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How do we observe
KaldenYungdrung
Netherlands Explorer
We have the eye and the eye sense etc.
The eye seems to be a death organ which has no function without Mind or the watcher.
In Buddhism we can have:
- inwardly meditations
- outwardly meditations which can be projections.
Outwardly seeing is done with the eyes and is seen as impure
Inwardly seeing would be pure.
Questions rises:
- What have the eyes for function in meditation as well for inwardly as outwardly meditations ?
- How is spiritual seeing experienced, if without eyes ?
- When is spoken of clear and impure experiences qua seeing ?
- What are the signs of inwardly success and failures regarding "observing"
- What are the signs if outwardly success and failures "observing" ?
KY
0
Comments
@KaldenYungdrung
Not sure what you are trying to get at here?
The usual function of meditation is about trying to allow all of lifes sense data to arise, live and pass on, without us clinging, rejecting or ignoring any of it.
As such, visual data is considered to be no more or less significant than what you hear, smell, taste, feel or think.
Photon data, vibration data, scent data, taste data, sensation data and thought data all offer either the chance to be subjugated by our attachments through our indulging of them or the transcendence of those same attachments through our meditative equanimity with them.
What represents "success" for you?
In the Dzogchen school I was involved with we meditated with eyes wide open. But I'd agree in a general sense that Buddhist meditation is primarily inward rather than outward looking.
It's one approach to meditation, but there are many.
Its a try to give an impression about meditational states done with a dualistic mind or with one`s Natural State. Or better siad with object or without object.
Last mentioned meditations differ from other forms of meditation because it does not deal with objects, seen with the eyes from outside to inside.
Success for me personal regarding Dharma matters would be, to die in a perfect State of Mind, it´s the prove of one`s Dharma practice, done on this earth,
KY
Dzogchen has a very different and typical style of meditation which is certainly not experienced as such in other Buddhist Traditions.
I guess so Dzogchen has meditations which one even cannot say it is meditation.
These styles of "meditation" , go beyond the standard forms of Buddhist Meditations like Samatha and Vipassana.
KY.
Not that I remember, but maybe you could say how it is "very different", practically speaking.
I do not know about Dzogchen.
I think (?), however, that it is not whether one's eye are open or one's eyes are shut, per se.
It is in the 'mind' that the meditation occurs (however one decides to define 'mind').
My meditation is always with eyes open and includes a chant (Nam myoho renge kyo).
At times, I am hyper aware of all that is happening around me yet my focus is lazer sharp. It is a different perspective, but a good one to experience.
Peace to all
Whist we await the great seal advocates reply ...
Like all meditation [spoiler alert] mahamudra, dzogchen, mindfulness (now available in mass media popularity) etc the goal is onion ... eh union ... a sort of reverse onion where all the eye watering bits are gone ...
Patrol Rinpoche describes it this way:
... spontaneous, luminous (or knowing) aspect of the nature of Mind - or awareness (rigpa), the original state of Mind, fresh, vast, luminous, and beyond thought.
Now then ... ahem ... if it is 'beyond thought' how can it be known or 'shine'?
It would be more correct to say it emanates as a void or shines without being luminous. If it was called a 'dark light' we might settle on its absence ...
... and now back to the observing ...
Time for the Oneness of the Hot Cocoa.
I Use my eyes in meditation to watch my belly rise and fall this is the way I manage to turn my attention to my natural breath. Sort of like spitting a wave and then catching a wave then riding the wave. I then eventually close my eyes but then need to re open again and again to catch another wave. I have tried keeping my eyes closed and find I cannot connect to my breath. Need to practice more!
I never really thought about the eyes when I meditate. However, I would assume the eyes in inward meditation may be a metaphor (for lack of a better word) for "looking within". What many called the Third Eye. I read in one sutra (I will have to find it cause I marked it), it talks about the different parts of the body--the nose, eyes, ears, throught, etc. He said that awareness uses all senses then he talks about how those senses can be blocked it could block the other senses.
So, anyway, I feel this is what is meant by inward meditation with the eyes. Using the eyes and other senses of awareness etc during meditation.
As for outward meditations, I call it "gettin off your cushion". The inward meditations you get from your meditation would transform to outward meditations/actions etc you do when you are interacting with others etc. It (the eyes) also means awareness, insight, etc.
How is spirituality experienced without the eyes?
If you cut off all your lights and sat in pitch darkness, and used your other senses, your awareness sharpens. Maybe that awareness is what the Buddha is talking about, I dont know. He does, as above, say using all senses without clinging is the key to awareness. Without one sense, I assume one can still reach that point. Though, harder.
Clear and pure experiences without the eys?
Not clining to your senses as if they are the guide to enligtenment part of the body with which enlightenment comes through.
A lot of your questions have to do with awareness, observance, and insight by not clining to your senses as enlightenment but actually acting with your senses to be enlightened. Puting your focus on actions rather than senses and enlightenment.
If I said any of that right.
same goes with ear, nose etc.
if we can not see 2. happens after 1.happened we are deluded and act accordingly
we react to 'something brought up by our own mind'
but we think we react to something outside of us which is happening at the present moment
(in the case of eye, we do not react to the colour we see, but to the thought that brings up when we see the colour)
This may be related to the difference between perceiving and conceiving, as described in MN1: https://suttacentral.net/en/mn1
you are an Asset @SpinyNorman , THANKS
I likes it.
Looking within = third eye.
Sounds about right to me. We might say in a similar way that the sixth sense is looking out with the 'inner eye'/wisdom body/intuitive awareness etc.
The idea of being aware or conscious through different 'processing units'/chakras is of limited value and really needs updating to incorporate/integrate with modern psychology.
So for example people clearly think/experience different interpretations of reality if thinking through their:
How do we observe?
With our body
With our mind
With our being