from Christianity. In Buddhism it's more about seeing and understanding their samsaric nature, understanding that they've gone wrong in their vision of the world and what's important. For example, they're trapped by their ego, so that drives them to lie, steal or kill. Or they were severely traumatized and/or abused as children, so they became lost and disoriented as to their value system.
So once you can see this side of them, your attitude softens, and you can view them more as innocent children gone astray who need love just like everyone else, instead of viewing them as monsters that should be exterminated.
Everyone, pretty much, is born a bright little child who views the world with wonder, and is dependent on caregivers for love and support. Sadly, not everyone gets their basic needs met. Some of those bright, innocent little spirits get their psyches broken through no fault of their own, and never find the path to healing.
This doesn't mean you let a hardened criminal off scott-free. But how different would our criminal-justice system be if society viewed them as people needing an ICU for the spirit?
I can.
Yes. Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin ......
Then why don't you?
If you see it as so impossible to have the compassion you think your "should", maybe it would be better for you if you did just throw in the towel.
Feel free ....
Well, lord knows we should really enjoy our cushion time.
It's not a downer. It's a problem for you. We all appreciate that. You need to lighten up and be gentle with yourself. Find compassion for you, then compassion for others will follow.
That or just quit.
It's up to you.
P.S. OP, you don't have to hurt your knees to meditate. You can meditate in a chair with a straight back. You can even meditate lying down, but if you're prone to dozing off, that wouldn't be recommended.
Perhaps I should emphasise It's not about what you try to impose onyourself by your self. First you should establish right view. But before that go back to the 4NT, and when you feel you've really understood them, not just intellectually, but with that yes I really get how the 4NT's help establish the 8FP and then you might have the view that all those other people are as ignorant as you were! Yet you may have now developed compassion for yourself in such a way that you recognise how your ignorance caused you to act in certain ways and their ignorance has made them act in the way they did.
How far out from the centre of the wheel have you gone before today, how near to the centre are you now.
Just something to think about - don't get hung up on these words.
The wisdom is always there! So is the compassion. Don't try to make it happen, you'll stress on the thoughts that arise, and then you feel deflated, let down, blown out, and then... you come back to the 4NT's...
Coincidentally, HHDL's post on Facebook today:
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I thought it apt...
For me that came much later in the game. I had to 'understand' other things before I could understand what little I do about anatta.
They always say we need to understand ourSELVES before we can understand others. Understanding yourSELF builds a foundation or framework to build further upon. An inadequate foundation (the proverbial house built on sand) builds nothing but a pile of sticks.
Your dilemma over this is mine too @Zenguitar, and probably everyone else's. Here's what I've concluded, provisionally (cuz I'll never be done); to the extent I understand my own worst impulses with compassion, that's the extent I can apply that compassion to others.
I have to be 'OK' with the limits of my ability to extend forgiveness, being an imperfect specimen myself.
You are aware of how short you fall when it comes to forgiveness. But you don't seem to realize that doesn't mean you have 'failed'. We humans cannot be perfect, and don't need to be in order to reap the promises of whatever religion. You aren't inadequate because you can't achieve that perfection. No one can. We only approach it, even the best of us. That's my take anyway.
@Shoshin: the reason I said what I did about anatta is that I was the type to not have the remotest 'skillful' insight into what my own provisional self even WAS. Once that insight grew to a certain point, anatta started making sense in real time (as opposed to some Buddhist doctrine).
I realized I was 'doing' anatta at work. As a nurse, we get a lot of flak from each other, patients and their families. The person spitting on me in rage wouldn't upset me all that much because what they were raging about had nothing to do with 'me'. It was whatever issue they had, aimed at me but I didn't have to personalize it. That was the beginning of me understanding how little I had to personalize anything. Personalizing stuff isn't necessary. It may be aimed at me but I am not forced to take the blow. Just . . . move to the side
. Watch it go past.
But I couldn't begin to do that until I had a modicum of insight into the mechanism of my 'self'.
I'm curious about the meditation. A meditation isn't 'good' or 'bad' based on what thoughts we have. There can be discomfort. So I say that, but it is contradictory in that meditation should help nourish us. I like Thich Nhat Hanh's approach to meditation where you learn to use mindfulness to touch that nourishment.
Okay, firstly 'love' in Buddhism simply means to want the other person to be happy. It shouldn't be confused with what we typically understand the word to mean (which is attachment).
And I think Sam Harris gives a great explanation (which is very Buddhist) of a route to compassion for people who have done terrible things:
Go from minute 40; he really explains it brilliantly:
OP, you may be having trouble because you're trying to bite off more than you can chew. These practices need to be taken gradually, step by step. And first of all, you don't need to stare at a wall. You can close your eyes, which makes it easier to focus on your inner process.
As a first step, visualize a loved one. Feel the warm, fuzzy feelings that come up when you think of that person. Focus on that love, and really nurture it. Let it grow, and fill up your heart. Dwell in it. Take your time. You can imagine your heart chakra opening, and the love spreading beyond your heart, beyond your body, encompassing both you and your loved one. Feel it, and notice the glow it produces. Do this every day for a week, either with the same person, or visualizing different people you're close to.
Then move on to your friends. Visualize a good friend. Remember how good they make you feel when you're confiding in them, or sharing an activity together, or when they make you laugh. Focus on that feeling, and let it grow inside you. Dwell in it. Turn it into the same feeling of love you felt in your previous meditations. Enjoy that wonderful feeling of love for your friend. Feel the love swelling, and extending beyond your heart, beyond your body, until you're both enveloped in a glowing cloud of love. Do this every day for a week.
Then move on to people you feel indifferent about. You don't like them particularly, but you don't dislike them, either. Pick one to meditate on. As you focus your attention on him or her, think about how s/he's someone just like you, who wants the same things in life that you do: love, meaningful work, beauty, happiness, an opportunity to grow and learn. Reach out your hand in friendship to this person, and feel that friendship. Notice the warm feelings that begin to arise. Focus on that. Nurture it, let it grow, until it fills your heart and your body. Dwell in that. Notice how it begins to balloon beyond your body to encompass yourself and the other person in a golden glow. Sit with that. Repeat daily for a week, visualizing a different person each time.
Then move on to someone you dislike. Imagine that underneath whatever you don't like about them, they're someone just like you; they need love, happiness, family, friendship, and an opportunity to learn, grow, and contribute positively to the world. Continue, as above. Repeat every day, visualizing a different person you dislike.
Then move on to people you resent or hate.
And when you're ready, do the meditation visualizing those criminals you talked about.
Step by step. Instead of one meditation where the circle gets larger and larger, break that down into pieces, where you focus on one part of the circle each week, moving from the innermost circle of loved ones, gradually outward.
Be sure to breathe deeply as you begin your meditation and these visualizations. Slow down, and follow the breath, eyes closed. Experience the quietude. Check around, inwardly, your different body parts, to see that they're relaxed. Breathe. Then start the visualization.
See if that helps. These things take time to build. if you don't expect instant results, you won't get frustrated or disappointed. Take as long as you need to develop each stage.
I hope this helps.
At least then I could use my meditation time to enjoy myself instead of hurting my knees and nodding off to sleep while pretending to be on the path to enlightenment.
The bar might be too high for the level of understanding you have now.
I agree that you should try a more manageable peak.
You can't run before you can walk.
No one said you had to. Baby steps.
And though one of the side effects of meditation is a certain degree of bliss, the aim of meditation is not to "enjoy yourself."
Meditation is precisely the tool that will help you transform your ingrained mental habit patterns in order to advance towards your personal goal.
You call it enlightenment, I call it cessation of unsatisfactoriness.
Please go over the 4NT and the N8P again and again.
And you would benefit greatly of Lojong and Lamrim meditation.
They are perfect baby steps.
You can work with one Lojong slogan and a Lamrim meditation each day.
They are analytical meditation, which is excellent to get more confident on the theory.
Here are some links for Lojong. Please read the first one carefully because it is a good introduction:
http://alanwallace.org/BDfall2005.pdf
http://www.tricycle.com/web-exclusive/59-lojong-slogans?offer=dharma
http://elibrary.ibc.ac.th/files/private/Wallace, B. Alan - Buddhism with an Attitude, the Tibetan Seven-Point Mind-Training(lo jong)(2001)(lamaism).pdf
Here are some excellent links for Lamrim:
http://thubtenchodron.org/2001/01/gradual-path-instructions/
http://thubtenchodron.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/MeditationOutline.pdf
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/lam_rim_outline.pdf
@zenquitar
You have picked a pretty strange line in the sand to decide what is insurmountable and what is not.
If I wrote your opening post, you'd be asking me if I was really threatening to take my toys out of the sand box and go home?
Reality check!
You either practice towards unlearning the conditioned behavioral traits that keeps you stoking the fires of suffering's cause...or you don't. That's it!
Suffer more or suffer less.. but don't fool yourself that anyone drew that line in the sand but you.
Seems like a plan.
Eventually we might love our practice, we may find we want to extend any good vibe/enjoyment to our internal angst, wishing well to the good and bad bits of our being, maybe practice some metta based visualisations to help, as suggested . . .
Compassion/love/good feeling to ourself and our emotional environment can be found and increased with skilfull means.
Why would we wish to gradually do this? It is enjoyable.
As for pretending . . . realise that sometimes the first step on the path is to know we have been pretending to be be on it. That was my experience.
I like what Mattieu Ricard has to say about this, that having compassion for the worst people doesn't mean we buy them tickets to Jamaica and tell them to have a good time. It means we wish for them to be able to see the harm they do to others and themselves and that they take steps to becoming better people.
Also, Buddhism is a gradual path we aren't expected to start at the finish line. There are benefits for those of us still below the tree line.
Ask yourself what forgiving a convicted child molester would LOOK LIKE, in real time.
Ideas or doctrines like this don't stand alone, they are accomplished in real time, OVER time. It is an action to forgive. There's no action to take when you read it in the paper.
A lot of the commonly known Buddhist doctrines are misunderstood this way (ask me how I know). "not self" and anatta are are my personal favorites. It's like hating yourself for being unable to do a triple flip twist like the Olympic divers. It's like throwing out Buddhism because you meditated for a week and still can't levitate.
@zenguitar,
Sensei Sevan Ross,
"Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual journey. This act is real spiritual practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place."
Thank you everyone. This is a lot to digest, and it will take time. A number of you mentioned abandoning "should" and instead just try to see things as they are. This sounds like good sound advice, even though I am still not 100% convinced that Buddhism is devoid of "shoulds".
It's not Buddhism having all those 'shoulds'. They are coming from within you. They only seem to be coming from Buddhism because they are yet unquestioned
I agree with Hamasaka, here.
Repeatedly, during my initial periods of study, thought, discernment, cogitation, evaluation, I found myself asking, "Yeah, but.... hang on.... is it REALLY so....?"
Sadly, even leaving stuff aside for a while, and coming back to it eventually, I found that, yes, actually, it was.
The doubts, shoulds and should-nots were all mentally-manufactured machinations.
It's called 'Resistance'.
Quite common, quite normal. If you keep at it, you'll find it's also quite temporary.
We naturally and automatically 'insert' various personal attitudes and unquestioned beliefs into everything we perceive -- so that what we are actually seeing is ALTERED or skewed by our own 'stuff'.
If Buddhism appears to be chock full o' shoulds (this is just an example), but your online sangha insists over and over again that it doesn't . . . what's a person to do? Check your own perceptions, and wonder if this sangha is nuts.
"Shoulds" are a fascinating way to discover yourself. There literally aren't any, except the ones you cherish. And for good reason, most of them (like murder). Some people 'should' on themselves to such a degree they struggle with simple life tasks.
I think sometimes I feel frustrated because I have a concept of how I should feel. It's very problematic because even if for one second I let go and feel relief from the heaviness of the concept right then my mind says 'oh I figured out how to feel good' which re-establishes the concept that experience has to be a certain way such as feeling good. The problem is we can't get rid of the wrong concept by bashing it because that is like bashing our self and all that accomplishes is getting even more stuck.
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I can totally understand this...For the first week or two when I first practiced mindfulness and meditation, it seemed consistent: more relaxed and clearer mind and feelings; I slowly add a couple more short sessions almost every day now, and I've run into my mind returning to a jumping-bean mode 2-3 nights ago, then I remembered my dreams for the past two nights, which is unusual but I don't mind it, I've been wanting to do that, but I've had a very long history of insomnia as it is. And this morning, I went out to breakfast, shopped a wee bit, came home and couldn't keep my eyes open/ very drowsy but it wore off.
I'm wondering if anybody here has ever kept a log, whether for themselves or here on the forum. It might be interesting to do that.
^^^ well said @Jeffrey
We hanker after: (my Buddhist Bucket list follows)
Then we learn to be in and of the moment:
'It is what it is'
and so are we . . .
. . . and now back to the agitation?
Yes, but...
Yes, but...
Yes, but...
Yes, but...
Yes, but...
Yes, but...
Yes, but...
Yes, but...
Keep after it. Don't let go for a minute!
Eventually, you will wear yourself out and find the opportunity to get to work.
The problem is that shamata (calm) is conditioned. You can have it or not have it. It is more at one time and less at another. Some people have more and some people less. I have discomfort in sitting and my life also. Even if you get calm it is a lot of work to keep up.
Buddha nature is what we all have and it is just what we are. It is always there but gets covered. Like a mirror could show a horrible event but the mirror itself is not stained. When Buddha nature shines true at times we think it is like other conditioned things because our glimpse was in a time frame we reason. But the sun is always there. I have no idea what it is but I have heard that is because since it is unconditioned it can only be pointed to in rational thought. Whenever I think of Buddhanature I am reassured because I have refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.
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Hey Jeffrey - we've talked about 'sitting' meditation and it doesn't have to be 'sitting' per se, if that's one of the things you're getting at. For me, once I saw just how incredibly helpful mindfulness practice is - because I have lived my life in a state of non-calm (when I'm not psychologically running) for decades - so when I see this bringing measurable calm into my life, I am on it.
Nice phraseology @Jeffrey said "Like a mirror could show a horrible event but the mirror itself is not stained." To me, beautiful, in fact.
Here is the great gift of the wisdom of emptiness in the heart sutra (it's nice and short and you can sing along with Deva premal after you've read it, and when you've got it - what was that block that made you stumble! Too much MIndcraft® ...\lol/...
http://www.sanghalou.org/oldsitebackup/heart_suttra.htm
We can't plant rose seeds and demand to see a bush the following day.
Life is basically difficult as it is.
Why would we demand to have the equation solved for us, whenever possible, as soon as possible?
It's the unrealistic expectation that sets us up for frustration.
@Dakini really said it all for me, but since you ask for "errors in your thinking" to be pointed out, @zenguitar, it seems to me that you have answered your question in your own post:
[emphasis added]
If you haven't progressed far enough to include all sentient beings, what's the problem? You have a lifetime to progress in! It's not a race or a competition. Every peak takes time to get to. No mountain is unsurmountable given enough time and practice and taking advantage of the helping hands held out along the way. And, if you don't manage all sentient beings this time round, at least you've progressed! Isn't that better than just deciding to hate everyone or whatever else you propose?
Baby steps are fine in my world!
Us and them is the worst disease... So subtle it creeps.
As condescending as that may sound, I also stumble on it from time to time.
What can we do but get up, smile and remember? The alternative adds to our collective darkness.
Even if you give up Buddhism, I implore you to keep trying to see the merit as well as the logic behind compassion.
Yes, @how, it may seem like a strange example. But I picked it for a very good reason. Follow my idiosyncratic reasoning here, if you will:
-A Buddha or bodhisattva feels love or at least compassion for all sentient beings, including the worst evildoers.
-I cannot feel love or compassion for those worst individuals, and probably I never will.
-Therefore I cannot be a Buddha or bodhisattva.
-Since becoming a Buddha or bodhisattva is the whole goal of (Mahayana) Buddhism, maybe I shouldn't embark on this futile path at all.
However, reading over my original post now, I admit that my "throw in the towel" line does sound a little childish and petulant. It's like I'm expecting Buddha to do something for me, and if I don't get it, I won't play his dharma game anymore!
Wrong. The goal of Buddhism is to reduce suffering for yourself and increase the joy. That's the main goal for beginners. The secondary goal is to reduce suffering for others. The reason becoming a bodhisattva is stated as a goal is that bodhisattvas are much more skillful at ending suffering for others, due to their attainments and realization. But their goal is the same as any practitioner's: ending suffering.
Again, OP, you've conceptualized the dharma game as too big a task, biting off more than you can chew. All it is, is a path out of suffering. For yourself and others. Nothing more, nothing less.
Joy. Keep your eyes on the prize!
Truly.
Do you really want to be the guy who never gets it? Always needing a leg up?
Take responsibility for what you do know and stop worrying about what you don't.
Have confidence in your ability to continue to grow in understanding.
No. But how can a person learn without asking questions?
Study, contemplation, meditation.
Good question!
I say this about myself and everyone: Sometimes, our questions are more like spinning our wheels n whining.....Until we realize that most of our sincere questions are ones we need to be asking ourselves.
@zenguitar
Everything is fluidic.
The ego is just a dream supporting the karmic rejection of that truth.
A Buddhist meditation practice is the softening and dissolving of that rejection.
It slowly loosens the ego directed responses to phenomena leaving less self around to obstruct the underling selflessness.
The plethora of different descriptions of this path towards selflessness
(etc. unconditional love) mostly comes from teachers exhorting their students to keep moving on beyond each new manifestation of change that they experience.
There is little point to predicting what limits to spiritual changes might eventually be in store for you when that you is mostly a dream to be awoken from.
Focus instead on the present moment of practice, rather than upon some future stage play wrought by the maker of dreams.
I feel @robot gave a good answer. Part of the way we develop answers is by posing the question AND trying to fathom potential answers.
No matter how inane, it is worth providing an answer with a question. In a sense independence from a fruit machine guru or our insatiable mind gluttony, comes about when we learn how to use our own fruit machine. A good guru or sangha is not attempting attachment but non attachment on many levels . . .
Exactly. That's what this forum is for. This is its raison d'etre. Go for it.
...But ask YOURSELF first -
Is this a question I REALLY need an answer, to?
Do I actually suspect I already know the answer?
Could I actually, with study, meditation and contemplation, find an answer, myself...?
It's difficult, yes, but I think the priest at my local parish was on the right track when he said that to hate something or someone is to bring that hate and darkness into your own heart. The same with things like anger, jealousy, and resentment. To hate is to pollute our own hearts and minds; to love is to purify them. Much like how the Buddha said:
ruled by the heart,
made of the heart.
If you speak or act
with a corrupted heart,
then suffering follows you —
as the wheel of the cart,
the track of the ox
that pulls it.
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ruled by the heart,
made of the heart.
If you speak or act
with a calm, bright heart,
then happiness follows you,
like a shadow
that never leaves.
That doesn't mean you necessarily have to like them or accept the things they do/say; but you don't have wish them ill-will or suffering, either.
Who can feel empathy for them? I would say anyone who does not engage in "inappropriate attention".
Anyone who does not harbor such thoughts, stills hate and when hate is stilled, love and empathy is easy.
It just takes practice to not harbor such thoughts. It just takes practice to not engage in "inappropriate attention". It's simply a matter of practicing. If and when it's difficult, all that means is one needs more practice. The more you practice it, the more skilled you become at it. A mountain climber does not reach the top of Mt Everest without practicing!