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@octinomos said:
not many people would turn down a million dollars, for example, even if they knew the person offering it had just gone completely insane... no one is that honest...
You are mixing with the wrong crowd. Just so you know.
Consider that an honest answer. I waver my usual priceless fee to the partially insane . . .
3
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@octinomos said:
not many people would turn down a million dollars, for example, even if they knew the person offering it had just gone completely insane... no one is that honest...
Actually, I did.
It wasn't quite a 'million dollars' but I used to work in a hospital, as a cleaner, and my allocated wards included the geriatric ward.
I became very friendly with many of the elderly and infirm there, and one day, one lady called me over, and pressed an envelope into my hand. She said "I wanted you to have this, dearie, because you've got such a lovely smile!"
Being extremely busy, I thanked her and told her I'd read it in my break. She beamed at me, and just squeezed my hand affectionately.
When I eventually got round to it, at lunch time, I opened the envelope and found a cheque in there for £10,000. All legal. My name was correct, and everything.
The moment my shift finished, at around three in the afternoon, I immediately went to the ward and asked to have a word with the Senior Matron (Hospitals in those days still had Matrons and Sisters....) and asked her about this particular patient. We chatted for quite a while....
Basically, a tiny bit la-la.... just a teensy weensy bit away with the fairies. Lovely, but gets confused. Had obviously taken a shine to me, because she told others now and then, that I was her grand-daughter, although whenever I had seen her, she had never treated me differently, or made any reference of it to me... Most of the time, it seemed, she knew I was just an employee like any other....
At this point, I took the cheque out of my pocket, and suggested she hand it over to the lady's daughter, because it was obviously a huge mistake.
Matron was gob-smacked. She had no idea the patient had even had access to her chequebook.
I received a delightful and extremely grateful letter from her daughter about a week later. She was so touched by my honesty, and thanked me profusely for having returned the cheque, AND for being so understanding.
The sum of money pretty much covered this lady's entire wealth, and would have caused huge difficulties had I done anything else but return it.
And I could have kept it. it was all legal, and the woman wasn't totally away with it. She hadn't been declared incapable, and she really had wanted me to have the money.
Ten grand in those days would certainly have come in handy..... but both my parents were proud I'd returned it.
@octinomos I think you're wrong. Not only might someone give back the money, but plenty of people would. It happens often, if you look around for the good rather than the pessimistic. People find cash and really valuable things quite often and not only return them, but often go very far out of their way in an attempt to find the owner and return the item. Even people who don't have anything, return things they find. Not that long ago, a single mom found an envelop with thousands of dollars in it. She turned it in. It belonged to a college student who had just taken money from his account that he'd been saving for a long time to buy a car. People do good things a lot, thank goodness.
@Pöljä said:
octinomos: are you a Satanist? I tolerate their faith although I disagree in many things. Debates may be fruitful for both sides.
no, but it's no more offensive than being labeled christian... they're both incorrect...
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
The question was posed to you, and still remains: What are you doing here?
Talk of Higher Powers is offensive to some, so as a guest here, perhaps it would be considerate of you to quit shoving that little gem down our throats.
We get it. You and god have a thing going. Happy for you.
Fine.
Carry on.
We talk the same thing, only I call it G-d and you call it 'nothingness' or Nibbana or whatever you call it. But it's the same thing. So I'm here to talk about the same exact thing you talk about and adjust my vocabulary as needed, if I see, OK, this is causing people's panties to get all up in a bunch, so maybe i'll use this other word instead or whatever... I'm not like a dogmatist stuck in one dimension, and I can grow and adjust as needed by whatever situation arises... If you block me, it will show that you're the one stuck in one dimension and I will laugh...
neither of us is suggesting that monkeys run the place... we both want order and beauty... why can't i ask YOU what you're doing here. why do i have to justify and you don't...
the only thing that i'm getting so far is 'G-d sucks so don't even bring it up' so what do you have that's so much better. How am I to act in a respectable manner if there is not a Superior Intelligence directing things, making sure I don't mess up or whatever... Where do I get this magical power that you speak of to transcend, yada yada, or whatever you espouse... I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what is it exactly that you espouse and is that like the absolute best version that ever was? should you now become my teacher? is that it? you want me to only say certain words and not others?
My question is now open to any Buddhist. What defeats G-d? What do you teach about that's greater and more efficient than belief in a Superior Intelligence? You just kind of manage on your own as you go, and hope for the best? or follow exactly everything Buddha taught? or what... give me links, give me something...
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
What does the Abrahamic creator deity have to do with Ghandis ego?
I guess I must have missed something.
At any rate @octinomos, you don't need the fear of punishment from a superior being to keep you in line.
If G-d wants you blokes to block me so as to spend time more wisely, that's possible. I'm going to accept whatever outcome because there is only One Operator In Control of Reality, period. If you got something better that controls more than G-d, I'd sure like to hear what it is, because I will follow that instead...
mandala principle is greater than G-d... some mandalas G-d is the center and some mandalas people could care less about G-d..
so by understanding mandalas you can find which ones to reinforce. going into a Buddhist group and trying to outdo them with your beliefs is synonymous with trying to infiltrate the Buddhist mandala. It is agreed upon in general that this forum is about Buddhism even though of course we are all at different sects including 'home brew' beliefs but all here are interested in Buddhism.
So you go in the Buddhist mandala and try to take it over. Next the mandala guardians come in and expel you.
ok we are all damned to hell I hope not. I hope we all go to heaven! But I practice meditation.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited March 2015
Is there no age restriction for membership or was that an adult?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
If G-d wants you blokes to block me so as to spend time more wisely, that's possible. I'm going to accept whatever outcome because there is only One Operator In Control of Reality, period. If you got something better that controls more than G-d, I'd sure like to hear what it is, because I will follow that instead...
Strangely enough, like Ghandhi you have followed your personal ego, C-d was not really much in the picture . . . Civility and restraint has been enforced on you. Ah well . . .
G-ndhi as a flawed individual (any perfect ones present - away with you - go rescue a suffering child or something) and deeply religious man, caused a political turmoil, the partial effect of which was separation from imperial Britain and his death.
The B-ddha (PBUH) uniquely amongst those that prophesize, due to prevailing conditions traditionally survived two assasination attempts. A fish (symbol of the awake, eyes always open) in the ocean of samsara . . .
Maybe some good will come of all this . . . as usual that is up to each pers-n. Following something better than our own assesment is part of the company of friends, the Middle Way, the Dharma . . .
Goodness, lol, I missed all the fun! Wish he/she would have explained more what they thought their beliefs have in common with Buddhism. Enquiring minds!
@ourself One does not have to be an adult to be here, though I think this person was likely an adult (or very close to it) they are probably very young. The attitude is very similar to my son who is 18. Nothing, but nothing, can shake their beliefs at that age. Thankfully, life usually intervenes.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I don't know... When I was 18 I was just getting into Buddhism. I had no beliefs but reality was surreal.
My questioning the posters age was just an unskillful reaction.
A sign that I'm getting frustrated with everything.
My son (and most kids his age) is very "this is what I think, what I believe, and everyone who disagree, well, they are just WRONG. How can they even think that what they believe makes sense considering how much I've thought about what I believe?" It's kind of funny I remember being very much the same. Though I wasn't speaking so much about religious types of beliefs, but beliefs in anything.
@octinomos said:
If G-d wants you blokes to block me so as to spend time more wisely, that's possible. I'm going to accept whatever outcome because there is only One Operator In Control of Reality, period. If you got something better that controls more than G-d, I'd sure like to hear what it is, because I will follow that instead...
Oh my G-d! You did have a g-d awful day while I was out!
S--t!!
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@vinlyn absolutely. Especially in people who are uneducated and inexperienced with some variety in their lives. It is prevalent here, as there are generations of people who think traveling means going 50 miles to Walmart. They lack experience of the rest of the world (and often even the rest of the state they live in) and education, and those 2 combined is a bad thing. They don't get to see things differently and so never get a chance to adjust their thinking. They are afraid to do so. They like their tiny comfort zone and then produce kids with the same fears and comforts who marry other kids with the same fears and comforts and so on. It's quite interesting to observe over several decades now and with information from my parents from many years before I was born.
Anyhow, I at least can find it amusing with my kids because at least I hope they will learn better as they get older. I have my own fears, of course, but I work really hard to not put them on my kids or let them inhibit my kids or our family from experiencing, or talking about, anything. So I hope that openness and encouragement to explore their world and their minds keeps with them. But who knows. I'm constantly reminding them that no matter what they believe today, to always have an open mind to their thoughts changing, as they should. None of them understand why gay marriage as a topic is a big deal, "just let people marry who they want!" It's an easy example to point out how people have changed their beliefs and minds and how when people hold onto old thoughts and beliefs, not only does it harm them but sometimes others as well.
But it's also possible my son could be the next Michelle Bachmann. You never know.
Well said, Karasti! But let's hope theirs not a future Michelle Bachmann in your family's future!
Some people find themselves traveling through America. Or backpacking through Europe. Or traveling through Asia. But some, unfortunately, find themselves constantly walking up and down the aisles of their local Wal-Mart.
@vinlyn said:
No.
Look at it this way, Gandhi decided to take on the entire British Empire. That took guts...and ego.
Not necessarily. What it took was compassion. He wasn't necessarily thinking along the lines of "I can do this". He may have been thinking, "This needs to be done, to end the suffering here." We can't assume he was projecting his ego into it. Unless there's some evidence that would prove that, which there may be. But just because someone succeeds in moving a mountain doesn't mean he did it for his ego-satisfaction. He may have done it selflessly, allowing himself to be the instrument through which change was brought about.
There is evidence supported by interviews and statements by those around him, which has already been mentioned in the thread.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Dakini said:Not necessarily. What it took was compassion. He wasn't necessarily thinking along the lines of "I can do this". He may have been thinking, "This needs to be done, to end the suffering here." We can't assume he was projecting his ego into it. Unless there's some evidence that would prove that, which there may be. But just because someone succeeds in moving a mountain doesn't mean he did it for his ego-satisfaction. He may have done it selflessly, allowing himself to be the instrument through which change was brought about.
Don't over-glorify him, Dakini.
While there is absolutely, unarguably no doubt whatsoever that what he engineered is utterly matchless in the history of any country, my father, who knew him quite well, albeit in a professional capacity, recounted that at times he could be an extremely difficult and complex person to work with, and to be honest, he did have an ego, and quite a big one at that.
Take a look at some of the articles and links posted.
He wasn't the messiah-type you imagine him to be....
I bet Buddha was pretty difficult and complex, too, lol. And the HHDL! Probably the Karmapa, too, he looks really intense. Not saying Gandhi is the same as them. Just think anyone in such a lofty position would probably be difficult and complex. I think you have to be to have such a role and to truly have the capacity to understand things on that type of level.
Just in general, I think there's a tendency for people to want to think that their heroes are perfect. It's a let down when one begins to discover their heroes are not perfect, but once you begin to put human imperfection into perspective you can begin to say, "Hey, look, I know _________ was an imperfect human being, but despite his (or her) perfections, look at the magnificent things he (or she) accomplished."
Jesus, Buddha, Sri Ramana, Ghandi, Einstein, Mother Teresa
All these people were only placed on such a high chair after they died?
We like to imagine what these people were like.
There are people like the above in the world today, I bet you. We will probably only write books about then when they are gone
.
It is why it is important to emulate the higher qualities of Gandhi, not his faults. Once we begin to look for genuine virtue in ourself we begin to recognise the shameful sham and genuine in others. Gandhi had a guru and was very much attempting to improve.
Good for him. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrimad_Rajchandra
I think they had the same nutritionist . . .
Political achievements of Gandhi, yeah whatever, not so important.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I honestly believe that if all these wonderful people had no vices at all, I'd find it harder to respect them.
Comments
see new thread: how does ego relate to buddhist thought...
You are mixing with the wrong crowd. Just so you know.
Consider that an honest answer. I waver my usual priceless fee to the partially insane . . .
Actually, I did.
It wasn't quite a 'million dollars' but I used to work in a hospital, as a cleaner, and my allocated wards included the geriatric ward.
I became very friendly with many of the elderly and infirm there, and one day, one lady called me over, and pressed an envelope into my hand. She said "I wanted you to have this, dearie, because you've got such a lovely smile!"
Being extremely busy, I thanked her and told her I'd read it in my break. She beamed at me, and just squeezed my hand affectionately.
When I eventually got round to it, at lunch time, I opened the envelope and found a cheque in there for £10,000. All legal. My name was correct, and everything.
The moment my shift finished, at around three in the afternoon, I immediately went to the ward and asked to have a word with the Senior Matron (Hospitals in those days still had Matrons and Sisters....) and asked her about this particular patient. We chatted for quite a while....
Basically, a tiny bit la-la.... just a teensy weensy bit away with the fairies. Lovely, but gets confused. Had obviously taken a shine to me, because she told others now and then, that I was her grand-daughter, although whenever I had seen her, she had never treated me differently, or made any reference of it to me... Most of the time, it seemed, she knew I was just an employee like any other....
At this point, I took the cheque out of my pocket, and suggested she hand it over to the lady's daughter, because it was obviously a huge mistake.
Matron was gob-smacked. She had no idea the patient had even had access to her chequebook.
I received a delightful and extremely grateful letter from her daughter about a week later. She was so touched by my honesty, and thanked me profusely for having returned the cheque, AND for being so understanding.
The sum of money pretty much covered this lady's entire wealth, and would have caused huge difficulties had I done anything else but return it.
And I could have kept it. it was all legal, and the woman wasn't totally away with it. She hadn't been declared incapable, and she really had wanted me to have the money.
Ten grand in those days would certainly have come in handy..... but both my parents were proud I'd returned it.
I was 19.
octinomos: are you a Satanist? I tolerate their faith although I disagree in many things. Debates may be fruitful for both sides.
Yes, well don't go off-topic here, or keep it to PM. Thanks.
@octinomos I think you're wrong. Not only might someone give back the money, but plenty of people would. It happens often, if you look around for the good rather than the pessimistic. People find cash and really valuable things quite often and not only return them, but often go very far out of their way in an attempt to find the owner and return the item. Even people who don't have anything, return things they find. Not that long ago, a single mom found an envelop with thousands of dollars in it. She turned it in. It belonged to a college student who had just taken money from his account that he'd been saving for a long time to buy a car. People do good things a lot, thank goodness.
no, but it's no more offensive than being labeled christian... they're both incorrect...
The question was posed to you, and still remains: What are you doing here?
Talk of Higher Powers is offensive to some, so as a guest here, perhaps it would be considerate of you to quit shoving that little gem down our throats.
We get it. You and god have a thing going. Happy for you.
Fine.
Carry on.
We talk the same thing, only I call it G-d and you call it 'nothingness' or Nibbana or whatever you call it. But it's the same thing. So I'm here to talk about the same exact thing you talk about and adjust my vocabulary as needed, if I see, OK, this is causing people's panties to get all up in a bunch, so maybe i'll use this other word instead or whatever... I'm not like a dogmatist stuck in one dimension, and I can grow and adjust as needed by whatever situation arises... If you block me, it will show that you're the one stuck in one dimension and I will laugh...
neither of us is suggesting that monkeys run the place... we both want order and beauty... why can't i ask YOU what you're doing here. why do i have to justify and you don't...
No, it's not.
I never said you couldn't ask me. Up until now, you have ignored my attempt to ask/talk to you.
My justification is...I'm here to talk Buddhism.
You will laugh??? ..... Why?
From what I hear...'G-d don't like it when your being ugly' .... Your context/frame....not mine.
the only thing that i'm getting so far is 'G-d sucks so don't even bring it up' so what do you have that's so much better. How am I to act in a respectable manner if there is not a Superior Intelligence directing things, making sure I don't mess up or whatever... Where do I get this magical power that you speak of to transcend, yada yada, or whatever you espouse... I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what is it exactly that you espouse and is that like the absolute best version that ever was? should you now become my teacher? is that it? you want me to only say certain words and not others?
If I don't believe God exists...how can 'he' suck?
Your dodging the point.
Find you somebody to play with.
Have a nice day.
.... Deuces.
i was speaking to federica... thank you...
My question is now open to any Buddhist. What defeats G-d? What do you teach about that's greater and more efficient than belief in a Superior Intelligence? You just kind of manage on your own as you go, and hope for the best? or follow exactly everything Buddha taught? or what... give me links, give me something...
I guess I must have missed something.
At any rate @octinomos, you don't need the fear of punishment from a superior being to keep you in line.
If G-d wants you blokes to block me so as to spend time more wisely, that's possible. I'm going to accept whatever outcome because there is only One Operator In Control of Reality, period. If you got something better that controls more than G-d, I'd sure like to hear what it is, because I will follow that instead...
if ghandi is all you got, then you got work to do, homesies...
Oh good grief....
mandala principle is greater than G-d... some mandalas G-d is the center and some mandalas people could care less about G-d..
so by understanding mandalas you can find which ones to reinforce. going into a Buddhist group and trying to outdo them with your beliefs is synonymous with trying to infiltrate the Buddhist mandala. It is agreed upon in general that this forum is about Buddhism even though of course we are all at different sects including 'home brew' beliefs but all here are interested in Buddhism.
So you go in the Buddhist mandala and try to take it over. Next the mandala guardians come in and expel you.
ok we are all damned to hell
I hope not. I hope we all go to heaven! But I practice meditation.
Dunno. I'm only 12....
Strangely enough, like Ghandhi you have followed your personal ego, C-d was not really much in the picture . . . Civility and restraint has been enforced on you. Ah well . . .
G-ndhi as a flawed individual (any perfect ones present - away with you - go rescue a suffering child or something) and deeply religious man, caused a political turmoil, the partial effect of which was separation from imperial Britain and his death.
The B-ddha (PBUH) uniquely amongst those that prophesize, due to prevailing conditions traditionally survived two assasination attempts. A fish (symbol of the awake, eyes always open) in the ocean of samsara . . .
Maybe some good will come of all this . . . as usual that is up to each pers-n. Following something better than our own assesment is part of the company of friends, the Middle Way, the Dharma . . .
Fare Thee Well.
Goodness, lol, I missed all the fun! Wish he/she would have explained more what they thought their beliefs have in common with Buddhism. Enquiring minds!
@ourself One does not have to be an adult to be here, though I think this person was likely an adult (or very close to it) they are probably very young. The attitude is very similar to my son who is 18. Nothing, but nothing, can shake their beliefs at that age. Thankfully, life usually intervenes.
My questioning the posters age was just an unskillful reaction.
A sign that I'm getting frustrated with everything.
My son (and most kids his age) is very "this is what I think, what I believe, and everyone who disagree, well, they are just WRONG. How can they even think that what they believe makes sense considering how much I've thought about what I believe?" It's kind of funny
I remember being very much the same. Though I wasn't speaking so much about religious types of beliefs, but beliefs in anything.
While that may be more common among the "young", it's not uncommon among all ages.
Oh my G-d! You did have a g-d awful day while I was out!
S--t!!
M-vin' on n-w.....
@vinlyn absolutely. Especially in people who are uneducated and inexperienced with some variety in their lives. It is prevalent here, as there are generations of people who think traveling means going 50 miles to Walmart. They lack experience of the rest of the world (and often even the rest of the state they live in) and education, and those 2 combined is a bad thing. They don't get to see things differently and so never get a chance to adjust their thinking. They are afraid to do so. They like their tiny comfort zone and then produce kids with the same fears and comforts who marry other kids with the same fears and comforts and so on. It's quite interesting to observe over several decades now and with information from my parents from many years before I was born.
Anyhow, I at least can find it amusing with my kids because at least I hope they will learn better as they get older. I have my own fears, of course, but I work really hard to not put them on my kids or let them inhibit my kids or our family from experiencing, or talking about, anything. So I hope that openness and encouragement to explore their world and their minds keeps with them. But who knows. I'm constantly reminding them that no matter what they believe today, to always have an open mind to their thoughts changing, as they should. None of them understand why gay marriage as a topic is a big deal, "just let people marry who they want!" It's an easy example to point out how people have changed their beliefs and minds and how when people hold onto old thoughts and beliefs, not only does it harm them but sometimes others as well.
But it's also possible my son could be the next Michelle Bachmann. You never know.
Well said, Karasti! But let's hope theirs not a future Michelle Bachmann in your family's future!
Some people find themselves traveling through America. Or backpacking through Europe. Or traveling through Asia. But some, unfortunately, find themselves constantly walking up and down the aisles of their local Wal-Mart.
Not necessarily. What it took was compassion. He wasn't necessarily thinking along the lines of "I can do this". He may have been thinking, "This needs to be done, to end the suffering here." We can't assume he was projecting his ego into it. Unless there's some evidence that would prove that, which there may be. But just because someone succeeds in moving a mountain doesn't mean he did it for his ego-satisfaction. He may have done it selflessly, allowing himself to be the instrument through which change was brought about.
There is evidence supported by interviews and statements by those around him, which has already been mentioned in the thread.
Don't over-glorify him, Dakini.
While there is absolutely, unarguably no doubt whatsoever that what he engineered is utterly matchless in the history of any country, my father, who knew him quite well, albeit in a professional capacity, recounted that at times he could be an extremely difficult and complex person to work with, and to be honest, he did have an ego, and quite a big one at that.
Take a look at some of the articles and links posted.
He wasn't the messiah-type you imagine him to be....
I bet Buddha was pretty difficult and complex, too, lol. And the HHDL! Probably the Karmapa, too, he looks really intense. Not saying Gandhi is the same as them. Just think anyone in such a lofty position would probably be difficult and complex. I think you have to be to have such a role and to truly have the capacity to understand things on that type of level.
Just in general, I think there's a tendency for people to want to think that their heroes are perfect. It's a let down when one begins to discover their heroes are not perfect, but once you begin to put human imperfection into perspective you can begin to say, "Hey, look, I know _________ was an imperfect human being, but despite his (or her) perfections, look at the magnificent things he (or she) accomplished."
All these people were only placed on such a high chair after they died?
We like to imagine what these people were like.
There are people like the above in the world today, I bet you. We will probably only write books about then when they are gone
.
There is a Sufi saying: 'God has hidden the people of greatest wisdom'.
I have found this to be true. Celebrity 'outer form' teachers are of no import to the private buddhas
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddha
It is why it is important to emulate the higher qualities of Gandhi, not his faults. Once we begin to look for genuine virtue in ourself we begin to recognise the shameful sham and genuine in others. Gandhi had a guru and was very much attempting to improve.
Good for him.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrimad_Rajchandra
I think they had the same nutritionist . . .
Political achievements of Gandhi, yeah whatever, not so important.
I honestly believe that if all these wonderful people had no vices at all, I'd find it harder to respect them.