A path to Truth ?
nottwo
Explorer
If you can not find the truth right where you are,
where else do you expect to find it? Dogen Zenji
Throughout theological history we have been assured by religious leaders that if we perform certain rituals, repeat certain prayers or mantras, conform to certain patterns, suppress our desires, control our thoughts, sublimate our passions, limit our appetites and refrain from sexual indulgence, we shall, after sufficient torture of the mind and body, find something beyond this little life.
And that is what millions of so-called religious people have done through the ages, either in isolation, going off into the desert or into the mountains or a cave or wandering from village to village with a begging bowl, or, in a group, joining a monastery, forcing their minds to conform to an established pattern.
But a tortured mind, a broken mind, a mind which wants to escape from all turmoil, which has denied the outer world and been made dull through dis- cipline and conformity - such a mind, however long it seeks, will find only according to its own distortion.
Krishnamurti
can one have a path to the present moment ???
Comments
"But you already are?" - guru
"How can I be? I'm bound by my mind?" -person
"Show me where you are bound?" - guru
"Thank you!(laughter)" - person
the sankrit term "neti neti" is interesting
It's called the Neuropathway....
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Trungpa said Krishnamurti was an egomaniac based on their time on TV together IIRC
Jeffery perhaps if nothing else, it shows Trungpa state of mind
right here if you are interested.
perhaps you would like to explain where in that video clip "Krishnamurti was an egomaniac"
One thing stands out that Krishnamurti talks the whole time and has no interest in a dialogue. I'm not sure if Trungpa really called him an ego maniac.. not sure where I heard that. I think Krishnamurti wanted a follow up video together and CTR did not want to do that again and thus said K was an ego maniac.
We are all egomaniacs ....
Here's a link: An old, pretentious Krishnamurti talks on and on at a young, deferential Trungpa. VIDEO. (<-- text not mine rather from link)
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2008/09/an-old-pretentious-krishnamurti-talks-on-and-on-at-a-young-deferential-trungpa-video/
re "egomaniac"personally Jeffery, i kinda question any so called "spiritual " master or his followers that resort to character assassination and name calling,,
we are all hypocrites, perhaps
yeah that is name calling. I'm not sure of CTR ever said it, but someone did. still even if they were not gurus talking if they were just guests on a talk show I would think it odd to act like K. He never showed any interest in a dialogue. i wouldn't want to meet with him again either.
If you can not find the truth right where you are,
where else do you expect to find it? Dogen Zenji
we can't avoid the present moment!
But we more often than not miss it....
how can we miss it? whatever we do it is there. even if we are daydreaming that itself is still the present moment. right? or does 'present moment' refer to meditative technique? or even a so called 'successfully applied' technique?
We are in the 'habit' of avoiding the present moment that's what I mean by miss it @Jeffrey
"When we are aware that what we are aware of, what we are experiencing, is not all that could be experienced; and that what we know, believe, understand , remember, etc., is not all that we could know, believe, and so on – in that moment we are conscious of abstracting. When we are aware that what we say about someone, something, some situation, results from our nervous system’s processing of limited amount of information about that person, thing or situation, we are conscious of abstracting. When we are aware that our maps ( what we see, hear, know, believe, understand; our opinions, plans, expectations, and so on) are not the territories they are maps of, we are conscious of abstracting. When we are aware that words are not the thing-processes they represent, we are conscious of abstracting. From this non-all awareness we are less likely to be shocked when factors ignored left out come into play" Milton Dawes
I read a yoga wall poster that said:
If you are anxious you are living in the future
If you are depressed you are living in the past.
If you are at peace you are living in the present moment.
I think it is actually odd to say we 'missed' the present moment. Who missed it?
I think of Jon Kabatt Zinn and I think he means to notice the present moment.
So you could say 'miss it' in that we didn't appreciate it. But no I don't think there is ever any other moment than the present moment.
There's no time like the present, but how often do we (does ones awareness) pay it some mind ?
I like to say that I am present in the present moment.
Because when I am with my thoughts, I am not with me in the here and the now.
I think it is interesting to think of what we mean by that. For that line of thinking there has to be someone who notices something and then calls that the present moment. It sounds like it is relient on a thought 'here it is' which is just an arising thought.
Is it truly someone who has something (a present moment)?
Yet at the same time 'mindfulness of the present moment' does refer to an experience. I know what someone is talking about. It just seems odd the duality of awareness noticing all of the sudden 'here I am mindful'.
Sciences suggest that the mind reacts from 1-30 seconds prior to us being conscious of it ,,is the "present" then an illusion
Jeffrey good question,, perhaps the present moment is when the observed is "one" with the observer,a state of no comparison ,what do you think
This might help shed some light @Jeffrey...
"Awareness is fundamentally non conceptual-before thinking splits experience into subject and object.It is Empty and so can contain everything, including thought. It is Boundless. And amazingly it is intrinsically Knowing"
And this...
"Every moment is a moment of events and no moment passes by without an event. One can not notice a moment without noticing events taking place in that moment. Therefore the moment one tries to pay bare attention to is the present moment !"
@shoshin - "Every moment is a moment of events and no moment passes by without an event. One can not notice a moment without noticing events taking place in that moment. Therefore the moment one tries to pay bare attention to is the present moment !"
do you think that is what people talking about 'be present' mean? I think they just mean they are not day dreaming, right? They mean they are noticing their thougts and senses. like you realize 'oh yeah I am meditating I should feel my breath'.
I think observer is always one with the observed. We don't think 'oh no I can prove it is me and outside'. it is deep rooted patterns (I guess??) and we do not say 'oh I think it is me/experience' and then easily convinced of non-duality otherwise once we crack a book on Buddhism. I do not understand how one 'learns' non-duality.
And when you are present in the present moment, thoughts of fear, anger, despair... can't bring you down.
@Zenni I don't see that. I think I can have fear, anger, and despair even in the moment. Someone with a chemical imbalance or a hardship such as bad family life cannot switch off anger, fear, and despair just by noticing the present moment. They may be aided by being in the present moment rather than worrying about the future but it does not dispel fear, anger, and despair.
Absolute reality is there is just that. No person, no one choosing, no one being mindful.
Awareness just moves into 'here' rather than belief of thoughts. Nobody chose anything.
Well that's 'my' experience so far.
Just recently I'm beginning to thank the universe every time awareness of the present comes back. I think it builds in momentum when you do this.
@Earthninja I think we can only notice the present moment. We cannot get a different moment than the present moment. It's all just thinking. But yes we can indeed notice that it is the present moment. We might have a thought 'oh I should be mindful'. And then we notice whatever is in experience.
Interesting thought. Would we be able to go out of the present moment? we can 'come to ourselves' and notice the present. But can we notice the present and then say 'oh I am going to daydream'. Can we make ourselves withdraw from the present? Or can we only us our willpower to bring attention but not recede from attention.
I think the problem is @Jeffrey we are having to use conventional means to try to explain the ultimate, that which is beyond words/concepts...
However. they (words/concepts) are the only tools we have at our disposal and their overuse and or misuse can often lead to shonky practice (leading the practitioner up the garden path-so to speak) ... They are a two edged sword cause> condition >effect ...
I don't think it is beyond words and concepts. For me at least. In my understanding I am quite clear about what is happening.
I believe it is possible.
I "walked" the journey with XX for 2 years. XX had clinical depression.
Everyday, I'd plan something, I said to XX, "since you're on medical leave and there's much free time, shall we.... A stroll in the park, a walk on the beach...
I'd get XX involve in anything I can think of.. Small ways. No pestering. Waiting for receptive moments...
And there were many "little" moments where I saw XX was present. The "hopeless face" was transformed and I saw peace.
For myself, I used to use "switch off". But "thought" has its ways of switching on again.
Now when I feel fear and sadness, I focus on breathing ... and I'd "realised" those are my feelings, those are my thoughts.
@Zenni I definitely think mindfulness can help with ailments including mood stress. I'm not sure how far it goes though. My guess is that XX (and the human race) still has suffering that is/was not fully addressed. Also I am sure there were other therapeutic factors in his/her case. Just having someone like yourself care about you might be even more significant in healing than mindfulness.
Before Clinical depression, XX was a confident person.
During depression, XX felt hopeless. Total abandonment. Meals, hygiene... AND Suicidal....
Now, XX is fully recovered, back to the same confident person!!
(During the two years, there was psychiatrist and oral medication)
I think I understand what you're saying.
I can be typing away now and still feel a heavy sad weight in my chest at the same time.
And I'm thinking I am already in the here and now, and I am focussing on this writing so I am definitely present, then why am I still suffering.
I used to feel like this and wonder why.
The self like all conditioned things is a constant state of flux
"Transient alas are all component things
Subject are they to birth and then decay;
Having gained birth to death the life flux swings;
Bliss truly dawns when unrest dies away!”
Moment to moment awareness (a sense of non judgemental knowing) as all things rise and depart ...
The daydream @Jeffrey consists of concepts, thoughts, feelings etc, which also rise and depart .... It is possible Awareness of this, accompanied by a sense of knowing creates the illusion of experience for the fluctuating self to ponder/grasp at...
by 'this' you mean acknowledging that 'nothing lasts forever'?
Yes in a sense... There is a sense of 'knowing' the impermanent nature of things, that more often than not the conditioned self has a tendency to deny...
However if one has had the non experience of anatta , then instead of fear, there is a great sense comfort and or relief that comes with this intrinsic knowledge...
I hope this make sense @Jeffrey, the more I have to think about it the more contradictory it begins to sound...
"... that more often than not the conditioned self has a tendency to deny..."
And more often than not (when in negative) one even "bask" in the negative and the only thing left is the capability of... wondering why me, lamenting and feel sorry for oneself. I was there.
When one "realise" that this is happening, one can mindfully take a deep breath and come back to the present moment and start mindful breathing and follow the breath, "breathing in the good eg nature's providence, and breathing out the bad (feelings and thoughts).
Namaste
FMT: So if emptiness and consciousness are part of the same thing and we live in a world of Purusha (consciousness/emptiness) and Prarkiti (manifestation) where duality is expressed, what is the relationship between duality and nonduality?
SW: There is no such thing as duality and nonduality. Nonduality and duality only exist in language. Language is binary and dualistic by nature.
FMT: So it exists only in language.
SW: Wittgenstein called it a language game. Nonduality is a concept which does not exist outside of language. People are trying to understand it with the vehicle of a concept. There is no such thing as nonduality, how could there be? It requires another perceiver. Narajunas basic principle is that there is no unity, there is no similarity. There are no differences; nothing arises, nothing subsides. Nothing is similar, nothing is different. There is no unity; there is no duality, prior to language. It is a language game.
Pot calling the kettle black?
@SpinyNorman yes but you can watch the video yourself and see that Krishnamurti talks the whole time ha! I'm not sure why I would call Trungpa an ego maniac. He just gave teachings.
@Shoshin I don't find it hard to know things are impermanent. I find it hard to avoid clinging to them. Confusion itself in understanding if we are mind or body is an example of not self. The confusion itself is not-self as the experience of confusion comes from not finding. So confusion is a good sign.
The second NT is a biggy @Jeffrey " We suffer because we cling to the world" we have the conditioned fear of the unknown ie, "What will happen to "me" if "I" let go ?" ...I ( the convenient analytical device ) think that understanding/knowing anatta from the inside out (beyond the intellect) is the key that helps to weaken the grip so to speak...
Do you understand anatta? For me I have moments of thought but it isn't like a switch went off and I understood it.
I think I mentioned this before in another thread...
This understanding/sense of knowing is like the background music playing as "I" go about daily life, it's always there and the volume is 'self' adjusting, the stronger the sense of self the weaker the music in the background-the weaker the sense of self the louder the music, hence why "I" continually need "cushion time" to work on the volume control...
So what is the background music? Is it like a good feeling that is there when the conditional 'selfing' is weak?