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Root cause of ignorance?
mikeg
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Can anybody tell me what the root cause of ignorance is?
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Yes.
associate with wicked friends (papamitta sevana) leads to listen to wrong ideas (asaddhamma savana) leads to inappropriate attention (ayoniso manasikara) leads to ignoraance (avijja)
there is a sutta related to it and someone would provide the source, i hope
@upekka
So..you think having no friends, or
being deaf would offer freedom from ignorance???
it seems it could be a lot of things, from a Buddhist standpoint, including how one is raised, past-life stuff, karma, ego. it's a broad topic. To me, there is a difference in someone who is ignorant due to lack of experience and education, and someone who has that information and experience yet is willfully ignorant because of a refusal to be open minded. It seems there is an awful lot that goes into it. I doubt there is one direct root cause for everyone.
The rule of thumb is that you can pretty much blame it on karma of your previous existences. (So everything in one's life is everyones own making so to speak). With no karmic dirt stuck on our mind(spirit/soul), we could be as smart as dolphins and wise as owls.
Great question!!!!
A lot of people will throw different ideas at you about this one. This is what I've discovered to be the root cause.
Who you "think" you are. The precursor to everything in our lives is "I" "I am sad, I am unhappy, i love..."
Always I comes before everything. The problem lies in that we actually don't know what this I is? We say I have a body, or I have a mind. But where is this I? You can't find it.
We believe we are a person who pops up in this world. We are somehow the controller of this body yet we can't stop thoughts or control the heart beating. Or glands or virtually anything else inside our body.
See the problem is we view ourselves as a skin enclosed ego who is separate from everything else, this view arises mainly to do with language.
A new born baby does not know I from not I. Everything is just seamless experience to them.
Then language comes in and everybody tells us who we are. We then believe it and the root cause of ignorance develops.
There are moments when somehow all the belief in I drops, you see clearly that this body/mind is being lived. Not by an ego. But by life itself. When this belief is dropped then there's no more self/other. There is just one seamless expanse of experience.
What made me start to see through this was that I realised thoughts are not controllable. And the "person" trying to control thought. Is just a thought.
Amazing all this.
Yes, basically, if you read here, 'Dukkha' is the Cause of Ignorance, (avijja) due to being rooted in Desire.
You're welcome.
@mikeg
The root cause of ignorance in Buddhism is simply a lack of understanding of either the 4 noble truths or dependent origination...take your choice.
The origin of ignorance however is as impossible to pin down as the origin of karma is.
I might be wrong, but isn't the other way around?
ignorance the cause of the dukka(suffering). ???
It's all part of the wheel.... It's a bit like a snake eating itself....... You'll need to take that point up with the Buddha.
All I know is that if I am ignorant, I am suffering.
There is a way out of suffering, but if I am ignorant, I may not pick that Way.
Oh, it's all too much.... Here it's 4.30am, and I can't sleep.....
Shall I 'suffer' from Insomnia?
No.
I just get on with it, and do something useful instead of sleeping....
"Root cause of ignorance?"
"I" don't know .....
Yes, we know.....
:rolleyes: (Need that emoticon. Seriously.)
Eating the apple from the Garden of Eden?
But really, not even the Buddha knows.
"From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?"
Assu Sutta
@mikeg
Misinterpretation of the physical world.
All objects inherently exist without name, definition and description.
Human beings have manufactured an identity to distinguish one object from another.
Bear
Definitions to communicate its purpose
Food
Descriptions to more easily recognize objects.
Brown hair, big claws, big teeth
Ancient humans found that they could communicate with other members of their clan or tribe by making gestures and imitating the objects they observed.
For example imitating the movements of a bear.
They realized that if they drew lines in the dirt to represent the animals they observed and attached sounds to them they would be better understood.
So as they explored their world they drew pictures and created sounds to describe their observations. And passed this down in much the same way we do now with small children. They learn from exposure to the world.
Along with names, definitions and descriptions we have other aspects which became associated with objects. Like anger, hatred, desire, envy, jealousy, craving, judgments and beliefs.
For example:
An ancient man is being hunted by a predator. There's a raging storm throwing him around. He seeks shelter under this huge tree. He also believes he can escape his stalker if he climbs up.
As he's running he tumbles to the ground. Allowing the beast behind him to get closer. He crawls to the tree, turns around, the animal is about to rip his throat out, and at that moment lightening strikes the beast killing him instantly.
This ancient man is filled with joy. He looks up into the sky and thinks, the sky spirits have saved me. This place must be sacred. It has to be. Because the spirits (lightening) have chosen to save me here.
So everyday he visits this sacred place to thank the spirits. And he passes this tradition on to his children. And their children's children. And as time passes, people continue to visit this sacred tree. But no one remembers why. Or the story of the Sacred Tree has changed over time.
By creating name, definition, description and attaching them to objects of our world. We have given them a false identity. And we have added other qualities on top of that, there by complicating them even more.
This may have been necessary for humans to improve their circumstances but it is also the cause of many perceived problems.
Whatever exists, simply exists. We complicate it by creating ideas and attaching them to the physical world.
This is ignorance.
All of which has its origins in manufactured languages, systems and signs, which gave birth to the rational logical mind. Which is the cause of ignorance. Because it is the root of false identity.
Please understand that the stories and examples here are all supposition. They were manufactured for demonstration purposes ONLY. However the explanation for the cause of ignorance is not unreasonable and is possible.
I don't think it has one, it's our default setting.
It's just labelling stuff, isn't it? How is that ignorance? Having a word for "bear" is actually very useful if one is about to attack and you need to warn people.
Being able to think rationally is also very useful for solving problems. Concepts are useful. Thinking itself can be useful. In any case getting rid of all these isn't practical, so I'm not sure what you're suggesting really.
@SpinyNorman
Because those labels are ultimately untrue. They are not inherent to those objects.
If you were born knowing that a particular animal was called a bear because life had incorporated that information into your DNA, through natural processes. That knowledge was built in the body. You didn't have to learn it. Every child born had this knowledge in them.
Then it would be ultimately true.
Every lifeform that feeds through a mouth, knows without being taught, that food is consumed through the mouth. That's inherent knowledge. There's no question. A baby will naturally bring food to its mouth, not its eyes, ears or nose.
This is the ultimate. No concepts needed.
Not knowing these fundamental truths is ignorance.
Yes. They are essential because they have been woven into the fabric of our relative existence. But that doesn't change the fact that whatever label or characteristic we've assigned to them is manufactured.
Yes but what is the root cause of those problems?
Isn't it the fact that we've created an Untrue (manufactured; man made; mind created) world and superimposed that onto Reality (naturally and inherently free of name, definition or description)
I'm stating that ignorance is not knowing the true nature of appearances.
Not that we use concepts. Not knowing their nature.
We've manufactured a reality for ourselves and we believe it to be true.
Not that we live and function within It.
Not knowing.
That's ignorance.
-It seems to me many times it comes from a mixture of certitude, fear and sense of wanting to remain comfortable...
Here is a very traditional Buddhist answer:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_poisons_(Buddhism)
(I love the three wholesome mental factors. All 5 of them.....)
I would argue that animals have ignorance in the sense of having an I even though they presumably don't have language or logical thought. They identify with themselves, they try to protect themselves from harm and aren't so interested in protecting not "I's". So I don't think that saying language or intelligence is the source of ignorance really gets down to the heart of it.
If you look at the 12 links of dependent origination, the cause is circular like others have said. The traditional view of when the cycle begin in the first place is that a beginning point can't be found. So maybe think of samsara as like a ring we go round and round on and liberation isn't so much about finding the end of that cycle as it is instead about stepping off the ring.
@person
Yes animals are born and live with ignorance.
Human beings are also born with ignorance.
Ignorance meaning not knowing the true nature of appearances.
The difference being that animals, as far as we know, do not have the capacity for self awareness to the degree that humans do.
Their self awareness is more of an ignorant awareness of their existence. Meaning they are not aware, that they are ignorant and aware. They cannot say, I know that I exist. Although they can feel their existence. It's primal. It's a pure (they live according to their inherent nature but do not have the capacity to contemplate their existence.) but ignorant existence.
Humans on the other hand can say, I know that I exist. And they can contemplate that existence. They can rise above their basic, primal, instinctual existence. They can intentionally alter their world. Add to it from their thinking mind. And then forget the original nature of it all Because they have been consumed by their own creations.
So both animal and human are born ignorant. But an animal lives unconscious (does not have the capacity to know he is ignorant) of his ignorance.
Humans are consciously ignorant but have the capacity to return to their inherent nature (Buddha nature) and utilize intelligence.
So if humans had not developed language and intelligence, he would be ignorant like the animal. They would be both on an instinctual living level.
The difference being one is born, lives and dies ignorant of his inherent nature. And never had the capacity to go beyond that.
The other is born ignorant. Lives in ignorance. But has the capacity to know that he is ignorant. And return to his inherent nature using intelligence.
It is because of that misinterpretation of the physical world due to language and intelligence that we are ignorant.
We will remove ourselves from that ignorance with language and intelligence.
The Cause is also the Cure.
Not really. The 12th link is aging, death, and the entire mass of dukkha, which doesn't make sense as a cause for ignorance, the 1st link. In Buddhism ignorance doesn't have a cause. So the wheel of life presentation is actually misleading.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avidyā_(Buddhism)
Though in Buddhism ignorance is a condition which can be overcome, which would be difficult for an animal, even clever cats.
Thank you all for your comments about ignorance (Avidya). Whilst I understand the definition as being a lack of understanding of the true nature of Absolute Reality, the false sense of 'I' or ego etc. I still fail to see how it arises originally. Buddha Shakyamuni states that it is the prime cause of samsara and, therefore, dukkha. If it is the prime cause, and not a result of, samsara, whence does it arise?
Ignorance is the default setting for sentient beings, it's just the way things are.
The first four paragraphs of this sutta give a sense of it:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.099.than.html
"Can anybody tell me what the root cause of ignorance is?"
In a nut shell (as others have already mentioned) ....The other eleven link in the chain of Dependant Origination (or Arising)....
2nd link: Volitional Formations
3rd link: Consciousness •
4th link: Mind - Body •
5th link: Six Sense Spheres •
6th link: Contact •
7th link: Feeling
8th link: Craving
9th link: Grasping
10th link: Becoming
11th link: Birth
12th link: Ageing & Death
You can't have one ( the 1st Ignorance) without the others.... Could ignorance exist without any of its other eleven siblings propping it up ?
It would seem that the more one tries to pin down by conventional means( ie, using logic) that which cannot be pinned down by/through logic, the more one suffers...."I" guess that's "Dukkha" for ya
@mikeg perhaps another way of finding an answer to the the above question is to ask one self the ultimate question "Who wants to know?"
@mikeg
The cause of suffering has its root in mind. How do we experience our world?
Only through mind.
When mind is not present. There is no suffering.
But even when there is mental activity, we only suffer when we become entangled with and give power to our thoughts by believing them to be absolute truth.
Samsara is the mental world of names, definitions, descriptions, beliefs, desires, craving, greed, jealousy, likes and aversions.
The Absolute is the absence of all the above.
In other words samsara is this very mind.
@Shoshin
However, if one observes his world prior to the arising of mind, It's not difficult to know clearly and thoroughly.
It's only difficult expressing it with words.
I guess I could be wrong but my view is that the ignorance we have to overcome isn't any different between a human and an animal. Its true that humans can overcome this by using their intellect but the ignorance to overcome isn't in the intellect, its a more of an instinctual feeling about the way things exist. So rather than human ignorance coming about as a result of intellectual layering upon reality, ignorance acts as a foundation upon which our intellectual musings are built.
I'd agree that mind is the root, except that our minds have evolved just like the rest of the different parts of us and animals as well. From what I've read about the evolution of human brains, it's been incredibly dynamic change now and again/here and there. Read Julian Jaynes' book about it...bit long title something like The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.
Ah! The rare human birth and the even rarer chance of coming into contact with the Dhamma.
I am coming to the conclusion that my question is meaningless, or, at best, irrelevant. The only thing that really matters is the illumination of ignorance by wisdom, by direct experience. Everything else is speculation, therefore unreal, samsaric. We do not need to question the origin of darkness when light shines. Thank you Spiny Norman for your reference to Gaddula Sutta. "A beginning point is not evident..."
Ignorance is the cause or condition for the other 11 links. "Condition" is more accurate than "cause" here, so we could say that while ignorance persists, suffering persists.
Dependent origination is basically an elaboration of the Second Noble Truth. It explains that while craving is the proximate cause of suffering, the root cause is ignorance.
Yes, that sounds more like it. Possibly ignorance is related to a lack of self-awareness?
But if mind is not present how do we experience anything?
"I think, therefore I am".
@SpinyNorman
Experiencing requires objects to be observed and a subject to observe them.
What I'm speaking of is the absence of both. No subject or object. No experiencing. No observer. Simply knowing.
Not knowing anything in particular. Just pure knowing. Pure meaning not defiled or contaminated by the intellect or any other qualities.
It's full yet, completely empty.
If you try to use your logical intellectual mind to understand that will not work. It is prior to intellect, reason and logic.
And at times even consciousness withdraws and that is the Absolute. But somehow functioning continues.
There is no more individual there. The little I has been absorbed. The Big I is now running the show.
And we know this because when consciousness re-emerges there is an awareness of consciousness' departure.
So pure consciousness is the absence of any experience. And the Absolute is the relinquishing of the body by consciousness, I suppose you could say. At that point life itself is doing all the driving.
I don't mean to sound cryptic but there's no other way to describe it. You would have to know directly to grasp it.
Not necessarily, we can talk about experience without self-view, without a subject, so just the experience of seeing, or hearing or whatever.
As the Bahiya Sutta explains:
"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html
Could you explain what you mean by the "Absolute" and the "Big I"?
The little I is self image and the Big I is Existence, Ultimate Reality, Life or The Absolute.
The Absolute is a non knowing, non being unconditioned condition. Consciousness is not present so there's nothing I can say about it.
So that its clear.
Mind is activity.
Consciousness is the one who knows mind and body. The knowing aspect.
The Absolute is the source of All.
So consciousness is the function of knowing, the function of awareness. But then you say that the "Absolute" is a non-knowing, and consciousness is not present.
If something cannot be known or experienced, isn't it then just an idea, a belief, a speculation? You might as well call it "God".
In Advaita for example there is the idea of union, the little I merging with the Big I. But you seem to be saying that the Big I cannot be known or experienced?
I don't think the Buddha taught that because even if you could know the original primary cause, that is the beginning of all samsara, that still won't help you. I think that is one of the reasons why samsara is said to be "beginning-less"
@SpinyNorman
If I sit and wonder, what is it that has just happened? Then it becomes speculation.
The occurrence itself is true. If I intellectualize it, try to figure it out, then it becomes fantasy. Because now I'm only playing with words in my mind.
It has been called by many names. God, the Ultimate. the Absolute, the Supreme, the Eternal, the Totality, Paramatman, Parabrahman, Existence, Life and many more I'm sure I've never heard.
The reason that it has been described as the complete cessation of suffering May be because there is absolutely nothing left of what you call, me, myself and I.
Even If consciousness is pure, It is still there. So I don't feel you could say, complete cessation of suffering. Maybe abeyance of suffering.
For example if your hand got chopped off. There may be freedom from identifying those extreme physical sensations which will occur as pain. There may not even be any mental stories created around the incident. Although you might not think of it as suffering. There is awareness of extreme pain and discomfort.
If consciousness has withdrawn then who suffers? Who is aware of it? There is nothing left of you to know it.
I know there have been people who have thought, "when I become one with the universe, one with God, I will be free and happy".
There is no more YOU. YOU have been completely destroyed. YOU won't be around to enjoy it. YOU have been absorbed. YOU are completely one with God. You are the Totality. The Paramatman. There is no more distinguishing between YOU and Life. You are life itself.
Now this is my expression of it. Another may explain it differently. But it's the same. Only the expression has changed because the one explaining expresses the occurrence based on the contents of his mind; according to his previous conditioning. The happening is the same. The expression will always be unique.
So, the point of all this is, that there really is no point?
I'm finding it increasingly difficult to relate your ideas to Buddhism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramatman
@silver
There's no point in trying to understand with the mind. So we practice to realize what we've always been. We've mentally separated ourselves from existence. We've created a bubble around ourselves. I once heard it described this way.
It's like a bubble floating in the air. The space in the bubble is the same as the space all over existence. The bubble creates the impression of separation. But really there is none.
We have created a bubble around ourselves. When the thing happens, the bubble has burst. Now there is no more separation. You are one with existence. Which you have always been. But did not know it.The bubble made it appear as though you were bound. Now the boundaries are gone.
@SpinyNorman
It doesn't matter if it's called, Buddhism or Advaita or whatever. Those systems or traditions are merely tools to discover your true nature. The final results are the same. Only the method of realizing it is different.
The names aren't limited to Buddhism. I was simply giving you names by which It has been called. Names that I'm familiar with.
I don't limit myself strictly to Buddhist terminology and concepts to express myself. I use whatever means that are at my disposal to explain as efficiently and thoroughly as possible.
And why would you even want to discuss this topic with a person who is so closed and narrow minded that they are unable to venture beyond the confines of a specific tradition to learn the truth about who we really are.
Blame it on the boogie.
Tee hee. Glad you asked?
Existence.
"Root cause of ignorance?"
Is....trying to find its root cause....