Nobody expects the Buddhist Inquisition!
zenguitar
Bad BuddhistNew England Veteran
Good morning, Sangha,
I was looking at various forms of bodhisattva vows described in sutras (e.g. Brahma's Net sutra) and invariably there is a warning that if you transgress your vows, or even think about doing so, you will be reborn in one of the hell realms, or as a hungry ghost, or as an ox, an elf, a garden gnome, or as a person with no hands or belly button, etc. There is not much mention of the good that comes from observing the vows, but mostly descriptions of the bad things that will result if you break them.
Most troubling of all are the warnings that say if you dare to teach or practice a system of thought that is not Mahayana (invariably referred to as "Hinayana") you will get much the same terrible karmic result.
I wonder, how is this different from the medieval strong-arm scare tactics used by some Christians, e.g. Jonathan Edwards in his "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," in order to whip the "wicked" into line? Or the Inquisition telling Galileo not to teach Copernican science? Or Catholic nuns wielding punitive rulers over your head?
As a result of my readings, I have been thinking lately that I would like to be a bodhisattva, but one who is unaffiliated with "religion," which I associate with the kind of Gothic beliefs and attitudes described above. Is that possible?
Comments
Not much different, and I wouldn't take it too seriously. I've been into "Hinayana" for a while, so I'm destined for hell I guess.
What tradition are you currently involved with?
From my own personal PoV, it is absolutely NO different to the strong-arm tactics you describe.
And it's frankly, again, if you were to just ask me, a bombastic, authoritarian, inflexible and dogmatic attitude.
That's why on the whole, I much prefer Theravada (And hinayana is an extremely derogatory and insulting term).
That too has its 'drawbacks' but in general it is a much more 'grounded' and focussed practice.
I think anyone can be a Bodhisattva, and remain neutral.
I think there are countless unsung heroes who selflessly work for the good of others.
I don't think all of them are even remotely associated with Mahayana.
Y-not?
And that is my personal opinion.
I ma also closest to Theravada though.
Mostly I just want to know which vow I should break to come back as a garden gnome.
Number 6. But even that's stretching it a bit...
And before you ask, yes, I HAVE already bought my fishing rod....
The promotion of hell realms may be pretty scary in the hands of a Dante or those who followed in his wake and likewise in Buddhism. But what is pretty interesting in these ghost stories 'round the camp fire is that there is always one person laying it on and another person sucking it up.
My questions include, in an endeavor like Buddhism that encourages one and all to find out for themselves: A. is wielding someone else's sword warranted or even very sensible and B. Setting aside the hell realms that others may provide, what ever happened to the hell realms that exist in your mind/heart and mine? Put less politely, don't you have enough shit on your plate without asking for seconds?
OK, I get it: Everyone starts out believing someone else's good news and thus, ipso facto, the bad news as well. Naturally, when promoting the good news, there is little or no mention of the downside. This is a hopeful, beginner's strategy ... here is something to ease the unsatisfactoriness in my life ... gimme some of that ... preferably with a cherry on top.
But then, thank god, practice intervenes and believing others and their camp fire stories slips slowly away as actual-factual practice takes root. Experience reshapes virtue bit by bit. On the one hand, it's pretty hard. On the other, it's a lot easier than living on camp fire tales.
I just took a look at the Brahma's Net Sutra, and I'll be honest with you, having perused it, I'm hard put to think of why anybody would even want to be a Bodhisattva after reading that.
Frankly, in my eyes, it's utterly ludicrous.
Like asking you to pole-vault with a skipping rope.
Zenguitar's quote
I have been thinking lately that I would like to be a bodhisattva, but one who is unaffiliated with "religion," which I associate with the kind of Gothic beliefs and attitudes described above. Is that possible?
@zenguitar
Your meditation is simply a manifestation of what you have said that you seek.
You are actually already on the path to manifesting what you have just asked is possible.
The one where you have to give up the "five pungent vegetables" (This is a real vow!)
And that, frankly, is ludicrous all on its own!
I associate myself with Zen, because (though I could be wrong about this) I get the impression that Theravada is a more monastic-oriented spirituality, and I've no desire to be a monk. Also I admire the general Mahayana bodhisattva spirit...except when it views other traditions as heresy.
Plus Zen is associated with Shaolin monks and samurai warriors, which boosts its cool and macho factors many times, IMHO. :lol
Vajrayana is fascinating as well but it is a little too complex for me. That's just my opinion though.
And yes, @federica, I am aware that "Hinayana" is a derogatory term, that's why I put it in quotes.
I could never give up garlic or onions. Leeks I can live without (I'm not Welsh).
I don't even know what the other two are (rocambole and squill). 
I got this from the link I posted:
"4. On Five Pungent Herbs
A disciple of the Buddha should not eat the five pungent herbs -- garlic, chives, leeks, onions, and asafoetida"
Asafoetida is actually known as the dung root because it absolutely stinks - but enhances flavour beautifully. I used some in the lime pickle I made recently....
I found these for 'rocambole'
and as for 'squill'....sounds like much of the same....
I just think they perhaps considered being smelly as being antisocial - which makes 'saving others' decidedly challenging...!
Thanks @federica. Other interesting trivia about the Brahma Net vows: The 5th major precept prohibits the selling of alcohol (not the drinking of it). It's only the secondary precepts that you are enjoined not to drink it. So selling is considered worse than consuming it yourself.
I guess drinking it yourself, "harms one". Selling it to others has the potential to "harm many".
I can see the logic behind some of these precepts. But the conditions are completely impossible, and the punishment is draconian....
I agree that no one expects the Buddhist inquisition. But I have met Western Buddhists who are attracted to the "religion" because they see it as a lifestyle without consequences.
I don't believe the above consequences to be either real, or realistic. it's all fantasy as far as I'm concerned and has left the realms of credibility....
In the UK we have Thai Forest and Samatha Trust. Thai Forest do have monasteries but also a lot of affiliated local groups for lay people. Samatha Trust is non-monastic and comprised entirely of lay-Buddhists. Both are characterised by a strong emphasis on mindfulness and meditation, perhaps not dissimilar to the Zen schools.
And that's another interesting little gem. And I'm talking about you here!!!! But, we have posters who will swear upon the various Buddhist scriptures till they run across something like this, and then the non-cherry pickers will conveniently cherry pick. Humans are weird!
Sorry, I was typing in a hurry as the 'phone was ringing!
Permit me please to elaborate...
I know realms exist, and I know that certainly by many, they're taken as being metaphorical, and representative of Mind-States, some of which should be avoided at all costs and others which should be worked on, modified and adapted to a better Mind-Set....
However, my bone of contention is the dire warnings of punishments and consequences... they really do seem to echo some 17th-century Ecclesiastical thought-processes, and are not in my view, representative of the Buddha or his teachings regarding transcending suffering...
I mean, how does one transcend suffering, knowing these fates await you, should you be classed as a transgressor?!
there, that's better....
I can't think of anyone like that here.
This is one of those areas I think it is ideal to have a teacher for. It is so easy to read stuff online, get the opinions of people online, and form your own interpretation without actually working with a teacher who holds the lineage to understand what is truly meant by the words. Even veteran students of the Dharma here have their own experiences and interpretations, and they are going to vary widely based on not only which specific tradition they follow, but whether they have a teacher or not, who their teacher is, and so on. It can be an invaluable resource to have so many different opinions in one place. It can also make things quite confusing when everyone offers their take, and you have to pick and choose what you think is right.
With my teacher, it has never been taught or even suggested, that Theravada (or Hinayana) is meant to be a bad thing, or an insulting thing. I understand of course that historically the term Hinayana is offensive and I respect the wishes of practitioners not to be referred to as such. I've just never been taught that it is a bad term. The only focus has been that in Theravada, the focus is on working on yourself, and in Mahayana the focus is on working for others. But, the understanding has always been that one cannot to the latter without the former. It does little good for your personal evolution to help a neighbor clean the trash at their house if your house is full of it. Mahayana has always been presented to me as a furthering, as what you start to work on when you've worked through a lot of your personal stuff. My teacher is actually a Vajrayana teacher but we focus more on the Mahayana right now, including Bodhisattva retreats and vows. He is a lineage holder and has his own schedule for his students, and his own vows. The Bodhisattva vows are not intimidating or threatening in any way. There is no "If you break a vow, you are going to hell realms!!" in our Bodhisattva training. We've never been taught to work on things out of fear, or to prevent breaking vows out of fear. It's expected it will happen, even if our goal is for it not to happen. The focus is what you do if you do break a vow.
Had I attempted to take on some of this without a teacher, I would have been concerned and confused indeed. But having that person who has extensive training and experience, who I can go to with my doubts and my questions and get answers specific to him knowing who I am and what my strengths and weaknesses are, is very important to me. I am not saying you have to have a teacher. But when you are looking for guidance, it's the best place to get answers. I love being here, I love the discussions that happen here. But having a stable foundation in my teacher and sangha is invaluable. Online discussions (just my honest opinion) are not a replacement for having a teacher. It is better than having nothing, of course. But teachers are more available to work over long distances than you probably think. If you are interested, of course.
That's useful to know, @karasti. It would be extremely interesting to know what your teacher's own views would be, on the Brahma's Net Sutra, for example.... While I have my opinion based on factors I have learnt and absorbed, via a different tradition that appealed to me more (I don't see how I can be 'cherry-picking' if I have never professed myself to be a follower or devotee of Mahayana traditions), it would be an illuminating thing to hear something "from the horse's mouth" as it were on something taught within your own Teacher's...'reach'.... If you see what I mean...
Would you venture to ask him of his thoughts on the matter....?
In his book "Thoughts without a thinker," Mark Epstein uses the iconography of hells and heavens to describe our psyche.
The Wheel of Life has been used for ages to illustrate a synopsis of the teachings of the Buddha.
Though I have explored all schools of Buddhism and read material from all, for whatever reason, I have only been in Tibetan sanghas.
In the former, my teacher is Gelug, and now I am in a Dzogchen group.
Never have I heard utterances of going to hell for doing or not doing anything, except for the hell or heaven that I create for myself by making unskillful or skillful choices.
People who believe in hell and heaven can be found in any religion and despite the differences in the creed corpus, they tend to be suspiciously very similar in intellectual terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavacakra
http://www.thangka.de/Gallery-2/Wheel/Wheel-Expl.htm
http://buddhism.about.com/od/tibetandeities/ig/Wheel-of-Life-Gallery/Bhavachakra.htm
@zenguitar
Another possible zen view.
The variations of human beliefs are pretty limitless with
each religion being just another sampling of that limitless range.
The endless beliefs that parade by our senses have little import compared with the simple practicality offered by a sincere meditation practice.
If a belief has merit, it will exist free of a need to be believed in. If it requires your belief to become real, then it's only another conditioned mentality to be left unfed.. If it is presented as a teaching of value, then as a Buddhist, screen it first through the four seals and then for whether it's application really helps you in resolving sufferings cause.
Yes, sort of, though I think it's a question of skillful means and method rather than a fundamental difference of goal. If one meditates, practices mindfulness and observes precepts then naturally one will be more considerate towards others, and less ego-centric.
Also I don't think a Theravada practitioner would end up with a selfish version of enlightenment!
@federica I will see if I can find out what exactly his thoughts are on it.
“Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them."
Stick with this and one can't go wrong
I think it is gesticulation. A lot of Vajrayana teachers specifically teach the hinayana in a retreat or book. So the actual practice of the humans involved can be different from what is found in a particular scripture. They say things in scripture like 'imagine a sword will chop off your head if you lose mindfulness'. Remember it's a raft!
I think it would be a good question to ask a modern mahayana or vajrayana teacher their opinion on the various scriptures.
Some scriptures are wrong probably but the focus of the dharma is on understanding reality of our mind. So if thinking you are going to hell helps you meditate 2x what you would and engage in the most powerful mind training then it is good. I wouldn't want to use as my main practice contemplating this and that to lead me to hell!
OP, it is no different from the Christian medieval strong-arm tactics. Because in Buddhism, it also comes from the medieval period. A lot of medieval practices and beliefs survived well into modern times in Tibet and other isolated parts of Inner Asia. And sometimes that stuff was preserved simply because it was believed to be sacred scripture, and therefore not subject to change. A lot of superstition lives on.
Take it with a grain of salt.
On the other hand, there's not much point in taking vows without having serious intent to keep them. I think that's the message you can take away from this.
Try harder
This is the text that went with the Bodhisattva vow retreat with my teacher. It's about 9 pages long, around page 8 is where you will find the vow as he has us take it. As you can see, it's much more about intention in helping other than focusing on the 18 bad actions and the other lesser bad actions. Some of it will be stuff that probably doesn't make sense to everyone since it refers to multiple buddhas and such, that's all part of Vajrayana. But for anyone interested in a different take on the vow.
http://www.bodhicittasangha.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Bodhicitta-Sangha-Daily-Practice-to-Renew-Bodhisattva-Vows.pdf
Thanks everyone. Perhaps I would benefit from having a teacher. Too bad I am the skeptical/suspicious type that tends to run whenever I hear the word "guru." I think of people in orange pajamas putting salmonella in salad bars. And I have read about the scandals that have happened at various sanghas (not that they happen in every one).
On the other hand, I have read that it's not really possible to progress in Zen without a teacher, since it is a "face to face transmission."
Or is it? Hmm...
I don't think it's a face-to-face transmission. However, it's nice to have some in-person instruction on meditation. And it's nice to receive teachings from a good teacher, now and then, at least. I think if you could possibly attend a session or a weekend retreat with any one or more of the reputable teachers, you'd find some inspiration in that. Stephen and Martine Batchelor are trained in the Korean Zen tradition; Martine teaches meditation, and Stephen teaches the dharma, without the magic "transmission" hoo-ha. Roshi Joan Halifax can be good, too. She weaves the dharma into everyday life situations. All three of those are very concerned about ethics issues, and are professional, yet personable. There must be others, as well, but these are the 3 that I know of in Zen. They travel around, and do retreats in different locations. They may show up at some point in the NE, OP.
In your own time.
How much longer did you need to study pyjama boy Bhagwan (the well known nitrous oxide 'Buddha field') or the latest new age scandal?
You have discernment in place. Next!
. . . and now back to the comfy chair . . .
When the student is ready.........................
@zenguitar
From my saddle atop a zen zafu...
With a mind/heart determined enough to find liberation from our own greed, aversion and ignorance, a face to face transmission is just a description of a daily practice.
Without first developing a willingness to face all the costs of awakening from our own identity dream, the Buddha in person, would not amount to a face to face transmission.
To progress in Zen, as with any other school I've seen, simply requires your steadfast ceasing from evil, doing only good and the purifying of your heart/mind.
One of the main reasons that made me follow the teachings of the Buddha in the pali cannon was in several discourses that I remember reading, the Buddha said something along the lines of, Arahant so and so has completed the holy life, done what had to be done, has laid down the burden, reached the true goal, has completely destroyed the fetters of being, and is liberated through non clinging and will no longer return to any state of being.
I wonder what tools of torture would be favored by a Buddhist Inquisition?
Having to murder your own chicken for dinner?
Being force-fed liquor or cocaine?
Being sentenced to a life of debauchery surrounded by pole dancers?
Google: Thailand Buddhist Hell
some gory pictures of what a Buddhist hell is supposedly like. They'd probably use some of the same techniques.
Holy shit @Vinlyn, how am I gonna unsee that
Thai Buddhist hell looks a lot like some monk's repressed fantasies unleashed.
And the scary thing is, you see these "Buddhist hell theme parks" at quite a few temples...rarely in Bangkok...more upcountry. Great fun!
In a Hieronymous Bosch kind of way, yeah.
I'm not even going to go near Google with that now......One anguished member here's enough to put me off looking
It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it!
Tsk, tsk those are some of my favoured tantric Sadhana (do not try these without a few decades of practice ladies and gentleman) . . . too advanced for me . . .
The great sadhus excluded by caste, behavour, gender and fanatical and extreme adherence to the rhinosaurus sutra, became the heir to the Buddhas awakening
http://vajranatha.com/teaching/MahasiddhaTradition.htm
In some ways their orthodox descendants have now become part of an exclusive institution. Ain't it alway the way . . . but that is another story . . .
The favoured torture method of the Tibetan Inquisition is isolation from real Siddha and the pseudo-metta of well meaning ignoramuses.
Most of us torture ourself with our Dukkha, lack of awareness and inability to stay away from our own demons.
. . . and now back to saving all sentients . . .
holy cp! Luckily Sri Lankan Buddhist are less explicit about depicting hells...
Imagine going to SL and being assaulted by that kind of thing...