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@vinlyn I Googled it, and my first thought was "Eh, not too different from the depictions of Hell I encountered during my Catholic upbringing." . I'm curious as to what, if any, reason there is for such graphic depictions of the hell realms specifically within Thai Buddhism?
0
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@Rowan1980 said:
I'm curious as to what, if any, reason there is for such graphic depictions of the hell realms specifically within Thai Buddhism?
I'm guessing social control is the reason, much like the Judeo-Christian hell.
It's hard for me to imagine any other intent behind that kind of fear mongering, but maybe someone else has better ideas. Still, it's pretty hard core to do all that physical work to make Hell nice n fresh, rather than preach fire and brimstone from a pulpit. Hell(s) seem antithetical to my personal sense of Buddha's message, but Hell must be a collective archetype or fear so it will show up in most if not all religions (in some way).
@Hamsaka - Which makes sense. It's why I have a great deal of difficulty with the concept of Hell realms per se. My Sociology background kicks in and says, "Now, why would they (of any religion) be going on about blissful and hellish realms?"
Probably antithetical to the Gelug Tibetan Buddhist path that I follow, but I can't help but see that as creating an impetus to practice and maintain some level of social control. I am down with hellish mentalities, but that's about it.
That was just bizarre. My first thought was that much of it wasn't any more than a somewhat overblown even almost comical (as in somewhat like adult comics/cartoons) representation of what tv shows every day in the US. So perhaps TV really is hell...
@Hamsaka said:
I wonder what tools of torture would be favored by a Buddhist Inquisition?\
I don't know, being poked by a comfy cushion?
Maybe someone can try writing a sketch on this subject in the style of Monty Python.
Novice: "I'd like to be a bodhsattva, please."
Master: "Are you willing to give up garlic? Onions? Have you ever taught a non-Mahayana doctrine? Have you ever even thought about transgressing the 43rd secondary precept?"
Novice: "I don't know! I didn't expect a kind of Buddhist inquisition!"
[Jarring chord]
[Three evil-looking bald monks leap into the room.]
First monk: "Nobody expects the Buddhist Inquisition! Our two poisons are greed, hatred, and delusion. Our three poisons are... never mind, I'll come in again!"
etc
3
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I would guess that 'hell' pre-dates organized religion and probably was believed in back in tribal days. The medicine man wasn't trying to control them he/she was trying to help them understand their psyche and what they need to do to overcome their base nature. The thought occurred to me of Freud's id, ego, and superego. The id is the totally basic urge part of a person. Think rape and pillage. I guess it could be a serpent or whatever is very primal and destructive. The super-ego has ideals and higher values than primal. That could be represented by a lady. And then the ego is the realistic part that in the present moderates the two. That could be a lion and it has the power to fight off the id. The super-ego has to train it though. These are symbolic rather than neural. So I think hell existed as a belief a long time ago even in tribal days and it was a morality tale for the psyche to understand that their are higher values than primal and so forth.
So now play the 'Lion Tamer' Monty Python sketch haha
The point of a Mahayana vow (in my simplistic view) is that, well, you might be missing the point if you really believe you can't achieve it, its a test of who you are, not what you should try to be... So lets discuss who are you...
Just another silly thought - carry on without me (oh, how stoopid of me - you can't, unless we both let go together)!
1
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@Jeffrey said:
I would guess that 'hell' pre-dates organized religion and probably was believed in back in tribal days. The medicine man wasn't trying to control them he/she was trying to help them understand their psyche and what they need to do to overcome their base nature.
Sure, this example is of a very ethical and wise shaman, but by history, a majority of our 'leaders' are sucked in by the idea of power. Social control in a tribe is very tight even compared to the ropes that bind us in this more global Western civilization.
@Zenguitar, your sketch made me bust out laughing Monty Python/British humor is so educational, it gets in to tight places that need loosening up
@Hamsaka said:
Zenguitar, your sketch made me bust out laughing Monty Python/British humor is so educational, it gets in to tight places that need loosening up
Thanks, I think someone else could do it better though. I'm just a Yank.
@federica A friend of mine asked our teacher today (she lives in the same town as our teacher and goes weekly to sangha discussion group) my question. It was recorded so will be youtube in a few days so I can see exactly what she asked and his exact response. But basically he said he does not believe in realms being literal. That they are states of mind. So that in regards to bodhisattva vows, there is no going to hell for breaking them, but you find yourself in a hellish state of mind as a natural consequence of poor actions. He makes a conscious choice to focus on helping people to develop and maintain love, compassion, joy and equanimity. He also mentioned that our experiences that are hellish help us to exhaust our bad karma, which can help encourage us to see those things as a gift, as difficult as they can be. Of course, he made sure to mention that people should worry about their own karma and hellish experiences, and not point them out to others, as it's mostly always unskillful to go to someone who is suffering and tell them their suffering is a good thing.
We don't focus a lot on sutra study as a group. My teacher is quite well studied, but he finds more value in helping people cultivate qualities that can help themselves, and others, in every day life rather than focus on memorizing sutras and spending hours attempting to decipher them. So I think he is reluctant to give an exact opinion on specific sutras because he prefers we focus on other things. We do cover some major sutras on occasion, but usually only as they relate to developing those qualities. I re-watched the videos from our bodhisattva vow retreat and ceremony and the Brahama net sutra was not mentioned a single time, nor did we cover the major or minor bad actions because committing bad acts, and dealing with the fall out of them is all part of the overall cultivation we work on all the time.
Once I can watch the video, I will let you know. That is just a paraphrasing my friend gave me. I did email him, but sometimes it takes a while for him to respond to email, lol. I posed the question to our sangha group so my friend was nice enough to bring it to him in person.
Of course, he made sure to mention that people should worry about their own karma and hellish experiences, and not point them out to others, as it's mostly always unskillful to go to someone who is suffering and tell them their suffering is a good thing.
I think that is important to not impose this on others and keep it your own practice
In a slightly related topic, it was interesting how President Obama's rather honest and blunt assessment of religion and oppression/violence at the prayer breakfast last week once again stirred up the racists on the Tea Party side of the spectrum.
I noticed that too, @vinlyn. Oh noes. The man not only refuses to blame all of Islam for ISIS, but he called out Christianity for some of their horrific crimes in the names of Christ. HOW DARE HE.
2
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@zenguitar said:
Thanks, I think someone else could do it better though. I'm just a Yank.
You did pretty good for a Yank, I thought "Monty Python" right off the bat. Must be your British ancestors speaking up, hey?
1
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
edited February 2015
@vinlyn said:
In a slightly related topic, it was interesting how President Obama's rather honest and blunt assessment of religion and oppression/violence at the prayer breakfast last week once again stirred up the racists on the Tea Party side of the spectrum.
I shouldn't feel dismay that this is happening (it's happening all over my Facebook feed, thanks to a number of my dear friends/acquaintances having that particular politico-religious charge).
But I do. Doesn't ANYONE THINK???? (ow, I hurt my pinky finger pounding out those question marks)
Like I said, the Buddha was an ancestor of Lawrence of Arabia, sent undercover by the British Foreign Office to make the Indians more peaceful and easy to colonise later on.
2
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@karasti , thank you for your input.
I pretty much conclude matters the same way; as I mentioned, the Realms are very much taken by many scholars to be indicative of States of MIND, rather than physical locations, so it follows, quite logically, that this opinion would fit with these ideas too....
I guess there's more than one truth to "home is where the heart is"...
Thanks for doing that, I look forward to the youtube video...
@Hamsaka said:
You did pretty good for a Yank, I thought "Monty Python" right off the bat. Must be your British ancestors speaking up, hey?
Well, I'm a "Yank" whose ancestors actually hail from the remnants of another great Empire--the Roman one. But I love Monty Python, also Fry and Laurie.
1
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
I read "The Life of Brian" when I was in middle school, and felt like I discovered a completely new way to laugh. None of my friends or family laughed when I cornered them and forced them to listen to me quote the book (lol), and the few who took the time to say "I don't get it" just gave my young, bloated ego even more evidence I was surrounded by trolls
My roots are from a warrior clan on the west coast of Ireland, the Coyles of Mayo. Dodgy dealings with the Spanish a few centuries back I gather, they reckon I have some Spanish blood too.
I've never been to Spain so I just base my impressions on Manuel from Fawlty Towers.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Humour in the UK is practically the alternative Church of England. American humour often surpasses the Anglicans with its parody religions. Irish humour is legendary. Jewish humour goes back to a nice Jewish boy who couldn't make it as a doctor and left the family carpentry business . . .
The Muslims have Nasrudin. Buddhists have Zen mistresses. We used to have court jesters. In Korea they have a man who eats cheese. Awesome.
It is wonderful.
and now a message from a Boddhisatva:
Since everything is but an apparition, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst out in laughter Longchenpa
@Hamsaka said:
Yes, the script is in book form. I liked it better than the movie because I couldn't understand the British accent
Okay, got it. Yeah, not only the accent, but they get the words wrong too. They say "tin" when they mean can, "petrol" when they mean gas, and "Prime Minister" when they mean "President". Sheesh!
1
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@SpinyNorman said:
Oh yus, we speak the Queen's bleedin' English proper like.
And you make this sentence sound a lot like a five syllable WORD when ya get goin' like (LOL). I've since gotten much better at hearing a southern British accent over time, or is it western . . . sounds like lots of consonants are dropped and the mouth is moving over the vowels only but I can understand it. Forget the Scots, though, I need subtitles and they're my direct ancestors. The Irish brogue too is easier to 'hear' and understand than British accents from the south and west.
0
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@zenguitar said:
Okay, got it. Yeah, not only the accent, but they get the words wrong too. They say "tin" when they mean can, "petrol" when they mean gas, and "Prime Minister" when they mean "President". Sheesh!
And they say 'bin' when they mean 'garbage pail'. I keep imagining an old fashioned flour bin, the kind in 19th century kitchens. And the word 'mate' for friend? Really? I'm stayin' away! Thanks but erm, no thanks!
There was a time in what I laughingly call 'my spiritual awakening', when everything we planet of apes did was funny.
However it is not tactful, expedient or socially viable to laugh at anyone who is not ourself.
Here are British comics making fun of what we used to laugh at, which was well . . . see for yourself . . . humour within humour . . . it is quite possible it is incomprehensible as humour to some who have different cultural nuances and funny bones . . .
@vinlyn said:
In a slightly related topic, it was interesting how President Obama's rather honest and blunt assessment of religion and oppression/violence at the prayer breakfast last week once again stirred up the racists on the Tea Party side of the spectrum.
I belong to the Mel Brooks response to racism [lobster breaks into a chorus of 'Spring time for Hitler and Germany']
@Rowan1980 said:
vinlyn I Googled it, and my first thought was "Eh, not too different from the depictions of Hell I encountered during my Catholic upbringing." . I'm curious as to what, if any, reason there is for such graphic depictions of the hell realms specifically within Thai Buddhism?
-Similar to those Catholic depictions of Hell, I suppose these depictions could arise out of a desire to motivate (potential irony noted)...
Comments
In Theravada the belief is that to become a bodhisattva you have to have the blessing to do so by a Buddha.
To circumvent the obvious paradox I guess it is enough to have the blessing of a Pratchecka Buddha or maybe even a Sravaka Buddha.
I donno. Not going that way.
I'm guessing social control is the reason, much like the Judeo-Christian hell.
It's hard for me to imagine any other intent behind that kind of fear mongering, but maybe someone else has better ideas. Still, it's pretty hard core to do all that physical work to make Hell nice n fresh, rather than preach fire and brimstone from a pulpit. Hell(s) seem antithetical to my personal sense of Buddha's message, but Hell must be a collective archetype or fear so it will show up in most if not all religions (in some way).
Probably antithetical to the Gelug Tibetan Buddhist path that I follow, but I can't help but see that as creating an impetus to practice and maintain some level of social control. I am down with hellish mentalities, but that's about it.
That was just bizarre. My first thought was that much of it wasn't any more than a somewhat overblown even almost comical (as in somewhat like adult comics/cartoons) representation of what tv shows every day in the US. So perhaps TV really is hell...
I don't know, being poked by a comfy cushion?
Maybe someone can try writing a sketch on this subject in the style of Monty Python.
Novice: "I'd like to be a bodhsattva, please."
Master: "Are you willing to give up garlic? Onions? Have you ever taught a non-Mahayana doctrine? Have you ever even thought about transgressing the 43rd secondary precept?"
Novice: "I don't know! I didn't expect a kind of Buddhist inquisition!"
[Jarring chord]
[Three evil-looking bald monks leap into the room.]
First monk: "Nobody expects the Buddhist Inquisition! Our two poisons are greed, hatred, and delusion. Our three poisons are... never mind, I'll come in again!"
etc
Er.... didn't you just write the sketch....?
"Our chief weapons are, forgetful mindfulness, sleepy meditation, obscure philosophy and a fanatical devotion to the Dalai Lama..."
That's just a sketch of the sketch.
Ah. A skit-sketch.... gotcha.
I like the idea though.... very original.
I would guess that 'hell' pre-dates organized religion and probably was believed in back in tribal days. The medicine man wasn't trying to control them he/she was trying to help them understand their psyche and what they need to do to overcome their base nature. The thought occurred to me of Freud's id, ego, and superego. The id is the totally basic urge part of a person. Think rape and pillage. I guess it could be a serpent or whatever is very primal and destructive. The super-ego has ideals and higher values than primal. That could be represented by a lady. And then the ego is the realistic part that in the present moderates the two. That could be a lion and it has the power to fight off the id. The super-ego has to train it though. These are symbolic rather than neural. So I think hell existed as a belief a long time ago even in tribal days and it was a morality tale for the psyche to understand that their are higher values than primal and so forth.
So now play the 'Lion Tamer' Monty Python sketch haha
The point of a Mahayana vow (in my simplistic view) is that, well, you might be missing the point if you really believe you can't achieve it, its a test of who you are, not what you should try to be... So lets discuss who are you...
Just another silly thought - carry on without me (oh, how stoopid of me - you can't, unless we both let go together)!
Sure, this example is of a very ethical and wise shaman, but by history, a majority of our 'leaders' are sucked in by the idea of power. Social control in a tribe is very tight even compared to the ropes that bind us in this more global Western civilization.
@Zenguitar, your sketch made me bust out laughing
Monty Python/British humor is so educational, it gets in to tight places that need loosening up 
Thanks, I think someone else could do it better though. I'm just a Yank.
Nobody expects the Buddhist Inquisition!
Well not until the interrogation by the good mind bad mind in the Bardo Realms
@federica A friend of mine asked our teacher today (she lives in the same town as our teacher and goes weekly to sangha discussion group) my question. It was recorded so will be youtube in a few days so I can see exactly what she asked and his exact response. But basically he said he does not believe in realms being literal. That they are states of mind. So that in regards to bodhisattva vows, there is no going to hell for breaking them, but you find yourself in a hellish state of mind as a natural consequence of poor actions. He makes a conscious choice to focus on helping people to develop and maintain love, compassion, joy and equanimity. He also mentioned that our experiences that are hellish help us to exhaust our bad karma, which can help encourage us to see those things as a gift, as difficult as they can be. Of course, he made sure to mention that people should worry about their own karma and hellish experiences, and not point them out to others, as it's mostly always unskillful to go to someone who is suffering and tell them their suffering is a good thing.
We don't focus a lot on sutra study as a group. My teacher is quite well studied, but he finds more value in helping people cultivate qualities that can help themselves, and others, in every day life rather than focus on memorizing sutras and spending hours attempting to decipher them. So I think he is reluctant to give an exact opinion on specific sutras because he prefers we focus on other things. We do cover some major sutras on occasion, but usually only as they relate to developing those qualities. I re-watched the videos from our bodhisattva vow retreat and ceremony and the Brahama net sutra was not mentioned a single time, nor did we cover the major or minor bad actions because committing bad acts, and dealing with the fall out of them is all part of the overall cultivation we work on all the time.
Once I can watch the video, I will let you know. That is just a paraphrasing my friend gave me. I did email him, but sometimes it takes a while for him to respond to email, lol. I posed the question to our sangha group so my friend was nice enough to bring it to him in person.
I think that is important to not impose this on others and keep it your own practice
In a slightly related topic, it was interesting how President Obama's rather honest and blunt assessment of religion and oppression/violence at the prayer breakfast last week once again stirred up the racists on the Tea Party side of the spectrum.
I noticed that too, @vinlyn. Oh noes. The man not only refuses to blame all of Islam for ISIS, but he called out Christianity for some of their horrific crimes in the names of Christ. HOW DARE HE.
You did pretty good for a Yank, I thought "Monty Python" right off the bat. Must be your British ancestors speaking up, hey?
I shouldn't feel dismay that this is happening (it's happening all over my Facebook feed, thanks to a number of my dear friends/acquaintances having that particular politico-religious charge).
But I do. Doesn't ANYONE THINK???? (ow, I hurt my pinky finger pounding out those question marks)
All the best things are British, of course.
Indeed. The Buddha was British.
Like I said, the Buddha was an ancestor of Lawrence of Arabia, sent undercover by the British Foreign Office to make the Indians more peaceful and easy to colonise later on.
@karasti , thank you for your input.
I pretty much conclude matters the same way; as I mentioned, the Realms are very much taken by many scholars to be indicative of States of MIND, rather than physical locations, so it follows, quite logically, that this opinion would fit with these ideas too....
I guess there's more than one truth to "home is where the heart is"...
Thanks for doing that, I look forward to the youtube video...
. . . and now back to the inquisition . . .
Yeah, like Piltdown Man.
Well, I'm a "Yank" whose ancestors actually hail from the remnants of another great Empire--the Roman one. But I love Monty Python, also Fry and Laurie.
I read "The Life of Brian" when I was in middle school, and felt like I discovered a completely new way to laugh. None of my friends or family laughed when I cornered them and forced them to listen to me quote the book (lol), and the few who took the time to say "I don't get it" just gave my young, bloated ego even more evidence I was surrounded by trolls
I am a vestige to both empires.
I really wouldn't like to even begin to guess what I am!!
My roots are from a warrior clan on the west coast of Ireland, the Coyles of Mayo. Dodgy dealings with the Spanish a few centuries back I gather, they reckon I have some Spanish blood too.
I've never been to Spain so I just base my impressions on Manuel from Fawlty Towers.
Which are HIS impressions.....
I know, he cracks me up though.
"Hi speek Heenglish berry good I lurn heet from a booook...."
Did you know his dad used to compere "The good Old days"...? (God how old AM I!?)
Humour in the UK is practically the alternative Church of England. American humour often surpasses the Anglicans with its parody religions.
Irish humour is legendary. Jewish humour goes back to a nice Jewish boy who couldn't make it as a doctor and left the family carpentry business . . .
The Muslims have Nasrudin. Buddhists have Zen mistresses. We used to have court jesters. In Korea they have a man who eats cheese. Awesome.
It is wonderful.
and now a message from a Boddhisatva:
Since everything is but an apparition, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst out in laughter
Longchenpa
Now all I hear is.............This is not the greatest song in the world, this is just a tribute....
Lucky I LOVE Tenacious D
_ /\ _
Wait a sec, it's a book?
Yes, the script is in book form. I liked it better than the movie because I couldn't understand the British accent
We have an accent?? I thought YOU were the ones with the accent!
Oh yus, we speak the Queen's bleedin' English proper like.
Okay, got it. Yeah, not only the accent, but they get the words wrong too. They say "tin" when they mean can, "petrol" when they mean gas, and "Prime Minister" when they mean "President". Sheesh!
And you make this sentence sound a lot like a five syllable WORD when ya get goin' like (LOL). I've since gotten much better at hearing a southern British accent over time, or is it western . . . sounds like lots of consonants are dropped and the mouth is moving over the vowels only but I can understand it. Forget the Scots, though, I need subtitles and they're my direct ancestors. The Irish brogue too is easier to 'hear' and understand than British accents from the south and west.
And they say 'bin' when they mean 'garbage pail'. I keep imagining an old fashioned flour bin, the kind in 19th century kitchens. And the word 'mate' for friend? Really? I'm stayin' away! Thanks but erm, no thanks!
There was a time in what I laughingly call 'my spiritual awakening', when everything we planet of apes did was funny.
However it is not tactful, expedient or socially viable to laugh at anyone who is not ourself.
Here are British comics making fun of what we used to laugh at, which was well . . . see for yourself . . . humour within humour . . . it is quite possible it is incomprehensible as humour to some who have different cultural nuances and funny bones . . .
I loved the Fast Show
I belong to the Mel Brooks response to racism [lobster breaks into a chorus of 'Spring time for Hitler and Germany']
We don't have the tea party in the UK but we do have a clown with a beer
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-30819779
. . . meanwhile in the colonies . .
-Similar to those Catholic depictions of Hell, I suppose these depictions could arise out of a desire to motivate (potential irony noted)...