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@genkaku said:
And I'm making progress getting upset ....
Interesting comment... if it is sarcasm, then I'm learning your personality. If you really think getting upset is progress, then I may start discussion on this in another thread, it may be good.
@karasti said:
I most certainly do not poke people to upset them or any other such thing. I also would never interrupt an event to hurt someone. I bring it up here(on a discussion board...where I assume it was brought up to share and consider different views) to share what I think and how I feel about it. Not to point a finger to anyone who thinks differently and say they are wrong. I'm not saying my view is right. It is just what I have been thinking as of late. I had similar thoughts along a different vein on Mother's Day a couple of weeks ago.
It is just a general overview of war and military and it's necessity and what is used to sell people on it. It has nothing to do with the hundreds of thousands of individuals who are killed or wounded as a result of those things. Considering all those who have died (and like I said, my grandpa died as a result of his service to his country, too, just not in combat. He died a horrible, suffering death in 1984 over many months and was never recognized until just this past year) the day we are thinking about them all seems like a time to discuss why they died, and if we can do anything to prevent similar deaths in the future. Obviously, we don't have control over that much on an individual level. It is just something to think about and consider. I most certainly don't think there is a right or wrong view on it.
Thanks for sharing that, I'm understanding where you are coming from, and couldn't agree more with "if we can do anything to prevent similar deaths in the future"
@Telly03; It was not my intent to be pushy or offensive. I look to my sons and see very little in my country's actions in the last 60 some odd years that would be worth their deaths.
My grandfather fought with the 1st Mar. Div. in the south Pacific. Guadalcanal, Cape Gloucester, and Peleliu. He was never boastful. He told me for years he would wake screaming drenched in sweat every night. The last conversation I had with him regarding the war, about two months before he died, in which he expressed his deep regret " for what I did" crying. What he did was shoot Japanese tanks on an airfield. After the fact they wandered near where these Japanese were killed and he saw the results of his actions. He wasn't new to fighting, this being his third engagement. This was 50 years after the fact.
Our current ideas neglect to take into account how the training and kill rates among individual soldiers has dramatically escalated. Since WW2 our training of our young men has become one of reflexive shooting and training with human shaped targets. This has decreased the inclination to not fire at another person. Since its inception PTSD has risen dramatically. Kill rates in WW2 among individuals were from 30-40% rising to 80-90's by the time of Vietnam. We lost as many men to suicide as we did to the Vietcong.I recommend "On Killing" http://www.amazon.com/On-Killing-Psychological-Learning-Society/dp/0316330116/ref=pd_cp_14_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=05KT4FFFKZVK3E285V6K
The idea that this is all done for freedom boggles my mind.
My wife's grandfather died at Stalingrad fighting in Hitler's 6th Army. Was that for freedom, defense of country, love of Fatherland? Or was it just pointless and in vain?
After 3 or more million people were slaughtered by the Nazis in the death camps (not to mention their medical experiments or their takeovers of country after country and the war campaign against London), how can you even question whether fighting against Hitler was necessary?
How often have we spoken passionately in favor of the right for gay marriage, when Hitler's solution to the issue was Zyklon B?
if it is sarcasm, then I'm learning your personality. If you really think getting upset is progress, then I may start discussion on this in another thread, it may be good.
No shit. What tax bracket are u in?? Lets talk numbers about how much i pay for this freedom. and how much your payin for this free lifestyle. Better than alot of countries??? Hell ya. For alot of reasons. But that doesnt mean all discussions stop about how to proceed with this country in the future and whats going on here. Domestic relations need to be a priority...imo....and less money on defense. The Budgets speak for themselves....and then some. Lets talk Vet spending....programs and where that money is. Support.
@vinlyn What are you talking about?
My wife's grandfather was a German who fought in the German army. I was trying to make a comment on the idea that seems to pervade most nations:
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori-"It is sweet and right to die for your country."
I use him as an example to call that very idea into question.
The Germans killed over 6 million Jews gypsies and other "undesirables. They lost more than 8 million of their own people as well as being responsible for the death of about 24 million Russians. For what? His death was pointless and he died serving a monstrous machine, I am sure believing lies about nationalism, country, defense , the flag ect ad nauseum.
Did I raise the question whether we should have fought the Nazis or not? I don't think I did. Even if we hadn't their régime would have been taken down by the Soviets, by 44 they were a true juggernaut and the German army had bled itself out.
I would question our very reasons for the wars we engage in now, what is our intention, what do hope to achieve,? Do we have an ethical or moral basis for what we do?
Or do we just wave the flag and quash our thinking?
Maybe we need to live a life of comforting illusions, because the results of what we do, up close, are way too gritty and disturbing.
I thought this and the preceding comment from @Telly03 both demonstrated personal jihad/integrity/healing at work.
We have all been touched by war in different ways. For some getting angry over its inanity is something to face, for others allowing that anger passage is part of a healing.
War is not a healthy obsessive behavour that mostly males indulge in. Unless we are deeply wounded, immature or in denial we all regret lost potential.
Most societies seem to indulge, remember, celebrate and romanticise war on one level whilst trying to come to terms with its aftermath.
It is perhaps fitting that silence and reflection is introduced during official remembrances/memorial services ...
Comments
Interesting comment... if it is sarcasm, then I'm learning your personality. If you really think getting upset is progress, then I may start discussion on this in another thread, it may be good.
Thanks for sharing that, I'm understanding where you are coming from, and couldn't agree more with "if we can do anything to prevent similar deaths in the future"
My father told me that being in the Royal Air Force turned him into a pacifist.
@Telly03; It was not my intent to be pushy or offensive. I look to my sons and see very little in my country's actions in the last 60 some odd years that would be worth their deaths.
My grandfather fought with the 1st Mar. Div. in the south Pacific. Guadalcanal, Cape Gloucester, and Peleliu. He was never boastful. He told me for years he would wake screaming drenched in sweat every night. The last conversation I had with him regarding the war, about two months before he died, in which he expressed his deep regret " for what I did" crying. What he did was shoot Japanese tanks on an airfield. After the fact they wandered near where these Japanese were killed and he saw the results of his actions. He wasn't new to fighting, this being his third engagement. This was 50 years after the fact.
Our current ideas neglect to take into account how the training and kill rates among individual soldiers has dramatically escalated. Since WW2 our training of our young men has become one of reflexive shooting and training with human shaped targets. This has decreased the inclination to not fire at another person. Since its inception PTSD has risen dramatically. Kill rates in WW2 among individuals were from 30-40% rising to 80-90's by the time of Vietnam. We lost as many men to suicide as we did to the Vietcong.I recommend "On Killing" http://www.amazon.com/On-Killing-Psychological-Learning-Society/dp/0316330116/ref=pd_cp_14_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=05KT4FFFKZVK3E285V6K
The idea that this is all done for freedom boggles my mind.
My wife's grandfather died at Stalingrad fighting in Hitler's 6th Army. Was that for freedom, defense of country, love of Fatherland? Or was it just pointless and in vain?
After 3 or more million people were slaughtered by the Nazis in the death camps (not to mention their medical experiments or their takeovers of country after country and the war campaign against London), how can you even question whether fighting against Hitler was necessary?
How often have we spoken passionately in favor of the right for gay marriage, when Hitler's solution to the issue was Zyklon B?
@Telly03 -- It wasn't sarcasm.
They do say that the first causality of any war is the truth....But I think that's all "propaganda"
Freedom is not free.
No shit. What tax bracket are u in?? Lets talk numbers about how much i pay for this freedom. and how much your payin for this free lifestyle. Better than alot of countries??? Hell ya. For alot of reasons. But that doesnt mean all discussions stop about how to proceed with this country in the future and whats going on here. Domestic relations need to be a priority...imo....and less money on defense. The Budgets speak for themselves....and then some. Lets talk Vet spending....programs and where that money is. Support.
@vinlyn What are you talking about?
My wife's grandfather was a German who fought in the German army. I was trying to make a comment on the idea that seems to pervade most nations:
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori-"It is sweet and right to die for your country."
I use him as an example to call that very idea into question.
The Germans killed over 6 million Jews gypsies and other "undesirables. They lost more than 8 million of their own people as well as being responsible for the death of about 24 million Russians. For what? His death was pointless and he died serving a monstrous machine, I am sure believing lies about nationalism, country, defense , the flag ect ad nauseum.
Did I raise the question whether we should have fought the Nazis or not? I don't think I did. Even if we hadn't their régime would have been taken down by the Soviets, by 44 they were a true juggernaut and the German army had bled itself out.
I would question our very reasons for the wars we engage in now, what is our intention, what do hope to achieve,? Do we have an ethical or moral basis for what we do?
Or do we just wave the flag and quash our thinking?
Maybe we need to live a life of comforting illusions, because the results of what we do, up close, are way too gritty and disturbing.
A huge chunk of our defense budget should go back to the Vets. Much more than currently does.
This is all too common of a theme in the US:
FREEDOM!!!!!!!!
Isn't free
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/15/iraq-death-toll_n_4102855.html
What a small tent we have. Smaller even than the Republican's tent.
Indeed.
I thought this and the preceding comment from @Telly03 both demonstrated personal jihad/integrity/healing at work.
We have all been touched by war in different ways. For some getting angry over its inanity is something to face, for others allowing that anger passage is part of a healing.
War is not a healthy obsessive behavour that mostly males indulge in. Unless we are deeply wounded, immature or in denial we all regret lost potential.
Most societies seem to indulge, remember, celebrate and romanticise war on one level whilst trying to come to terms with its aftermath.
It is perhaps fitting that silence and reflection is introduced during official remembrances/memorial services ...