How "Established" Religions cause trouble.
DaveMcg
Shrewsbury,UK New
I was brought up in an Irish Catholic family living in Liverpool (Home of the Beatles). I was born in 1947. In 1964, I met the girl of my dreams (a non catholic). My family tried every trick in the book to break us up. We married in 1968 and we are still together. My family disowned me and even stopped me from attending my Mother's funeral by giving me the wrong date and church of her funeral. My wife has been and IS a great person who would make a great Buddhist but remains a Christian but she supports me in my Buddhist beliefs. All my original family have never been truly happy and have always been self centered. Some of them have even died, alone and bitter. My only regret is that I could not get through to them the Way of the Middle Path.
Comments
I am happy to see that you both got married without much trouble. In many religions people do not allow lovers to live together for there rules of tradition and goes to any extend.
Bravo, @DaveMcg for sticking to your guns and your g/f! You DO know that she can be both Christian and Buddhist, right? I am. I don't go to church - haven't for decades. Well anyway, it's a shame that so many people are in families that feel they have to disown other members over religion and politics. Welcome to NB.
I don't think established religions cause trouble. I think those who read whatever they want to read, INTO 'Established Religions', cause trouble.
Indeed. Religions can't do anything wrong. They just sit there wrapped up in the pages of books. It's the attachments and aversions people bring to the religion and their skewed interpretation that causes the problems.
It's sad that organized religion tends to divide, rather than help humanity realize the brotherhood of Man.
People make up religion, so get rid of the people and religion would be just fine
Regardless of who make them up, I would say that it is not the religion itself, but the disparity between it and other religions that causes a problem. Of course, people can still choose to reform their religions, but most do not because they view them as divine and unchangeable.
Again,not really the disparity between them because most of them have the same basic foundations, it's just the details that are different. It's how people interpret the details and how the prioritize all the information. And then they use that to compare to others and determine that their beliefs are right and others are wrong. That isn't the fault of the religions, which pretty much were all created by people with good hearts and good intentions of helping others. But we layer all our crap on top of the religions and compare them to others. Human problem, again.
Combine what you just said with what I just said, and I think we're on the same page.
The disparity between what one set of readers interprets as true, and another, can often cause conflicts.
The thought that comes to my mind is IF we could provide a really well balanced formal education (or not so formal) to our young, whose core concept is independent thinking, it's potential as part of improving life would be great.
Most people think they are right, so when you follow a religion. You think yours is the best or only one.
Expect everybody else feels exactly the same way about their religion.
I propose I new rule for all religions. Believe whatever you want but don't hurt anybody or try convert anybody to your belief system. That goes for Buddhism too.
I just had a 3 hour tattoo session with the artist being a born again Christian. He preached for three hours while he tattooed me.
I just listened to what he had to say, it made him atleast feel good
I didn't share my beliefs because it would upset him.
And he was putting permanent ink on my arm.
The only bad part about religion is when people believe it.
Very sorry to hear about your experiences with the followers of Jesus. Some of the mystics mainly Catholics, belong to the enlightened. You have to search them out. Few do.
When I became a non burqa wearing Muslim I was given a Koran. I was completely unimpressed with the text. However the commentary and interpretation by Al-Ghazali was sublime.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali
Now that I am almost a Buddhist I am a little more tolerant of religious orthodoxy.
Dukkha is universal. Many potential ways out ...
Buddha Akbar
@DaveMcg
Huh. So the problem with established religions is that people follow them religiously? Who knew?
I'm not laughing at your situation, or your family. I'm laughing at all of us on this Earth. If it helps, your family and their blind rejection of anyone not in their own tribe, either through religion or race or social status, is about as normal as you can get. I could swap you stories about my own family, as many here can about their family. Be a Buddhist and try to marry a Muslim in Burma and see how far you get.
Trying to keep you away from your Mother's funeral was a dick move. I think your family had more issues than just religion going on. My sympathies. The best revenge is to not be angry, but see them as the deeply flawed human beings they are. Then go live a good life.
I think it is unbearably confused and confusing when religion is held up as some sort of spotless gem. The thing about 'spotless' gems is that someone has to be out there polishing them from morning until night ... and still the spots appear. This endless polishing distracts from any honest effort towards understanding and peace.
Rather than considering religion as a spotless gem, I think it is easier to assume that all religion is a lie ... and it is up to the believer/disciple to winkle out what spotless truth there is.
People may balk at the word "lie," but I don't think that is necessary: People lie to each other all the time and with a little luck, we all live through it. Assuming religion is a lie simply redirects energies to more fruitful venues ... eg. discovering a spotless truth, assuming that is possible.
So my take -- and mine alone -- is that there comes a time to lighten the virtuous load, stop getting our knickers in a 'spotless' twist, and set about gaining the experience that will prove what others may insist on merely improving.
Religion is a lie. No big deal. Get used to it. And get to work, if this particular lie is what bangs your chimes.
How's that for a 'spotless' interpretation?
I don't think religions cause trouble, ignorant people cause trouble! Just imagine if everyone acted like Jesus did. You would have no problems!
Cool.
I have met Christians, Christian nuns, and Christian ministers at Buddhist meditation retreats. Meditation will enable the process described here:
He must increase, but I must decrease.
John 3:30
You too can support her ... [iz cunning plan]
“On every level of life, from housework to heights of prayer, in all judgment and efforts to get things done, hurry and impatience are sure marks of the amateur.”
― Evelyn Underhill
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/112836.Evelyn_Underhill
No, your wife is a great Christian, and should remain so.
She embodies the true heart essence of Christianity, unlike others around you, whom you have known.
It is she, who has been practising her faith correctly.
It is they, who are wrong.
She makes a great Christian. Let her continue that, with no 'but'.
you make a great Buddhist. You continue with that, unhindered.
Together, you are great.
Religions are just like musical instruments: it is great, but there are always good and bad instrumentalists.
If you see an awful violinist you will say violin sucks big time, but it is not the truth, he/she is just learning.
It is also possible to assume all religion is true when viewed by a spotless gem. However most of us view through our own flaws and sparkles ...
Truth may be a lie when expressed but then is never spoken of directly, thereby having no opposite polarity.
And now back to balance and bagpipe practice ...
Jesus specifically rose up to rile the religious circles of his time. He lived in a Jewish society which doesn't believe that G-d is anything but a single deity, and he came along and said he was the Son of God and that everyone should have faith in him.
If everyone went around doing this sort of self-righteous "I'm the best and you should follow me" we'd have a lot more crazy shit going on.
What's more, religions are not separate from people or ignorance. Religion is created by people and ignorance. Why are there so many religions, sects, cults, etc? Because of social change, ego, history... how can you separate Religion from Ignorant People when Ignorant People are the ones who practice Religion? They give rise to one another.
People give religion a bad name
People, whether established or not, are as inherently troublesome as their attachments.
If the manifestation of a person or a group, is biased towards developing harmlessness, then harmlessness can unfold.
If the manifestation of a person or a group, is biased towards developing ones ego, then suffering results.
It all comes back to suffering's cause and the path towards it's cessation.
This is a pretty good observation.
Religions based on faith- and salvation-based religions are almost inherently guilty of being biased towards ego, division, in-groups and out-groups. Kindness and "nice ideas" are secondary.
Some people say the reason we organize anything is bcus we want power. And therefoe organization in any form is evil (beecause power is evil).
Which of course is a ridiculous theory....
It's like saying ' knowledge is power, power is evil, therefore knowledge is evil'.
I can never remember what this illogical 'logic' sequence is called.... There's a name for it...
And we would NOT have people killing each other other every day. We would have no world wars, no terrorism, etc, etc.
Jesus did not go around murdering people! What would he say about the OP's family disowning him? Would Jesus disown his own family because they didn't believe in him? Of course not!
When "more crazy shit going on" means no murder and no war, that is a good thing.
The idea that religion creates ignorance, is the wrong idea. Religion does not create ignorance, the ignorance is already preexisting. The idea that religion is to blame, is a false place to place the blame.
I tried to read through this list but couldn't find the right one.
@federica Spurious Relationship or Illusory Correlation
THanks, @Walker, but I think it's a falacious argument or a nonsequitur....
@federica -- I think @walker is closer to the mark. A fallacious argument is simply a wrong one. And a nonsequitur "doesn't follow." While the argument here falls into both these categories, I think there is a more pinpoint description in logic (at which I always sucked) ... something about the screwed-up middle as in
All tables have four legs;
My dog has four legs;
Ergo my dog is a table.
Never mind ... I'm digging a hole and getting nowhere fast.
The theory that @techie proposed could be laid out as follows:
A. People organize because they desire power
B. Power is evil
C. Organization is evil
The argument could be classified as an informal fallacy for two reasons because:
A. Organization is not necessarily done because of a desire for power
B. Power is not necessarily evil
Not sure on this one. I'm gettin' all confuzzled!
Yeah. And it's veering O/T.....
Thus I have heard :
"Good people do 'good' things-Bad people do 'bad' things-For 'good' people to do 'bad' things...That takes religion" ....so it would seem
My religion is kindness
Dalai Lama
and now a message from the babe in the strange Chador
... and now back to the untroubling ...
Well. as @DaveG has only paid us one visit, and made one post, I'll close this for now, for when and if he might return.
Thanks to all who commented.
Nice posts.