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Yes @roots, I was amazed at what they were saying. It gave me a sense of hope and inspiration.
Some news media in America are what is the word ... shameless. They make free speech into a subtle mind enslavement. Shame on them ... time to bypass their agendas and sponsors.
It all boils down to that instinctive, ignored drive to identify with a tribe, doesn't it? Our group of monkeys need to defend our territory and females from that other tribe over there. The problem with instinctive behavior is, the mind manufactures a reality that doesn't exist, then insists that is normal and right no matter how insane their actions appear to people outside the tribe. Once he became convinced that his tribe (white Christian Americans) is under attack by other tribes (foreigners and blacks and liberal turncoats) then what he did became an act of bravery, waking his tribe up to the danger. And his tribe is under attack, but by the forces of change, not people. You can't shoot change, though.
For all our vaunted intelligence, the built-in behavior and way of thinking that allowed us to take over the world as a species remains in control. And we're no different. For some of us, we have managed to identify with "the Tribe of Humanity" (we used to call it the Tribe of Man, but somehow the women got invited to join the tribe along the way).
@Cinorjer said:
It all boils down to that instinctive, ignored drive to identify with a tribe, doesn't it? Our group of monkeys need to defend our territory and females from that other tribe over there. The problem with instinctive behavior is, the mind manufactures a reality that doesn't exist, then insists that is normal and right no matter how insane their actions appear to people outside the tribe. Once he became convinced that his tribe (white Christian Americans) is under attack by other tribes (foreigners and blacks and liberal turncoats) then what he did became an act of bravery, waking his tribe up to the danger. And his tribe is under attack, but by the forces of change, not people. You can't shoot change, though.
For all our vaunted intelligence, the built-in behavior and way of thinking that allowed us to take over the world as a species remains in control. And we're no different. For some of us, we have managed to identify with "the Tribe of Humanity" (we used to call it the Tribe of Man, but somehow the women got invited to join the tribe along the way).
Buddhists seem to like to say that they see the world for what it is.
So perhaps this tribalism is just something that needs to be accepted and dealt with, since it seems pretty unlikely that it's going to end.
Studying Criminology, most people who murder do NOT have a mental disorder - this, to me, has always said something terrifying about our countries general mental collective. Yes suffering is there, but not all who suffer kill - it definitely is a problem with culture that often we cannot even see because we are so immersed in it.
I think racism is a big problem in almost all of us, and it must come from our culture. I often feel some kind of negative thought or feeling arise in me even though I am a compassionate and liberal person with a very accepting, tolerant background and view of people. Logically I know any bad thought or feeling is unfounded and it upsets me that such things even arise in me. I feel like there is so much of the world that we just sponge up and it's hard to pull out the roots.
There is a difference in a psychologically recognized mental disorder and a "mental disorder" from a more philosophical level. I studied criminology and psychology. So yes, I understand that from a legal and psychological standpoint, people who do bad things aren't defined as mentally ill. That's not what I'm talking about when I say all those who kill have a mental defect. I'm talking about a different level, about living apart from our true nature, which western psychology doesn't even begin to touch on. But eastern psychology does. One of the better books that brings psychology and Buddhism together that I've read is "Thoughts without the Thinker." It is worth a read. A different perspective from what you learn studying in college.
We can guard our minds against a lot of the influences out there. We just don't. I don't. I know watching violence desensitizes us to it-but I'll gobble up every moment of Game of Thrones. I can't even tell you why, I just love the show. We absorb much more than what we simply see. So yes, part of it comes from our culture, some of it pretty difficult to limit. But a lot more of it that we can limit but choose not to because we talk ourselves into believing it doesn't impact us.
Tribalism does not necessarily have to end in violence. We can take care of the people who are close to us and live peacefully with neighbours. We do it all the time.
@Walker said:
Tribalism does not necessarily have to end in violence. We can take care of the people who are close to us and live peacefully with neighbours. We do it all the time.
Yes, very true, and in fact I think there are some very interesting aspects of tribalism. Why does one visit a foreign country? Usually to enjoy a different culture.
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
The first thing I saw in the headlines was "White man kills 9 black people". He looks like a high school kid to me.
I guess the media would play into the shooters hand since he wanted to stoke fires of racial hatred.
A person killed nine people for reasons based on ignorance and fear.
I think tribalism will be outgrown and outdated fairly soon and only recognized for nostalgic reasons.
I had a conversation with a native friend of mine the other day and he made an offhand comment about me stealing his land.
I had to remind him that I didn't steal any land and that even legally, I am only renting. I asked him how long his ancestors thought they could keep this land a secret from the rest of humanity?
I had to remind him that his own bloodline snaked through Mongolia and that there are no humans native to the Americas except by discovering it first.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@vinlyn said:Why does one visit a foreign country? Usually to enjoy a different culture.
Actually, if I'm honest, I'm exceptionally lucky in that I am, or have been a member of 3 different cultures; The Italian, French and British.
Knowing them as I do, I generally visit a foreign country for some much-needed sunshine and change of scenery....
Here's an example of tribalism that is sooooooooooooooooooo stupid. Right here in Colorado Springs this weekend a motorcycle group is going to hold a pig roast in defiance of Ramadan.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Back to the actual topic at hand....the recent act of terrorism could be seen as a state sponsored act of terrorism, when it comes to flying the flag issue... think about it...
You are correct about the history of Mormonism and Blacks. But making fun of Mitt Romney's underwear has nothing to do with Mormons and their relationship with African Americans. However, 3-5% of Mormons are Black (that seems to be about half a million). I wonder how that compares to the percentage of Buddhists who are Black? Really you're just trying to put down Mitt Romney (another example of tribalism, btw). It's lumping all Mormons into the same pot. The Mormons I have known were very fair minded about racial issues. What do you know of Mitt Romney's attitude specifically toward African Americans? He has actually called for an end to the state flying of the Confederate flag for many years.
While distasteful and inappropriate, no, I don't see flying the flag as an act of terrorism.
@vinlyn said:
You are correct about the history of Mormonism and Blacks. But making fun of Mitt Romney's underwear has nothing to do with Mormons and their relationship with African Americans. However, 3-5% of Mormons are Black (that seems to be about half a million). I wonder how that compares to the percentage of Buddhists who are Black? Really you're just trying to put down Mitt Romney (another example of tribalism, btw). It's lumping all Mormons into the same pot. The Mormons I have known were very fair minded about racial issues. What do you know of Mitt Romney's attitude specifically toward African Americans? He has actually called for an end to the state flying of the Confederate flag for many years.
While distasteful and inappropriate, no, I don't see flying the flag as an act of terrorism.
Yes, I've read that article previously. Romney made no attempt to appeal to Black voters. But, what did he do "against" Black voters? Are you really surprised that the first Black president got 90% of the Black vote? And, incidentally, quite a few Blacks feel that Barack Obama has let them down.
Now if you were criticizing Donald Trump for being racist, after listening to his speech the other day and the way he characterized Mexicans, I'd say you were right on track.
Now in regard to the terrorism issue, we diminish the concept of terrorism when we begin labeling everything terrorism. Within the past 24 hours, the Confederate flag above the S.C. capitol was shot at (the article I read sounded as if it had been shot down). A White South Carolinian stated it was an act of terrorism. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon of calling every distasteful and negative thing terrorism. It diminishes the concept.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
It diminishes the lives of those victim to terrorism (Think 911.)
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited June 2015
And could I suggest we quit referring to black citizens of the USA as 'African American' ?
What about Trinidadian American? Or Jamaican American? or even Tahitian American? Are they non-existent or exempt from being considered?
Black Citizens of the USA are Americans.
They didn't all originate from Africa, which is a Continent, not a Country.
I have a very good black American friend whose ancestry is Jamaican/Aboriginal mix, and he is constantly being referred to as an African American. It absolutely drives him nuts.
@federica said:
It diminishes the lives of those victim to terrorism (Think 911.)
Terrorism is terrorism no one have the monopoly on this word....
9.11 was an act of terrorism no body's denying this, and nor should we deny what happened after (and is continuing to happen), that is, more terrorism... Lest we forget
And my "State sponsored act of terrorism" is the state's approach to flying a flag that for many African American represent something 'terrible' in their past, The state big wigs knows full well what the flag represents ...
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Shoshin said: Terrorism is terrorism no one have the monopoly on this word....9.11 was an act of terrorism no body's denying this, and nor should we deny what happened after (and is continuing to happen), that is, more terrorism... Lest we forget
I hear some people referring to the vandalism of their cars (being keyed) or their lawn ornaments being vandalised, as terrorism.
So, why not narrow it down to what you consider terrorism to be?
With regards to the flag flying, no, I wouldn't call it terrorism. But I would call it an in-your-face attack of sorts on black people who have to live where that mentality is so accepted. As Stewart pointed out in the video, not only do black people see the confederate flag constantly, but even the street names are named for confederate generals who fought for the right to own slaves. All the signs (no pun intended) around black people in the south are reminders that they were, and still are, considered lesser people. That kind of breaking someone down is pretty relentless. It does some hefty damage to the psyche. Terrorism, perhaps not. I think much of the time the intent is missing. But it is an attack of sorts just the same and many thousands, even millions of people, completely ignore that fact.
In defense of Romney, he did call for the removal of the flag back in 2008. And we need to remember the background he's coming from. This is an organization that until two years ago was distributing literature to its youth recommending they marry within their racial group.
Change won't happen overnight. Steps that are taken to end discrimination should be applauded, however small they are. Actually, when you consider our history, we've made some giant leaps forward in the past couple generations. Let's hope that we continue in the right direction.
isn't that nuts? I was especially astounded that it came from a minor league affiliate of the LA Angels.
I never read the comments. I seriously can feel my IQ dropping if I do. I am pretty sure human evolution has slowed due to internet comments.
The one that got my goat was: "Please in the future have a bigger backbone. Or at least schedule this for later. Blaming you or other whites for what one white did in South Carolina is racist and caucasiaphobic."
is having a party a privilege? I didn't read where the idea is to get favor for whites (which they already have 'white privilege'. For me having a party has nothing to do with the 'white privileges'.
Having a party isn't a problem. Having a party to celebrate your "white-ness" is just in bad taste. Minority groups have gatherings to celebrate progress, to show people they aren't afraid, to show their presence. White people need to do no such thing. The presence of white (straight, Christian) people is always there, always in the face of anyone who doesn't fit the mold. White privilege is everywhere. It's the norm. It doesn't need to be celebrated. It hasn't achieved something, stood up or come out for something.
It's not even a party, with people gathered to celebrate their heritage. It's a baseball team whose major league affiliate is based in Los Angeles who sought to make fun of a very serious issue for a lot of people. That so many don't see it as a problem is part of the problem. White people in the US have never had to work for or overcome anything. Individuals, yes. As a group, no.
Thank you @Karasti. I couldn't quite figure how to explain it to Jeffrey.
At my school we always had international night. In addition to letting our students from foreign countries highlight their culture, our White students could also highlight their heritage (such as Irish or German or Italian, etc.). We also had special events for our foreign-born students to help them learn about American culture. For example, we had a real Thanksgiving dinner for them, where each of them would buddy up with an American student. We would always tell the story of the first Thanksgiving and then they would get a full turkey dinner and desert. We had an International Club, but I did not allow a "Korean Club" or a "Vietnamese Club", because the idea was to bring people together, not divide them.
^^^ It is sometimes not easy ... but well said. Closing down the hell realms is my long term plan. I iz ambitious!
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@genie said:Just like slavery disappeared, these demons will also disappear. Give it time. Rome wasn't built in a day. Have some faith in humanity.
So far it's taken approximately 1,009,491 days to build Rome. This is based on the traditional founding of the city (21 April 753 BCE), but we should also consider that the city has been sacked and rebuilt several times.
So, "Not in my lifetime" springs to mind...
I mean, when you consider how long 'humanity' has walked the earth, and just how long these conditions have existed, and how it's only recently that Consciousness has arisen in the minds of some.... How long do we have?
There are still barbaric and inhuman practices going on, globally. Rooting them all out and exposing them, eliminating them and changing minds.... well... History would seem to indicate that it's going to take more than a website discussion forum to navigate and effect a change...
Comments
Truly sad.
My heart breaks for these poor people.
But in his first court appearance - somehow, members of the victims families came forward with statements of forgiveness.
Thank goodness. Their compassion as a defense against the mongering of the media.
Yes @roots, I was amazed at what they were saying. It gave me a sense of hope and inspiration.
Some news media in America are what is the word ... shameless. They make free speech into a subtle mind enslavement. Shame on them ... time to bypass their agendas and sponsors.
It all boils down to that instinctive, ignored drive to identify with a tribe, doesn't it? Our group of monkeys need to defend our territory and females from that other tribe over there. The problem with instinctive behavior is, the mind manufactures a reality that doesn't exist, then insists that is normal and right no matter how insane their actions appear to people outside the tribe. Once he became convinced that his tribe (white Christian Americans) is under attack by other tribes (foreigners and blacks and liberal turncoats) then what he did became an act of bravery, waking his tribe up to the danger. And his tribe is under attack, but by the forces of change, not people. You can't shoot change, though.
For all our vaunted intelligence, the built-in behavior and way of thinking that allowed us to take over the world as a species remains in control. And we're no different. For some of us, we have managed to identify with "the Tribe of Humanity" (we used to call it the Tribe of Man, but somehow the women got invited to join the tribe along the way).
Buddhists seem to like to say that they see the world for what it is.
So perhaps this tribalism is just something that needs to be accepted and dealt with, since it seems pretty unlikely that it's going to end.
Just a thought.
Studying Criminology, most people who murder do NOT have a mental disorder - this, to me, has always said something terrifying about our countries general mental collective. Yes suffering is there, but not all who suffer kill - it definitely is a problem with culture that often we cannot even see because we are so immersed in it.
I think racism is a big problem in almost all of us, and it must come from our culture. I often feel some kind of negative thought or feeling arise in me even though I am a compassionate and liberal person with a very accepting, tolerant background and view of people. Logically I know any bad thought or feeling is unfounded and it upsets me that such things even arise in me. I feel like there is so much of the world that we just sponge up and it's hard to pull out the roots.
There is a difference in a psychologically recognized mental disorder and a "mental disorder" from a more philosophical level. I studied criminology and psychology. So yes, I understand that from a legal and psychological standpoint, people who do bad things aren't defined as mentally ill. That's not what I'm talking about when I say all those who kill have a mental defect. I'm talking about a different level, about living apart from our true nature, which western psychology doesn't even begin to touch on. But eastern psychology does. One of the better books that brings psychology and Buddhism together that I've read is "Thoughts without the Thinker." It is worth a read. A different perspective from what you learn studying in college.
We can guard our minds against a lot of the influences out there. We just don't. I don't. I know watching violence desensitizes us to it-but I'll gobble up every moment of Game of Thrones. I can't even tell you why, I just love the show. We absorb much more than what we simply see. So yes, part of it comes from our culture, some of it pretty difficult to limit. But a lot more of it that we can limit but choose not to because we talk ourselves into believing it doesn't impact us.
Philosophers have interpreted the world in various ways. Our task is to change it.
-Karl Marx
Ok, @Genie, so I guess that means you think we should eliminate tribalism.
So here in your assignment: forget the "rest of the world", just go out and eliminate tribalism within Buddhism.
Come back and report when you have accomplished that.
It is a collective effort.
Tribalism does not necessarily have to end in violence. We can take care of the people who are close to us and live peacefully with neighbours. We do it all the time.
Fine, @Genie, gather your minions. You still won't end tribalism even within Buddhism.
Yes, very true, and in fact I think there are some very interesting aspects of tribalism. Why does one visit a foreign country? Usually to enjoy a different culture.
The first thing I saw in the headlines was "White man kills 9 black people". He looks like a high school kid to me.
I guess the media would play into the shooters hand since he wanted to stoke fires of racial hatred.
A person killed nine people for reasons based on ignorance and fear.
I think tribalism will be outgrown and outdated fairly soon and only recognized for nostalgic reasons.
I had a conversation with a native friend of mine the other day and he made an offhand comment about me stealing his land.
I had to remind him that I didn't steal any land and that even legally, I am only renting. I asked him how long his ancestors thought they could keep this land a secret from the rest of humanity?
I had to remind him that his own bloodline snaked through Mongolia and that there are no humans native to the Americas except by discovering it first.
Actually, if I'm honest, I'm exceptionally lucky in that I am, or have been a member of 3 different cultures; The Italian, French and British.
Knowing them as I do, I generally visit a foreign country for some much-needed sunshine and change of scenery....
Here's an example of tribalism that is sooooooooooooooooooo stupid. Right here in Colorado Springs this weekend a motorcycle group is going to hold a pig roast in defiance of Ramadan.
That's what you call "Pig Ignorant".
With apologies to the pig.....
Interesting development -- Mitt Romney has called for South Carolina to stop flying the Confederate flag.
Is he the guy that wears magic underwear ?
Which has what, to do with the topic of the Confederate flag symbolising racism...?
To whom are you addressing that question, @Federica?
@Shoshin
From what I gather Mormons were not the best allies of the African Americans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_Mormonism#Black_membership
Back to the actual topic at hand....the recent act of terrorism could be seen as a state sponsored act of terrorism, when it comes to flying the flag issue... think about it...
You are correct about the history of Mormonism and Blacks. But making fun of Mitt Romney's underwear has nothing to do with Mormons and their relationship with African Americans. However, 3-5% of Mormons are Black (that seems to be about half a million). I wonder how that compares to the percentage of Buddhists who are Black? Really you're just trying to put down Mitt Romney (another example of tribalism, btw). It's lumping all Mormons into the same pot. The Mormons I have known were very fair minded about racial issues. What do you know of Mitt Romney's attitude specifically toward African Americans? He has actually called for an end to the state flying of the Confederate flag for many years.
While distasteful and inappropriate, no, I don't see flying the flag as an act of terrorism.
If you say so @vinlyn ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/therootdc/post/mitt-romneys-neglect-of-black-americans-failed-him-at-the-polls/2012/11/07/05331e2e-28f1-11e2-96b6-8e6a7524553f_blog.html
Perhaps this is because you're not African American @vinlyn ... (and I say this with all the implications that comes with such a statement)
Yes, I've read that article previously. Romney made no attempt to appeal to Black voters. But, what did he do "against" Black voters? Are you really surprised that the first Black president got 90% of the Black vote? And, incidentally, quite a few Blacks feel that Barack Obama has let them down.
Now if you were criticizing Donald Trump for being racist, after listening to his speech the other day and the way he characterized Mexicans, I'd say you were right on track.
Now in regard to the terrorism issue, we diminish the concept of terrorism when we begin labeling everything terrorism. Within the past 24 hours, the Confederate flag above the S.C. capitol was shot at (the article I read sounded as if it had been shot down). A White South Carolinian stated it was an act of terrorism. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon of calling every distasteful and negative thing terrorism. It diminishes the concept.
It diminishes the lives of those victim to terrorism (Think 911.)
And could I suggest we quit referring to black citizens of the USA as 'African American' ?
What about Trinidadian American? Or Jamaican American? or even Tahitian American? Are they non-existent or exempt from being considered?
Black Citizens of the USA are Americans.
They didn't all originate from Africa, which is a Continent, not a Country.
I have a very good black American friend whose ancestry is Jamaican/Aboriginal mix, and he is constantly being referred to as an African American. It absolutely drives him nuts.
Terrorism is terrorism no one have the monopoly on this word....
9.11 was an act of terrorism no body's denying this, and nor should we deny what happened after (and is continuing to happen), that is, more terrorism... Lest we forget
And my "State sponsored act of terrorism" is the state's approach to flying a flag that for many African American represent something 'terrible' in their past, The state big wigs knows full well what the flag represents ...
I hear some people referring to the vandalism of their cars (being keyed) or their lawn ornaments being vandalised, as terrorism.
So, why not narrow it down to what you consider terrorism to be?
With regards to the flag flying, no, I wouldn't call it terrorism. But I would call it an in-your-face attack of sorts on black people who have to live where that mentality is so accepted. As Stewart pointed out in the video, not only do black people see the confederate flag constantly, but even the street names are named for confederate generals who fought for the right to own slaves. All the signs (no pun intended) around black people in the south are reminders that they were, and still are, considered lesser people. That kind of breaking someone down is pretty relentless. It does some hefty damage to the psyche. Terrorism, perhaps not. I think much of the time the intent is missing. But it is an attack of sorts just the same and many thousands, even millions of people, completely ignore that fact.
Semantics.... Elephant in the room....
Terrorism =The unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and _intimidation in the pursuit of political aims_.
An interesting site http://www.terrorism-research.com/
In defense of Romney, he did call for the removal of the flag back in 2008. And we need to remember the background he's coming from. This is an organization that until two years ago was distributing literature to its youth recommending they marry within their racial group.
Change won't happen overnight. Steps that are taken to end discrimination should be applauded, however small they are. Actually, when you consider our history, we've made some giant leaps forward in the past couple generations. Let's hope that we continue in the right direction.
That's what they said about slavery.
I'll be here waiting.
We might not keep slaves in the western world anymore, but we're still left with the demons that it created.
Sadly racial prejudice & discrimination are its legacy....
This boggles the mind:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/20/us/caucasian-heritage-night/index.html
especially some of the responses!
isn't that nuts? I was especially astounded that it came from a minor league affiliate of the LA Angels.
I never read the comments. I seriously can feel my IQ dropping if I do. I am pretty sure human evolution has slowed due to internet comments.
The one that got my goat was: "Please in the future have a bigger backbone. Or at least schedule this for later. Blaming you or other whites for what one white did in South Carolina is racist and caucasiaphobic."
I don't see the reason why not have a caucasian festival. It sounds like it was a joke like a bad Christmas sweater party.
Do you really think Whites need more privileges?
is having a party a privilege? I didn't read where the idea is to get favor for whites (which they already have 'white privilege'. For me having a party has nothing to do with the 'white privileges'.
Nevermind.
Having a party isn't a problem. Having a party to celebrate your "white-ness" is just in bad taste. Minority groups have gatherings to celebrate progress, to show people they aren't afraid, to show their presence. White people need to do no such thing. The presence of white (straight, Christian) people is always there, always in the face of anyone who doesn't fit the mold. White privilege is everywhere. It's the norm. It doesn't need to be celebrated. It hasn't achieved something, stood up or come out for something.
It's not even a party, with people gathered to celebrate their heritage. It's a baseball team whose major league affiliate is based in Los Angeles who sought to make fun of a very serious issue for a lot of people. That so many don't see it as a problem is part of the problem. White people in the US have never had to work for or overcome anything. Individuals, yes. As a group, no.
Thank you @Karasti. I couldn't quite figure how to explain it to Jeffrey.
At my school we always had international night. In addition to letting our students from foreign countries highlight their culture, our White students could also highlight their heritage (such as Irish or German or Italian, etc.). We also had special events for our foreign-born students to help them learn about American culture. For example, we had a real Thanksgiving dinner for them, where each of them would buddy up with an American student. We would always tell the story of the first Thanksgiving and then they would get a full turkey dinner and desert. We had an International Club, but I did not allow a "Korean Club" or a "Vietnamese Club", because the idea was to bring people together, not divide them.
Just like slavery disappeared, these demons will also disappear. Give it time. Rome wasn't built in a day. Have some faith in humanity.
^^^ It is sometimes not easy ... but well said. Closing down the hell realms is my long term plan. I iz ambitious!
So far it's taken approximately 1,009,491 days to build Rome. This is based on the traditional founding of the city (21 April 753 BCE), but we should also consider that the city has been sacked and rebuilt several times.
So, "Not in my lifetime" springs to mind...
I mean, when you consider how long 'humanity' has walked the earth, and just how long these conditions have existed, and how it's only recently that Consciousness has arisen in the minds of some.... How long do we have?
There are still barbaric and inhuman practices going on, globally. Rooting them all out and exposing them, eliminating them and changing minds.... well... History would seem to indicate that it's going to take more than a website discussion forum to navigate and effect a change...