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new experience
federica
Seeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
in Meditation
This discussion was created from comments split from: What are we supposed to do from Zen perspective?.
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Hello everyone:) I'm new here. I'd like to share my experience and please help me grow with your insight.. My mind can "transfer me" out of my body. Hmm.. eg, I'm sitting at the beach... If I wish to, my mind will move outwards and upwards, and I can see myself sitting there, my feeling is peaceful and calm, a quiet joy. When I discovered I could do this, I begin to apply this, especially whenever I am in negative situations. The feeling I get is always peaceful and calm. Detached, not suffering, just watching "the me" in the difficult situation. It's not like watching a movie, it's watching the situation and watching "the me" and even knowingly, hmm... this is just this. I hope what I'm saying is clear. Thank you in advance, for your comments/explanation of what I'm experiencing.
Hello
Sounds like dissociation. What do you feel it is?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience
Here is my earlier comment:
@zenni -- Welcome. Hope you find something useful here.
As to your abilities and adventures, I hope you will take a moment to consider who it is who observes your "me" and its circumstances. Also, perhaps, whether "negative" situations need to be replaced or improved.
If you keep up your practice with patience, I imagine it will see you through whatever truths or falsehoods come your way.
Best wishes.
It sounds like you are less 'caught up' in the experience and just see it happening with some distance. doesn't sound too bad from my standpoint. ask a teacher about it.
Thank you lobster, genkaku, jeffery and federica too
@lobster - thanks for the link. Yes, it does sounds like dissociation. The very first time I experienced it, I was standing in a park, focussing on my breathing. Without intention or trying to imagine, somehow, I still don't know how it happened, I was lounging on a fluffy white cloud, looking down at "the me" standing in dim lights, in the park, b-r-e-a-t-h-i-n-g. I experienced PEACE, SERENITY AND QUIET JOY. I read and at first, thought it was visualization, but cancelled it because here was no intention on my part.
@genkaku - thank you for your comment. If I understand correctly, you are encouraging me to continue and you don't see it as something negative. As to who is observing "me".... It's definitely me. Hmm.. a bigger me, a wiser me, a me who sees a very wide perspective of "me" and those around and the situations or more accurately, a me with no notions.
"whether negative situations need to be replaced or improved" - sometimes it's hard to replace or improve without the co-operation of others, especially family. I use this "shift" often. Strangely, I am always above, never beside or between. It is out and up. It is always "not the me" up there, yet it is me. Always Peace. No hurting. Just observing...
@jeffery - lol, yes, that and more. I am not just 'less caught up', I'm not even there. And now it's back to lobster's dissociation. Unfortunately, I don't have a teacher. I'm trying to find out more, on the Internet. I hope to find out more and to be sure that this experience is not bad nor mad. I wonder if there are others who have this too.
Once, I was doing sitting meditation.. after a while, I found myself up there watching myself, sitting cross-legged with eyes closed. PEACE
Another time, there was this 'verbal diarrhea' raining on me, explaining and defending only made it worse, then I decided, and I went out and up. I could see the whole scene, with 'the me' in the scene and I could hear every word. But the words had no 'weight' and the whole scene had no meaning. PEACE
Thank you all, again
the verbal diarrhea experience raises a warning bell for me. See I am schizoaffective and hearing arguments 'rain down' sounds like hallucinations and delusion.
In the "West", this is called Astral Projection. In Tibetan Buddhist terms, it's the "very, very subtle mind" leaving the body. Ordinarily, it's considered something only yogis and great adepts can do. But some people have a natural gift for it. I had a friend in college in whose family the ability to do that was hereditary; no one in the mother's line could do it, but the father, and the kids spontaneously found themselves doing this at night, after going to bed. The father was adopted, so they didn't know anything about his lineage, i.e. whether he came from some kind of shamanic background, or not.
Pretty interesting. Enjoy.
@Zenni - Thank you for sharing and welcome. During my younger years they called it Astral Projection/Travel in which many was trying to learn out of curiosity. But with you, it is quite natural. As a buddhist I find it a little "off" in the practice because there is a possibility that one could be caught up with "sensory indulgence or pleasure".
In the tradition I try to follow they are not interested to discuss or give comment. All I can say is be careful when dealing matters of the mind. The pleasure that astral travel offered is merely a temporary. Suffering will return when you get back to your mind/body. Ask yourself if the the experience will lead to the permanent ceasation of suffering. But at the end - it is really up to you.
The Buddha recommend the cultivation of moral discipline, mindfulness and wisdom which most of us buddhist trying to follow. Hope this helps.
@Zenni
From the Zen perspective. which was the thread's heading.
The wish to leave the body is some thing to simply observe, not act upon.
The meditation practice is about learning how to allow the flow of all phenomena to arrive and depart with out grasping after it, ignoring it or rejecting it.
It is about learning how to find freedom from our identities agenda of habitually micromanaging all of our senses in order to maintain it's own fiefdom.
If it is Zen that interests you, then you'll find no Zen teacher encouraging the siddhes you are describing. Siddhes do arrive for some at different times in practice but in Zen they are addressed no differently than any other phenomena.
In Gassho
Howard
There is an interesting conversation between the Buddha and an astral traveller which concluded that the answers are not to be found in out of body experiences. They lie within ourselves.
The truth is not to be found out there but in "here" through meditation.
@jeffery - oh no worries about hallucinations and delusions. The verbal diarrhea ie verbal abuse is real. You see, I live with narcissists.
Thank you all
@dakini - thanks for introducing the term 'astral projection'. It's new to me. I just checked it out. The 'shift' doesn't happen right after I wake nor after I go to bed. Always, I am fully aware. Times when this happens without me intending it, are peaceful moments. And with the shift, I watch my peaceful self and I experienced more peace, quiet joy. In difficult times, I 'make it happen'.
@mockeymind - thanks for sharing your knowledge. Hmm, I wouldn't describe my experience as a 'sensory indulgence or pleasure'. The experience is peace. Total peace without judgement of the painful suffering situation...
'be careful when dealing with matters of the mind' - with or without intention, I have never move away from this out and up "position", never 'walked away, left the room, floated around'. Never thought of it at all. Now that I'm at it, I have no wish to try to achieve anything. I just want to find out and learn more about how, why, what is happening. Should I let it happen, or should I fight to not let it happen... Is it bad.. Deep down inside me, I feel it's safe as I'm asking myself how can experiencing peace be something bad...
@how - "observe, not act upon. allow the flow to arrive and depart without graphing after it, ignoring it or rejecting it" in other words, embrace it and be cool about it?
@pegembara - thank you for the 'interesting conversation'. I understand what it means. Yet, when I'm up there I 'see better'. I see 'more truth' as in, that other party is in pain and this pain is expressed as abuse unto me.
Thank you all, again
You make the apparent distinction of two "me"s....
I trust you realise it's all you. There IS no separation in you...
@federica - yes, I am fully aware both are me. One is me in the situation. The other is me, up there, untouched by the situation, observing the situation unfolding, without judgement.
I had an Internet friend who as a child was beaten quite sadistically by her father. This is where she first learned to create a distanced self or astral projection if you prefer.
Sounds more and more like survival dissociation.
@lobster - It does seem so. Except that I didn't learn it or created it. It just happened one evening in the park, as I mentioned in my earlier post.
Visualization is with intention - which is not.
You don't have to learn it. She did it spontaneously to 'escape' and later found it had a name.
@ lobster - Thank you
Thanks very much for all your answers. Gratitude.
Namaste
Zenni