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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@misecmisc1 said:
before starting on the path to enlightenment, you have to believe there is something called enlightenment - if you do not believe there is enlightenment, why will you try to practice spiritual path?
You make the probably erroneous assumption that this isn why people begin to follow Buddhism.
I certainly, for my part, never embarked on following Buddhism because it would lead to enlightenment.
I began to follow Buddhism because the more I read about Suffering, and transcending suffering, the more it made sense.
This is why the Buddha began to teach. He even stated he wanted to teach about the origin of suffering, and the cessation of suffering.
He never even mentioned enlightenment.
to end suffering seems a possible answer,
No, it doesn't.
It's the ONLY answer.
but if there is no life after death, why put so much stress on non-attachment and why not try to enjoy life with sensual pleasures as much as one can?
Because we know where such an enjoyment of life, with its sensual pleasures leads, don't we?
i think spirituality needs 2 things as its basis to even stand - karma and rebirth. karma may be tested in some cases, but there has to be a need to believe in rebirth for any intention of - exiting from the cycle of birth and death - to even arise at the first place.
Why, exactly? Please explain why these are necessary.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@misecmisc1 said: the below web-page says something about faith in Buddhism:
Have you read it in full? It does speak of faith in the sense of confidence and trust....not as belief...
In Buddhism blind faith is not regarded highly...
Is stated....
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@misecmisc1 said:
before starting on the path to enlightenment, you have to believe there is something called enlightenment - if you do not believe there is enlightenment, why will you try to practice spiritual path? to end suffering seems a possible answer, but if there is no life after death, why put so much stress on non-attachment and why not try to enjoy life with sensual pleasures as much as one can?
I think we can start on the path of enlightenment without even knowing we are starting down a path. When I started practicing, I didn't know if there was such a state as absolute enlightenment and now that I have tested the waters I can say I don't believe in absolute enlightenment.
Not because I don't think it's possible to wake up completely but because I don't think there will ever be no more to learn.
Being enlightened is not the same thing as being completely awake in my view. Every time something is learned is an enlightenment.
I get caught up on words sometimes and this is one of the reasons I don't use the word "enlightened" when referring to being awake. I think it creates confusion.
But then, what do I know?
i think spirituality needs 2 things as its basis to even stand - karma and rebirth. karma may be tested in some cases, but there has to be a need to believe in rebirth for any intention of - exiting from the cycle of birth and death - to even arise at the first place.
I just want us to learn from our mistakes... Love and learn while having some fun doing it.
I'd like to see more healing than suffering but I won't make the decision to exit unless I'm the last one. If there is no rebirth after this life then all the more reason not to take this chance for granted.
I don't see ignorance as a bad thing unless it's willful. Without ignorance, there would be no wonder and no enlightenment.
@federica said:
Why, exactly? Please explain why these are necessary.
there has to be a need to believe in rebirth for any intention of - exiting from the cycle of birth and death - to even arise at the first place.
Well, if there is no rebirth, means if life ends after death and there is nothing after death, then why worry about awakening on the first place?
you know even if walk on spiritual path, still at the end of our life, we would age and grow old and get sick and die - so physical suffering will still be there, only the mental suffering may be eliminated - mental suffering may be more painful than physical suffering - But the point is - if there is rebirth, then the urge to exit from the cycle of birth and death, makes sense - because of the law of karma, who knows when will we get human birth again.
if this is the only life, which we have, then spirituality may be a good option to practice, but not the essential criteria - as somehow if we work hard to earn enough money so that we can keep ourselves deluded in ignorance through out our lives, which is now more easier considering the technological advances currently - then also a person even though may suffer, but he can easily pass through his life in sensuality. but if rebirth is true, doing this would be a waste of his precious human life.
the first sentence reads: Faith (Pāli: saddhā, Sanskrit: śraddhā) is an initial acceptance of the Buddha's teaching prior to realising its truth for oneself.
The Five Strengths (Sanskrit, Pali: pañca bala) in Buddhism are faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom. They are one of the seven sets of "qualities conducive to enlightenment." They are parallel facets of the five "spiritual faculties."
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@misecmisc1 said: Well, if there is no rebirth, means if life ends after death and there is nothing after death...
We have absolutely no certainty whatsoever, what happens when we die. Even if we accept the premise of re-birth or even reincarnation, it's still not a guarantee. Even firm belief does not mean certainty.
So keep an open mind, and just practise!
...then why worry about awakening on the first place?
I'm not worried in the slightest about 'awakening'. I have enough just getting from day to day walking the path in a skilful and mindful manner.
if this is the only life, which we have, then spirituality may be a good option to practice, but not the essential criteria - as somehow if we work hard to earn enough money so that we can keep ourselves deluded in ignorance through out our lives, which is now more easier considering the technological advances currently - then also a person even though may suffer, but he can easily pass through his life in sensuality. but if rebirth is true, doing this would be a waste of his precious human life.
Incorrect.
Many, many Buddhists have a successful, fulfilling life enjoying the trappings and pleasures of a bountiful and full experience, of life's fortunes, every day.
There are many successful Buddhists who are wealthy and comfortable.
But they are not attached to their material wealth.
They use it to social advantage, and enjoy the benefits and advantages it brings them, to be able yo use such belongings for the good of others.
There is no 'either/or'. It doesn't have to be a choice between the two.
If you believe are wasting your life by being attached to material things, or you insist that in order to be spiritual and dedicated to practice, such material existence cannot be enjoyed - then you have the problem.
Just so. It is not the material thing but the attachment to them that "Ain't so good".
We suffer what must be suffered and enjoy what is to be enjoyed, but we are not controlled or led by these things. To be spiritual is to enjoy life.
Your profile says "I am a Hindu." Are you considering trying the Buddhist path?
i am a Hindu by birth.
i struck spirituality by a series of incidents on internet nearly 3.5 years ago.
so for the last 3.5 years till now, what i have read are - Shreemad Bhagwad Geeta which has teachings of Lord Krishna, teachings of Jain saints by hearing their dharma talks which include teachings of Mahavira, read Buddha's teachings on 4NT,8FP,DO, teachings of Therevada Thai Forest Monks like Ajahn Chah, Brahm, Sumedho, Thannisaro Bhikku etc by viewing numerous videos on you tube and reading pdf files having their teachings, teachings of Mahayana Buddhism including Nagarjuna's teachings, Heart Sutra, teachings of Dogen like Genjokoan, Uji, some parts of Sandokai, the True Dharma Eye - Zen master Dogen's 300 koan collections, Tonglen meditation by listening to dharma talks on it, saw the movie Tibetian Book of the Dead on Bardo Thodo, read Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu, saw some portions of Bible which include Jesus Christ's teachings and also viewed some documentaries on Jesus Christ, which showed his teachings.
about my practice - don't know if it even exists currently.
for the past few days, i have added some yoga exercises and some tai-chi exercises in the morning and then try to sit in zazen posture and observe my breath for may be 5 minutes (as since i have to leave early for office to catch the office bus, and adding these exercises is taking majority of the time, so for the past few days getting very little time like say 5 mins for sitting - or may be just doing a formality of sitting for 5 mins, so that i may justify myself that i sat - stupid me).
@federica said:
We have absolutely no certainty whatsoever, what happens when we die. Even if we accept the premise of re-birth or even reincarnation, it's still not a guarantee.
do you believe Buddha said in his teachings that there is re-birth?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Yes, but he didn't add that we were absolutely obliged to take his word for it. He didn't say "This is my teaching, and as such, you must therefore believe everything I say." He gave a teaching, but advised those who were sufficiently stimulated, to investigate everything.
I consider re-birth to be a sound premise.
For me, it works, but that's just for me, to consider.
I see. At the moment you are borrowing from many traditions, following the eclectic path. This is a common experience nowadays: people like to explore the "marketplace" of spirituality, and often they also tend to think "they all ultimately get to the same place, I'm just chipping away at the same problem from different angles." Of course it is perfectly OK to proceed in this way; there a no rules on this; this is simply where you are now. However, I believe (as do many of those authors you mention) that eclecticism can take you only so far. Eventually, you may settle into a more focussed practice, and I think you may find that when you do, the rewards are enormous. Right now you are bedazzled by all the options, and possibly feel that by choosing one and dedicating to a certain path, you will somehow be "missing out" on other spiritual experiences. And in some sense, you will be. But the thing is, it is only by showing deep commitment that you really start to open yourself to a practice and start peeling away all those layers of habit, relationship routines, ways of seeing and being, that you have been developing and re-enforcing your entire life. Choosing a path is a form of surrender - certainly not blind faith, in fact the opposite, more like a realisation that actually you don't know a bunch of stuff no matter how many books you read because the truth isn't in the book it's both out there and in you already, and you won't be able to access it and 'know' it until you just try it (a dedicated path) and see the result for yourself. That is when speculation can transform into experience and true knowledge. Whichever path you tread, I wish you well.
5
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
No wonder at all, @misecmisc1 , that you have been apparently living in an utter state of confusion for the past year or so. A look at your threads and the questions you have asked, dilemmas you have pondered and teachings you have sought to clarify, sheds great light on how all these wonderful, fulfilling yet diverse traditions, schools of thought and teachings have actually wound your mind into a tangled ball of knotted, coloured strings....
You don't actually know which road to take, because it is as if you are at the hub of a wheel, with many many spokes, each spoke representing a path based on one of these creeds, and you're not quite sure which path to put your foot on...
I think you need to stop reading anything for a while. Truly, I do.
I think you need to stop studying, reading and learning, and begin to digest the information you have absorbed, and start to unravel that ball of string.... little by little, begin to untangle the colours, until you have a sense of precisely where you're heading, for yourself. Think on what you have learnt. Examine every bit of information you have gleaned, for logic, reason and truth. Your truth. And then pursue what seems most logical and reasonable to you.
First task: Quit reading.
Your cup is overflowing to the max, and you are saturated....
I don't believe in Buddha as a real historical person, but people need idols, icons and authorities. For me Buddhism is more like an ancient heritage, psychology, simple but still so accurate moral philosophy and ongoing cultural evolution both in the east and west. At least it should be an ongoing evolution.
"If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change." - Dalai Lama
@federica said:
You make the probably erroneous assumption that this is why people begin to follow Buddhism. I certainly, for my part, never embarked on following Buddhism because it would lead to enlightenment. I began to follow Buddhism because the more I read about Suffering, and transcending suffering, the more it made sense.
This is why the Buddha began to teach. He even stated he wanted to teach about the origin of suffering, and the cessation of suffering.
He never even mentioned enlightenment.
to end suffering seems a possible answer,
No, it doesn't.
It's the ONLY answer.
but if there is no life after death, why put so much stress on non-attachment and why not try to enjoy life with sensual pleasures as much as one can?
Because we know where such an enjoyment of life, with its sensual pleasures leads, don't we?
i think spirituality needs 2 things as its basis to even stand - karma and rebirth. karma may be tested in some cases, but there has to be a need to believe in rebirth for any intention of - exiting from the cycle of birth and death - to even arise at the first place.
Why, exactly? Please explain why these are necessary.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
I agree with Federica pretty much on this.
I am unconvinced about enlightenment. Not saying it's not something or not possible, but since I don't personally know any people that I believe were definitely enlightened, it's a rather nebulous concept.
But I literally began my interest in Buddhism when I noticed that many poor Thai people seemed very contented. In a sense, they were living a life where they were better able to deal with suffering.
I agree also with Federica about rebirth. Does rebirth occur? Perhaps. You can't prove it. It's a matter of faith. Oops. Faith. Oops.
But, without rebirth, without enlightenment, wouldn't the world still be a better place based on other Buddhist principles and teachings?
@vinlyn said:
This is why the Buddha began to teach. He even stated he wanted to teach about the origin of suffering, and the cessation of suffering.
He never even mentioned enlightenment.
Sir, agreed that Buddha would never have mentioned the word enlightenment, because it is an English word and may be English language would not have developed or at least may not be known in India at his time . On a serious note, what Buddha said in his life cannot be quoted with certainity since written language was i think not developed at that stage based on what i read somewhere and his teachings passed down orally through many generations. But if we believe what the suttas in Tipitaka or the Pali Cannon say about what the Buddha said, then as per the suttas, Buddha mentioned Nirvana or Nibbana to be exact as Pali may be language of communication at that time. The suttas say that as per Buddha, the cessation of all suffering is nibbana or nirvana.
but if there is no life after death, why put so much stress on non-attachment and why not try to enjoy life with sensual pleasures as much as one can?
Because we know where such an enjoyment of life, with its sensual pleasures leads, don't we?
i think you would agree that many people indulge themselves in material possessions, do not over indulge themselves, lead a life in which they are only concerned about themselves, their relations, earn sufficient amount of money to take care of their families, work thoroughly on week-days and on weekends go to shopping malls and watch movies, take care of their children, see them getting good education and then getting good job and then getting married and then see their grand-children being born and their up-bringing, getting old. i think many people specially the middle-class people, who do not get in touch with spirituality, may easily spend their lives in material possessions and sensual pleasures. Because if there is no rebirth, then why not try to lead a life, which is more comfortable, say lies to get more money, do not help others, having a feeling of competition with others, keep restricted ourselves with our families, etc?
the below is not for you but a general thing which i observed:
people tend to accept some teachings, which may be attributed as given by Buddha, but do not accept all his teachings. for example, rebirth. i do not understand how the thing like whether Buddha taught about rebirth can be doubted, because if there is a doubt about rebirth, then there is a doubt about the endless cycle of birth and death, then there is a doubt about whether an exit is there or not from this cycle, then there is a doubt about enlightenment.
Comments
You make the probably erroneous assumption that this isn why people begin to follow Buddhism.
I certainly, for my part, never embarked on following Buddhism because it would lead to enlightenment.
I began to follow Buddhism because the more I read about Suffering, and transcending suffering, the more it made sense.
This is why the Buddha began to teach. He even stated he wanted to teach about the origin of suffering, and the cessation of suffering.
He never even mentioned enlightenment.
No, it doesn't.
It's the ONLY answer.
Because we know where such an enjoyment of life, with its sensual pleasures leads, don't we?
Why, exactly? Please explain why these are necessary.
Have you read it in full? It does speak of faith in the sense of confidence and trust....not as belief...
Is stated....
I think we can start on the path of enlightenment without even knowing we are starting down a path. When I started practicing, I didn't know if there was such a state as absolute enlightenment and now that I have tested the waters I can say I don't believe in absolute enlightenment.
Not because I don't think it's possible to wake up completely but because I don't think there will ever be no more to learn.
Being enlightened is not the same thing as being completely awake in my view. Every time something is learned is an enlightenment.
I get caught up on words sometimes and this is one of the reasons I don't use the word "enlightened" when referring to being awake. I think it creates confusion.
But then, what do I know?
I just want us to learn from our mistakes... Love and learn while having some fun doing it.
I'd like to see more healing than suffering but I won't make the decision to exit unless I'm the last one. If there is no rebirth after this life then all the more reason not to take this chance for granted.
I don't see ignorance as a bad thing unless it's willful. Without ignorance, there would be no wonder and no enlightenment.
there has to be a need to believe in rebirth for any intention of - exiting from the cycle of birth and death - to even arise at the first place.
Well, if there is no rebirth, means if life ends after death and there is nothing after death, then why worry about awakening on the first place?
you know even if walk on spiritual path, still at the end of our life, we would age and grow old and get sick and die - so physical suffering will still be there, only the mental suffering may be eliminated - mental suffering may be more painful than physical suffering - But the point is - if there is rebirth, then the urge to exit from the cycle of birth and death, makes sense - because of the law of karma, who knows when will we get human birth again.
if this is the only life, which we have, then spirituality may be a good option to practice, but not the essential criteria - as somehow if we work hard to earn enough money so that we can keep ourselves deluded in ignorance through out our lives, which is now more easier considering the technological advances currently - then also a person even though may suffer, but he can easily pass through his life in sensuality. but if rebirth is true, doing this would be a waste of his precious human life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_in_Buddhism
the first sentence reads: Faith (Pāli: saddhā, Sanskrit: śraddhā) is an initial acceptance of the Buddha's teaching prior to realising its truth for oneself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Strengths
The Five Strengths (Sanskrit, Pali: pañca bala) in Buddhism are faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom. They are one of the seven sets of "qualities conducive to enlightenment." They are parallel facets of the five "spiritual faculties."
We have absolutely no certainty whatsoever, what happens when we die. Even if we accept the premise of re-birth or even reincarnation, it's still not a guarantee. Even firm belief does not mean certainty.
So keep an open mind, and just practise!
I'm not worried in the slightest about 'awakening'. I have enough just getting from day to day walking the path in a skilful and mindful manner.
Incorrect.
Many, many Buddhists have a successful, fulfilling life enjoying the trappings and pleasures of a bountiful and full experience, of life's fortunes, every day.
There are many successful Buddhists who are wealthy and comfortable.
But they are not attached to their material wealth.
They use it to social advantage, and enjoy the benefits and advantages it brings them, to be able yo use such belongings for the good of others.
There is no 'either/or'. It doesn't have to be a choice between the two.
If you believe are wasting your life by being attached to material things, or you insist that in order to be spiritual and dedicated to practice, such material existence cannot be enjoyed - then you have the problem.
Not everyone shares it.
Just so. It is not the material thing but the attachment to them that "Ain't so good".
We suffer what must be suffered and enjoy what is to be enjoyed, but we are not controlled or led by these things. To be spiritual is to enjoy life.
Peace to all
@misecmisc1
Your profile says "I am a Hindu." Are you considering trying the Buddhist path?
i am a Hindu by birth.
i struck spirituality by a series of incidents on internet nearly 3.5 years ago.
so for the last 3.5 years till now, what i have read are - Shreemad Bhagwad Geeta which has teachings of Lord Krishna, teachings of Jain saints by hearing their dharma talks which include teachings of Mahavira, read Buddha's teachings on 4NT,8FP,DO, teachings of Therevada Thai Forest Monks like Ajahn Chah, Brahm, Sumedho, Thannisaro Bhikku etc by viewing numerous videos on you tube and reading pdf files having their teachings, teachings of Mahayana Buddhism including Nagarjuna's teachings, Heart Sutra, teachings of Dogen like Genjokoan, Uji, some parts of Sandokai, the True Dharma Eye - Zen master Dogen's 300 koan collections, Tonglen meditation by listening to dharma talks on it, saw the movie Tibetian Book of the Dead on Bardo Thodo, read Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu, saw some portions of Bible which include Jesus Christ's teachings and also viewed some documentaries on Jesus Christ, which showed his teachings.
about my practice - don't know if it even exists currently.
for the past few days, i have added some yoga exercises and some tai-chi exercises in the morning and then try to sit in zazen posture and observe my breath for may be 5 minutes (as since i have to leave early for office to catch the office bus, and adding these exercises is taking majority of the time, so for the past few days getting very little time like say 5 mins for sitting - or may be just doing a formality of sitting for 5 mins, so that i may justify myself that i sat - stupid me).
do you believe Buddha said in his teachings that there is re-birth?
Yes, but he didn't add that we were absolutely obliged to take his word for it. He didn't say "This is my teaching, and as such, you must therefore believe everything I say." He gave a teaching, but advised those who were sufficiently stimulated, to investigate everything.
I consider re-birth to be a sound premise.
For me, it works, but that's just for me, to consider.
@misecmisc1
I see. At the moment you are borrowing from many traditions, following the eclectic path. This is a common experience nowadays: people like to explore the "marketplace" of spirituality, and often they also tend to think "they all ultimately get to the same place, I'm just chipping away at the same problem from different angles." Of course it is perfectly OK to proceed in this way; there a no rules on this; this is simply where you are now. However, I believe (as do many of those authors you mention) that eclecticism can take you only so far. Eventually, you may settle into a more focussed practice, and I think you may find that when you do, the rewards are enormous. Right now you are bedazzled by all the options, and possibly feel that by choosing one and dedicating to a certain path, you will somehow be "missing out" on other spiritual experiences. And in some sense, you will be. But the thing is, it is only by showing deep commitment that you really start to open yourself to a practice and start peeling away all those layers of habit, relationship routines, ways of seeing and being, that you have been developing and re-enforcing your entire life. Choosing a path is a form of surrender - certainly not blind faith, in fact the opposite, more like a realisation that actually you don't know a bunch of stuff no matter how many books you read because the truth isn't in the book it's both out there and in you already, and you won't be able to access it and 'know' it until you just try it (a dedicated path) and see the result for yourself. That is when speculation can transform into experience and true knowledge. Whichever path you tread, I wish you well.
No wonder at all, @misecmisc1 , that you have been apparently living in an utter state of confusion for the past year or so. A look at your threads and the questions you have asked, dilemmas you have pondered and teachings you have sought to clarify, sheds great light on how all these wonderful, fulfilling yet diverse traditions, schools of thought and teachings have actually wound your mind into a tangled ball of knotted, coloured strings....
You don't actually know which road to take, because it is as if you are at the hub of a wheel, with many many spokes, each spoke representing a path based on one of these creeds, and you're not quite sure which path to put your foot on...
I think you need to stop reading anything for a while. Truly, I do.
I think you need to stop studying, reading and learning, and begin to digest the information you have absorbed, and start to unravel that ball of string.... little by little, begin to untangle the colours, until you have a sense of precisely where you're heading, for yourself. Think on what you have learnt. Examine every bit of information you have gleaned, for logic, reason and truth. Your truth. And then pursue what seems most logical and reasonable to you.
First task: Quit reading.
Your cup is overflowing to the max, and you are saturated....
I don't believe in Buddha as a real historical person, but people need idols, icons and authorities. For me Buddhism is more like an ancient heritage, psychology, simple but still so accurate moral philosophy and ongoing cultural evolution both in the east and west. At least it should be an ongoing evolution.
"If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change." - Dalai Lama
This is why the Buddha began to teach. He even stated he wanted to teach about the origin of suffering, and the cessation of suffering.
He never even mentioned enlightenment.
No, it doesn't.
It's the ONLY answer.
Because we know where such an enjoyment of life, with its sensual pleasures leads, don't we?
Why, exactly? Please explain why these are necessary.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
I agree with Federica pretty much on this.
I am unconvinced about enlightenment. Not saying it's not something or not possible, but since I don't personally know any people that I believe were definitely enlightened, it's a rather nebulous concept.
But I literally began my interest in Buddhism when I noticed that many poor Thai people seemed very contented. In a sense, they were living a life where they were better able to deal with suffering.
I agree also with Federica about rebirth. Does rebirth occur? Perhaps. You can't prove it. It's a matter of faith. Oops. Faith. Oops.
But, without rebirth, without enlightenment, wouldn't the world still be a better place based on other Buddhist principles and teachings?
Sir, agreed that Buddha would never have mentioned the word enlightenment, because it is an English word and may be English language would not have developed or at least may not be known in India at his time
. On a serious note, what Buddha said in his life cannot be quoted with certainity since written language was i think not developed at that stage based on what i read somewhere and his teachings passed down orally through many generations. But if we believe what the suttas in Tipitaka or the Pali Cannon say about what the Buddha said, then as per the suttas, Buddha mentioned Nirvana or Nibbana to be exact as Pali may be language of communication at that time. The suttas say that as per Buddha, the cessation of all suffering is nibbana or nirvana.
but if there is no life after death, why put so much stress on non-attachment and why not try to enjoy life with sensual pleasures as much as one can?
i think you would agree that many people indulge themselves in material possessions, do not over indulge themselves, lead a life in which they are only concerned about themselves, their relations, earn sufficient amount of money to take care of their families, work thoroughly on week-days and on weekends go to shopping malls and watch movies, take care of their children, see them getting good education and then getting good job and then getting married and then see their grand-children being born and their up-bringing, getting old. i think many people specially the middle-class people, who do not get in touch with spirituality, may easily spend their lives in material possessions and sensual pleasures. Because if there is no rebirth, then why not try to lead a life, which is more comfortable, say lies to get more money, do not help others, having a feeling of competition with others, keep restricted ourselves with our families, etc?
the below is not for you but a general thing which i observed:
people tend to accept some teachings, which may be attributed as given by Buddha, but do not accept all his teachings. for example, rebirth. i do not understand how the thing like whether Buddha taught about rebirth can be doubted, because if there is a doubt about rebirth, then there is a doubt about the endless cycle of birth and death, then there is a doubt about whether an exit is there or not from this cycle, then there is a doubt about enlightenment.
@misecmisc1, sorry, but that's not my post. As I recall it was from Federica.
you are right sir, sorry for that confusion.