Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Random pondering on compassion and meanness.
Rowan1980
Keeper of the ZooAsheville, NC Veteran
Is the concerted effort to not be mean to another person something seen as abnormal in our culture? I don't mean the refusal to wisely assert one's self or to allow yourself to be a doormat. I mean being firm without being a cruel jerk. I was told that I don't have to be "nice" all the time and can say something mean. I wasn't upset so much as a little surprised and intrigued. I've been working on exercising better judgment in terms of how I interact with others, trying to take other people's concerns, experiences, etc. into account.
I've been on the receiving end of mean words, and I felt like garbage. I've SAID mean things, and that also made me feel like garbage. So I make an effort to not do it. Somehow, this is weird? I mean, I am no better not worse than anyone else, so why would I make someone else feel like that if there's a more effective, less cruel way to get one's point across?
I should add that "niceness" is often rather shallow, and that's not what I am aiming for.
I've been on the receiving end of mean words, and I felt like garbage. I've SAID mean things, and that also made me feel like garbage. So I make an effort to not do it. Somehow, this is weird? I mean, I am no better not worse than anyone else, so why would I make someone else feel like that if there's a more effective, less cruel way to get one's point across?
I should add that "niceness" is often rather shallow, and that's not what I am aiming for.
1
Comments
My dad says that one of the most liberating things he learned in 7 years of group therapy was that he could SOMETIMES be a 'prick'. At the same time I've seen him do one or two things that I thought were foolish.. ok for a normal person but wrong for 'right action'. The one I am thinking about is at our cottage. There is a row of cottages all different families. He thought the neighbor had put dog poop on his porch and so he got revenge and threw dog poo on theirs lol. It might have actually been right action but it is not something I would ever do!
Sometimes you can let things slide.
Sometimes a stronger action -don't replace for reaction, please- is called for.
I feel good about myself when the way I respond is consistent with the circumstances.
Right speech. Saying whatever needs to be said, in the most skillful way possible, is always apposite.
You can be quite firm without raising your voice, nor saying mean things.
You can get your point across without being cruel.
But if someone's unskillful behaviour needs to be stopped, it needs to be stopped.
Happens a lot in this mediocre village I live in.
Ostracism is the price you pay for not indulging in what seems to be everybody's favourite passtime.
I think people say things like that "it's ok to be mean!" because they know they also feel like garbage when they do it and are just looking for justification. I think that's a good sign-it means what you are setting out to do is working, and being noticed. People can see maybe there is another way. They may or may not take it up, but it certainly can't do any harm for them to be exposed to it.
Sometimes with people I am close to, if they do the gossip/backstabbing thing, i will say "So, that is your perception of what happened. What do you think their perception might be?" Most of the time they have no answer, but hopefully they at least stop to think about it and why they are so insistent on their being right in their gossip.
Why should refraining from doing something that make you and others feel like garbage be weird?
If anything, it would be weird to think otherwise.
@Rowan1980
I have no magic ball here and am not promoting meanness but was wondering......
I can see someone responding that way to you if they felt you were consistently pushing a Polly Anna doctrine where you were unable to accept anybody's dark side, only it's light.
You are seeing it as your concerted effort to not be mean to another person where they might be seeing you being deliberately blind to 1/2 of their view of reality.
Just a possibility.
Oh yeah!
Saying what is wise, appropriate and will move the person forward is always dependent on what the hearer has the capacity to hear. Saying it in a way that allows such a communication takes a great deal of awareness and skill. If that is your aim and ability, then whatever is said is right speech. So it is a question of intention, integrity and wisdom.
That's the plan.
I think when we do Buddhist practice we just become more aware of these things, so in a way we are a bit weird, or at least a bit unusual.
Like I always say, "The spoken word belongs half to him that speaks and half to him who hears."
Actually, Montaigne said it before me...
I was wondering this too, but at the moment couldn't have said it nearly so well as How. It's difficult to put into words, and not have it come across as a defense or vindication of 'meanness', or some kind of personal criticism of Rowan1980.
I'll moderate this a bit and instead say ". . . if they felt you consistently overlooked or avoided noticing or discussing the dark side, only its light." I know that I do this sometimes, and go to great lengths to avoid giving any attention to 'the dark side', at least openly. I'm really hardly ever 'mean', even when I am afraid I'm being mean.
Then again, this bit of feedback could be completely off base, more about the person(s) who gave than about you? That's what's good about giving someone else's criticism of you a chance, to roll it around and get a feel for it, unpleasant as it might be. 'Cuz then you can throw it out knowing it really isn't true, for you, rather than throw it out and be angry or butt-hurt, or even afraid that it might be true
Well, although I would be the last to say I adhere to this religiously, I'm constantly reminded of HHDL's recommendation:
"Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible."
Also the three Wisdom Mind-Gates Sufis recommend you pass through, before speaking:
Is it true?
Is it necessary?
Is it kind?
My response to your 'critic' would be "Well, I HAVE tried the alternative, but somehow, I don't get as good results".
As far as pointing out, well, problematic behaviors, I've no issue with doing that. I do it quite frequently, and often in a blunt manner. That said, I try to avoid being nasty when doing so, especially in a work environment. We all need the occasional clue-by-four to the head.
Indeed, that motivation is paramount. Being nasty is always our problem. Being wrathful in a kind way is something that comes in time, truly it has potential dangers but is only one of the masks of kindness . . . It is sometimes referred to as 'tough love'. It is certainly not an oxymoron to talk about being 'nasty' to be kind. Every parent will be aware of this situation . . .
I would also suggest that these very excellent restraints deepen. In the story of Khidr instructing Moses, we have an individual whose actions are contrary to the norms of wisdom and sanctity . . . but that is a story for another time and place . . .
I think there are 2 mistakes that we can make in dealing with difficult people.
The first is that anything we say or do -- no matter what the approach -- is always going to make a difference.
The second is that there is only one way to handle people, and that is through kindness.
I'll give you two examples.
For the first case above, I give you my sister. I have known no people is my life who have lived such a worthless life to society -- and even to herself -- as my sister. Since her mid-teen years, she never did nothing for nobody. Most of her adult life she lived in something we could define as being close to a hovel (in modern American when you piss and shit in a pot because you don't have the ambition to get your toilet fixed...for 7 years...that's my definition of a hovel). She rarely worked -- and I mean I doubt that she worked for a year in her whole life...total. At best she was a pot head, but since booze and drugs killed her at a relatively young age (50), it went far beyond pot. Her teeth literally rotted out of her head. I could go on for volumes, but I think you get the image. It mattered how a person treated her -- she was totally oblivious to anyone else's feelings. So many people tried to make a difference in my sister's life. It didn't matter the approach. Things with some person would work for a short while, and then they'd walk away just shaking their head and never going back. My mother was the soft touch; that did nothing for my sister, and my sister did NOTHING for my/her mother. Her son was a realistic soft touch who tried to be supportive; she ALWAYS let him down. I was more on the "I don't give a shit" side. My grandmother was more the tough love type. Friends drifted in and quickly drifted away. No one ever made an impact on her, and she never made an impact on anyone else.
For a second example, I give you one of our school's reading teachers. She was bitch. Now before you jump on me for saying that, that's what she would say about herself...literally. She would tell people (including me, her boss), "I'm a bitch and I know it. And you all are just going to have to put up with it." And people tried all sorts of approaches, and in the end, nothing ever changed. I would like to have fired her (although in terms of reading curriculum and teaching techniques with the kids, she was very effective) or transferred her out (but no one would ever dare do a formal complaint I could work with).
Now as to the second mistake we make, it's thinking that one size fits all. There were kids (and adults) who were being a major problem, and I could put my hand on their shoulder and just say, "Look, I need you to do me a favor...." And it would work, often long term. There were other kids (and teachers) I had to go to mat with.
I guess I'm just babbling here, but there are frustrating people out there that virtually no one has success dealing with, and "the" Buddhist approach -- if there even is one -- doesn't always work. Period.
@federica
"Is it true" & "Is it kind" are no-brainers for me, but I really liked the "Is it necessary". If you know that approaching someone is not going to be well received, no matter how well you put lipstick on the pig, then why even go there? I think much compassion is being conveyed if the unapproachable, or difficult, person knows that you are available, if needed... then let it go.
Sometimes for the benefit of others.
For example, would you not intervene when someone is being bullied?
Yes, I personally don't know anyone that wouldn't be thankful for that... yet
edit... I take it back, I guess some folks could be prideful and not want your help. Shouldn't that be their call? Maybe bullying is less painful than taking a pride hit? Again, I think there is value in being there when they need you, not when you think they should need you.
Ad here's your big mistake.
Ego.
It's Ego to believe we can make a difference, and it's Ego to believe that people can be handled.
See, the reason I TRY to be kind whenever possible, and the reason I consider Truth/Necessity/Kindness, is not for anybody else's benefit, necessarily.
I do it because I believe it to be right and that it improves ME.
I'm not looking to change the world. I'm not looking to change anyone.
I'm looking to ME.
And no matter what the outcome, I need to be able to look at myself in the mirror, and know i did my best, to be the best person I could be.
Like I said, I don't always succeed.
But that's my failure.
Actually I find that post to be full of ego.
Yes, I can see how like attracts like.....
Speaking of the ego.
Have you ever noticed how easy it is to see the dark side of a person, "think negatively of someone" no effort whatsoever, but seeing the light/goodness in a person takes a lot more effort/work...
There is an alternative habit available
At the Buddhist group I belong to, we often discuss those mind training verses...