Volitional formations in the '12 links'

Jeffrey

with ignorance as condition the volitional formations arise
Dependent on volitional formations consciousness arises.
Dependent on consciousness mentality-materiality arises.
Dependent on mentality-materiality the six sense faculties arise.
Dependent on the six sense faculties contact arises.
Dependent on contact feeling arises.
Dependent on feeling craving arises.
Dependent on craving clinging arises.
Dependent on clinging existence arises.
Dependent on existence birth arises.
Dependent on birth, ageing, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair arise.
Such, the Buddha says, is the arising of the whole mass of suffering.

http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/suchIs.htm

Can someone say what they think 'volitional formations' are?

anataman

It's what you desire to be - Volition: YOUR DESIRE

David

Consciousness is caused by desire?

I'd think that desire would be a by-product of consciousness, not the other way around.

person

I was just listening to some dharma talks on the 12 links if I remember I think he said volitional formations was immature (or some word like that) karma. He also said name and form ( I think mentality-materiality above) are the literal embryo of a being.

http://www.phuntsok.org/library/series/Intro-to-Buddhism/

bookworm

I'm still not sure, it is also translated as kamma formations, isn't it wholesome or unwholesome volition of body speech and mind?

genie

@ourself said:
Consciousness is caused by desire?

I'd think that desire would be a by-product of consciousness, not the other way around.

Desire must be more deep-rooted than that, else as conscious beings we would have ended it a long time ago. So one can say it precedes even what we call consciousness (which is why it's so hard to overcome).

pegembara

These formations can be considered as rudimentary thought forms, little bubbles. Many of them survive and take on (or we 'give' them) associative labels, names, values - there is the arising of perception - they assume an identity [see: nama-rupa]. As sankhara (forming) these 'bubbles' take on the potential of being 'formed.' The things of the world are just as they are, they have no names, no value. When we are born we have no name, no value. Through avijja arises sankhara and when these sankharic 'bubbles' are given heed - there is this kamma-forming - the little bubbles don't just go 'pop,' they persist and this persistance conditions the arising of viññana (consciousness).

http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/teachings/d-sank.htm

DairyLama

@Jeffrey said:> Can someone say what they think 'volitional formations' are?

The nidanas are "defined" in SN12.2 and describing sankharas it says:
"And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html

sova

I'm gonna read more on the topic from some Tibetan sources to get a better picture of how it all fits in but I'm tempted to point out that they are all links, so if you know what the surrounding links are, maybe it will help to know the link itself.

DairyLama

You'll probably find different interpretations in different schools.

lobster

Excellent post and question @Jeffrey we could almost be on a Buddhist forum ...

In the context of your link it is about discipline or for the unskilfull heedless and ignorant its lack.

Will power through the concerted effort and intention to do good. In the Hinayana this means implementing beneficial karmic choices. In Tantra it is the blessing of a teacher, lineage connection and personal attunement.

Discipline in this sense means becoming a disciple or refuge taker in The Buddha as a principle.

Most of us, especially us lesser wheelies (Robin Reliant Dharma anyone?) are in dire need of constant returning to the Buddha's road map. We take the sangha as helpful exemplars.

The bad choices exist ... well we are all too human ... but the positive volition can be encouraged in ourselves and others choices ...

DairyLama

@pegembara said: These formations can be considered as rudimentary thought forms, little bubbles. Many of them survive and take on (or we 'give' them) associative labels, names, values - there is the arising of perception - they assume an identity [see: nama-rupa]. As sankhara (forming) these 'bubbles' take on the potential of being 'formed.' The things of the world are just as they are, they have no names, no value. When we are born we have no name, no value. Through avijja arises sankhara and when these sankharic 'bubbles' are given heed - there is this kamma-forming - the little bubbles don't just go 'pop,' they persist and this persistance conditions the arising of viññana (consciousness).
http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/teachings/d-sank.htm

What does "conditions the arising of consciousness" mean here, practically speaking?

David

@genie;

What you suggested seems to imply the universe runs on desire even if it isn't aware of it.

It makes sense in light of natural selection but the implications could be vast.

sova

@SpinyNorman said:
What does "conditions the arising of consciousness" mean here, practically speaking?

If you look through a yellow crystal ball at something red, you will see orange

@jeffrey "Formative Action"

from
http://www.shambhala.com/how-karma-works-2686.html
Check it out, very good.

Formative action is a potter making pots and also
sometimes the potter’s wheel. The potter turns the wheel
and produces different kinds of pots. Formative action is of
different kinds—virtuous, nonvirtuous, and unfluctuating.
These actions result in the different kinds of rebirth.

Earthninja

The interpretation I've gathered is volitional formations is based around karma. The need for the being to keep experiencing drives the next life.

This is all based on us clinging to this life. If we let go completely or realise there never was anything holding on then it makes sense it all stops.

DairyLama

@ourself said: Consciousness is caused by desire? I'd think that desire would be a by-product of consciousness, not the other way around.

I think the traditional view would be that craving for ( continued ) existence leads to rebirth and the re-occurrence of consciousness.

Victorious

@Jeffrey said:
Can someone say what they think 'volitional formations' are?

in the strict sense
Volitional formations are better named voitional fabrications or constructions. Because it is about something we do or rather create (i.e fabricate or construct)

These are divided into verbal, bodily and mental fabrication. The definitions are a bit misleading

in this sutta

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html

fabrications are defined as thus:

These three fabrications, friend Visakha: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications.

But what are bodily fabrications? What are verbal fabrications? What are mental fabrications?

In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications.

It is better to understand the above examples as being only examples and not the entire definition.

Read the sutta to get an understanding of the term fabrication. For instance the Noble Eight-fold path itself is fabricated. (we constructed/created it)

In short everything we experience(are conscious of) and put a value on is fabricated or constructed by us.

How can that be? Since the 12 nidanas are not seperate! They describe the arising of the selfidentity and how it is fabricated/constructed and the self identity revolves around constructing the items in the world and the world itself. constructing the self and constructing the world are the same process. ( not per see but in our minds ).

Keep this in mind when trying to understand the rest of the steps. It applies to those too.
Trying to understand the nidanas as a series of event will only cut it so far and at length make you confused. It is better to view the the nidanas as a three dimensional stick puzzle where all pieces are needed to construct the puzzle and keep all pieces in place.

That is in essence a practical way to understand volitional formation in the context of dependent coarising.

Cheers
Victor

DairyLama

@bookworm said:> I'm still not sure, it is also translated as kamma formations, isn't it wholesome or unwholesome volition of body speech and mind?

SN12.2 describes sankharas like this: "And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications."

I'm still not clear how consciousness arises in dependence on fabrications, given that in DO consciousness is described in the usual 6-fold way. The idea of fabrications "shaping" consciousness isn't supported by the sutttas because the conditionality described in DO is one of necessary conditions. Also this "shaping" approach doesn't make sense when applied to the rest of the nidanas. So I don't know.

I've seen many attempts to explain DO but still haven't come across one I find convincing.

pegembara

@Victorious said:
Victor

Self and the world are fabrications/constructions. When DO is penetrated this process is fully understood.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

Kaccayanagotta Sutta

"I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."

Rohitassa Sutta

"You take the blue pill, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes."

In the beginning ...... created the heavens and the earth. ....... the earth was formless and empty.

Genesis

DairyLama

@Victorious said: How can that be? Since the 12 nidanas are not seperate! They describe the arising of the self-identity and how it is fabricated/constructed and the self identity revolves around constructing the items in the world and the world itself. constructing the self and constructing the world are the same process. ( not per see but in our minds ).

The nidanas are an elaboration of the Second Noble Truth and are described as a sequence of necessary conditions. What you seem to be describing is the function of the sankhara aggregate, which isn't described in the same way as the sankhara nidana.
Sankhara has a range of meanings in the suttas, so it's not straightforward.

Victorious

@SpinyNorman said:

Seems pretty straight forward to me so far.
If ever I feel a bump I will let you know.

/Victor

David

@SpinyNorman said:
I think the traditional view would be that craving for ( continued ) existence leads to rebirth and the re-occurrence of consciousness.

Isn't that akin to wishful thinking fulfillment?

Like craving ice cream and getting another scoop?

It seems like a lot of negativity as if many writing the ancient suttas were doing so from the point of view of a concentration camp.

DairyLama

@ourself said:

It's part of how tanha ( craving ) is described in the suttas, a craving for ( further ) becoming or existence. You can look at that as being in the moment or across lifetimes.

David

Ok, but then craving for non-becoming would also be unbeneficial so the answer would seem to be to let it be or to live the illusion while knowing the reality.

The problem with letting things be is that it raises the question of why we are taking refuge in the first place.

We want to live in accordance with awakening... For most of us that takes effort and practice.

That isn't letting it be... Is it?

David

I wonder if I'm actually nit-picking too much right now.

federica

Ya think...?