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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited December 2015
@Earthninja said: @ourself no-thing , nothing. Same thing, they are no thing. Haha. Words words words. All pointing at nothing.
Ok @robot let me talk to nargarjuna. Oh wait, he doesn't exist.
Jokes mate! I know what you are saying. I'm just playing with words. Like I said.
Somewhere between everything and nothing. Nothing is a better word.
Because can we ever find a separate thing?
We can only find nothing. It's incredible
Your definition of nothing is missing something if you can find it I think.
If no thing is separate then we would see everything within anything, like the universe in a single atom. We would not be able to see nothing, lol.
Playing with words is ok but nothing means a lack of anything, not just a lack of separation.
But listen to me... Telling you what you can or cannot see. As if any of this has real bearing on the well being of others or that we should see through each others eyes.
Nothing, everything... A blurred smear of both at once and all in between.
Just smile and wave, Davey-boy, just smile and wave.
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited December 2015
@upekka said:
when we say 'everything' we refer to all that we know through our own eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind
but
'seeing Dhamma' or Enlightened means 'go beyond everything'
Sure, but we still want to be careful not to dismiss the relative as "not real or true" lest we miss the absolute.
To dismiss the world is to be stained by the world.
The relative may and often does miss the absolute but the absolute by definition must take relativity into account.
In fact you are already enlightened but you forgot that and this is called in Buddhism ignorance or in Sanskrit Avidya / Tib.: Ma Rigpa.
This not knowing has to be brought under the knowing factor by the application of personal methods.
The most will have in their state of death called the Bardo in Tibetan the possibility / chance to realise their done practice . This is then easy because there is no more phisycal body .
So at the moment of death then the first or real Mind is there , the Mind or Bodhi citta, Thatagatha garbha, which is never met in the previous live / existence. IF one can recognise his/her Enlightened Mind in the State of dying then one can become enlightened too. Therefore the dying proces is for some Tibetan Buddhists the examination of their done praxis.
Therefore the cause for Buddhahood is the practice or the development of the seed of Enlightenment, which we have or is inherent present in our existence as a human.
But also demons, gods , animals have this inherent present seed of Enlightenment.
Only matter does not have it.
Further there are not much humans here on this world who become a Buddha during their live. That does not mean that Buddha Shakyamuni would be the only Buddha who did reached during his existence on this world the State of Enlightenment or Buddhahood.
There are a lot of reincarnations or better said emanations of existing Buddhas who are not born from the womb. These are already Buddhas and we have the others who come back home again.
@DhammaDragon said:
I always wonder why some people are in such a hurry to attain Enlightenment.
Maybe because they realize that death is literally one breath away and you may not have much time left. You may only have a couple days! The zen masters of old considered a sense of urgency in such matters to be a very good thing. Zen Master Dogen said the urgency should be as "when we realize our hair is on fire" and to "practice like your hair is on fire". It's considered skillful, at least in some zen traditions, to cultivate a sense of urgency.
As far as I am aware the purpose of the Middle Way is not:
mindlessly 'enjoying' samsara and its passing perpetuation
pretending ignorance is wisdom
hoping for another life or other future placements
The purpose of the Middle Way is enlightenment. This inherent Buddha Nature and its realisation allows one to understand the value of enlightenment and its unfolding and possible sharing.
So the answer to the question of knowing is in this sense urgent. Knowing allows understanding. I feel deep down we all know that.
Enlightenment must be directly experienced and is not something an average person can wildly speculate about. Those who casually imitate the words and actions of Chan practitioners without doing the work to attain enlightenment will fall short and invite the ridicule of those who truly know.
Ven. Master Hsing Yun http://www.alanpeto.com/buddhism/understanding-enlightenment/
For all this above, the reality is you're enlightened when the right people say you are, and not before. In Zen you are told to immediately seek out a Master to verify your Satori or Kensho experience. And if you do manage to get an audience, the crusty old fart will ask who you studied under, ask a couple of questions that you should be able to answer, and then might tell you to go back and meditate another ten years or so. And what's to say that old Master knows what he's talking about?
The days of the Arahant are long gone, where the definition of Buddhism is a collection of begging monks who meditate in the forest until they free their minds of all defilements and declare they are enlightened now.
I think the one thing that is safe to say is, the more enlightened you are, the less it matters to you one way or another. If you're trying to help someone and you need people to declare you enlightened in order to get them to sit down, shut up, and listen for a change, then fine you're enlightened.
Comments
Hahaha
Your definition of nothing is missing something if you can find it I think.
If no thing is separate then we would see everything within anything, like the universe in a single atom. We would not be able to see nothing, lol.
Playing with words is ok but nothing means a lack of anything, not just a lack of separation.
But listen to me... Telling you what you can or cannot see. As if any of this has real bearing on the well being of others or that we should see through each others eyes.
Nothing, everything... A blurred smear of both at once and all in between.
Just smile and wave, Davey-boy, just smile and wave.
Sure, but we still want to be careful not to dismiss the relative as "not real or true" lest we miss the absolute.
To dismiss the world is to be stained by the world.
The relative may and often does miss the absolute but the absolute by definition must take relativity into account.
The result is true compassion and metta.
When you see that the liberation of your mind is unshakable.
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn56.11
If you were then you probably would not care about the answer. You'd be okay
Well very interesting question.
In fact you are already enlightened but you forgot that and this is called in Buddhism ignorance or in Sanskrit Avidya / Tib.: Ma Rigpa.
This not knowing has to be brought under the knowing factor by the application of personal methods.
The most will have in their state of death called the Bardo in Tibetan the possibility / chance to realise their done practice . This is then easy because there is no more phisycal body .
So at the moment of death then the first or real Mind is there , the Mind or Bodhi citta, Thatagatha garbha, which is never met in the previous live / existence. IF one can recognise his/her Enlightened Mind in the State of dying then one can become enlightened too. Therefore the dying proces is for some Tibetan Buddhists the examination of their done praxis.
Therefore the cause for Buddhahood is the practice or the development of the seed of Enlightenment, which we have or is inherent present in our existence as a human.
But also demons, gods , animals have this inherent present seed of Enlightenment.
Only matter does not have it.
Further there are not much humans here on this world who become a Buddha during their live. That does not mean that Buddha Shakyamuni would be the only Buddha who did reached during his existence on this world the State of Enlightenment or Buddhahood.
There are a lot of reincarnations or better said emanations of existing Buddhas who are not born from the womb. These are already Buddhas and we have the others who come back home again.
Best wishes
KY
As far as I am aware the purpose of the Middle Way is not:
The purpose of the Middle Way is enlightenment. This inherent Buddha Nature and its realisation allows one to understand the value of enlightenment and its unfolding and possible sharing.
So the answer to the question of knowing is in this sense urgent. Knowing allows understanding. I feel deep down we all know that.
Enlightenment must be directly experienced and is not something an average person can wildly speculate about. Those who casually imitate the words and actions of Chan practitioners without doing the work to attain enlightenment will fall short and invite the ridicule of those who truly know.
Ven. Master Hsing Yun
http://www.alanpeto.com/buddhism/understanding-enlightenment/
For all this above, the reality is you're enlightened when the right people say you are, and not before. In Zen you are told to immediately seek out a Master to verify your Satori or Kensho experience. And if you do manage to get an audience, the crusty old fart will ask who you studied under, ask a couple of questions that you should be able to answer, and then might tell you to go back and meditate another ten years or so. And what's to say that old Master knows what he's talking about?
The days of the Arahant are long gone, where the definition of Buddhism is a collection of begging monks who meditate in the forest until they free their minds of all defilements and declare they are enlightened now.
I think the one thing that is safe to say is, the more enlightened you are, the less it matters to you one way or another. If you're trying to help someone and you need people to declare you enlightened in order to get them to sit down, shut up, and listen for a change, then fine you're enlightened.
There are sure in Buddhism explanations about certain signs which shows the degree of progress.
For instance the result of concentration can be clairvoyance.
That is a sign of mental emancipation / progress.
Then we can be sure temporal Enlightened or sudden,
That can vary from minutes to hours daily up to 24 hours which is equal to Buddhahood.
The signs are sure commented in the scriptures as far as i know.
But that depends maybe upon the Buddhist Tradition where one is involved.
Main point would be here , how long could one stay / remain in one`s State of Enlightenment, which is inherent present dwelling as Bodhi citta.
Best wishes
KY
you (one) do(es) not need anyone to say that 'you are Enlightened' because one knows if one is
About one`s inner experiences, nobody can show this to another one like a photo etc.
So it is a very subjective experience not visible to others.
So one is aware about a certain experience which can be seen as temporal enlightenment.
Then there are explanations about those meditational States and what they cause (in the mind of karma or reflects the Enlightened State.
So the most meditations are related to the Mind of karma with methods like Samataha and Viapassana. It causes tranquillity and insight.
Insight can turn into Wisdom, which sees without dualities or subject and object.
Experienced this Wisdom is experiencing or entering a State of the Enlightened Mind.
Si IMO if this self arising Wisdom is there, then this is the sign.
Best wishes
KY