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The Boddhisattva and oneself
Carlita
Bastian please! Save us!United States Veteran
I wasn't raised to think of myself before others. Yet, over and over again, when I read the sutras, the Buddha says to take care of others before oneself (as in others-centered rather than self-centered). Where does one draw the line, as a Boddhisattva, when taking care of others is a higher than taking care of self?
I mean, you still keep yourself healthy. Just Boddhisattvas first want others to be enlightened before themselves. Is it like that in other schools of Buddhism just taught differently? How do you find that boundry line?
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I'm not sure that's correct. Aren't Bodhisattvas already enlightened?
My understanding is that Boddhisattvas make a commitment not to leave samsara until all other beings are enlightened.
Happy to stand corrected on that point.
In answer to your question, my understanding is that this practice encourages us to equalise ourself and others i.e. cherish others as much as we cherish ourselves (not more than we cherish ourselves). So we should eat well, get enough sleep, exercise etc but do it for the benefit of all beings not just for the benefit of ourselves.
Does that make sense?
In my view a bodhisattva doesn't strive to help others instead of helping themselves, they help themselves mostly by helping others.
The boundary line is a tool of expression and exploration.
You can't take care of others without taking care of your self.
You're right. and the Buddha did say there is no difference between himself and others. What I read about Bodhisattvas is that they "will be" enlightened but their goal before reaching that enlightenment is to lead others to do so first.
I know the Buddha was once a Bodhisattva once. However, I think he preached after he was enlightened rather than trying to help others before he knew the truth himself.
So, I'm kinda confused with the two roles.
Charity rather than sacrifice. That sounds right.
I thought that at first growing up. Now it's more, I can't take of myself without others. It becomes a community support rather than individual isolation.
I think you need to balance the two ideas...
1. You can't take care of others without taking care of yourself.
2. You can't take care of yourself without others.
Someone once told me to treat my marriage like a bank account. Try to put more in than you take out. I think that applies to any relationship with others. The more you give, the more you receive.
Having said that, there are people that take advantage of generosity. But we can learn compassion and patience from our experiences with them. And sometimes, we can't even see that they are learning from watching us, generosity, compassion and patience.
The sentiment is likened to the safety instruction relayed by an Air Hostess, to passengers, just before taking off.
"In the event of the need for oxygen masks, always secure your own mask before helping other with theirs."
You are in no position to be able to help others breathe if you yourself are gasping for air.
On a practical level, there's no point offering to help someone experiencing a mild headache if you have a raging migraine accompanied by nausea and high sensitivity to light and noise.
Similarly, if you do not in some way adhere to the Eightfold Path and 5 Precepts, you're not going to be setting too much of an appropriate or skilful example to others....
Are you....?
At the risk of getting bogged down in high-falutin' discourse, I think it is useful to recall "the four propositions" when addressing the matter of the "self."
The four propositions are: 1. It exists 2. It does not exist 3. It both exists and does not exist and 4. It neither exists nor does not exist. The problem with these observations is that they can be absorbed and dissected at an intellectual level but their value lies in actualization of their meaning -- an actualization that arises naturally from practice rather than palaver.
Without some French-kiss understanding -- something intimate -- the four propositions are just beer and bullshit. But with practice that grows subtly over time, the problem presented by the so-called "self" becomes less harrowing.
Think a moment: If there is no such thing as an abiding and unchanging "self," then what is all this barbed wire I keep tripping over? And that same question might be directed at someone "else" as well. Who is this someone "else" towards whom I may direct my altruisms?
I can feel this slipping off the cliff of jibber-jabber spirituality ... or perhaps it's just me ... again ... screwing the pooch.
Keep on practicing and things become like the fresh air after a howling storm. Be as kind as you can but don't make a fetish out of it.
Wubba-wubba ....
That's the theravadin in @federica coming out
But it is true, a really good example if this is in sports or training. If someone is trying to help you in your training it is great and really nice of them, but if they have no skill or background then it's likely they are not going to be helpful.
Better the help comes from a coach who has a huge wealth of knowledge and actually played the sport.
If you want to understand enlightenment and be free from suffering, better to actually talk to an enlightened being rather than a teacher who thinks they know.
Bodhisatva put off drifting off in oblivion to come back and help others across the shore.
IMHO, it seems that during a full awakening many people can become incredibly disorientated, they lose themselves completely and there is a risk they don't come back. "To conventional reality"
she still can't see any separation but plays the game that there is.
I was speaking to a friend who said this, she said it was her children that pulled her back Into the world of the relative.
Hear, hear! I have discovered this since I have taken the five precepts recently.
By being more mindful of my own speech and physical actions I am hoping I can be more helpful to others........
Bodhisattva is not enlightened. It is said they could be enlightened but choose not to be. However, that is most often not how it is approached in practice.
Their focus is others, but they are able to focus on others in such a manner because they already know and practice the balance of taking care of themselves. They have at least started to deal with their own stuff. Their own self care is always present, but it is somewhat on autopilot. There is less focus on dealing so much directly with their issues, and more helping others as a mean to get through their stuff (if that makes sense, probably clear as mud, lol).
Like, the saying goes that you cannot help a neighbor with their trash unless you take yours out first-it would be pointless. A Bodhisattva would look at it more as "Hey, let's clean up the neighborhood!" because in the process, their garbage would be cleaned, too. But that only works when you've taken some of the trash from inside and left it on the curb. You help yourself through helping others.
The situation is one of complicity. A 'teacher' and 'student' may be in the situation of the blinded leading the blind. So the first goal of the student is to develop enough capacity to recognise genuine qualities in ourself and others.
Most dharma teachers are information carriers who may have developed qualities such as mindfulnes, meditation experience, precept keeping etc. That may be a good start and example to start with.
Indeed.
I like to keep things simple so from a personal view point.....
Bodhi=Awaken Sattva=Being >>>An altruistic human being with just enough sense of self to operate comfortably in the conventional world, but not too much so as to become bogged down with the mundane...Ie, the craving grasping and clinging that arises when one is too full of one self ...
One could say Altruism is in a simple sense just self sacrificed action
I guess in the long run Talk/word is cheap & one's action speaks louder than words
I think there is confusion that bodhisatva is highest stage. Bodhisatva is a person who has confirmed the importance of right path. Bodhisatva is not a complete enlightenment because in one jataka tales bodhisatva was a gambler who used to play gambling for money and consume alcohol at the end of the day.
I never read anywhere to give priority others above oneself in buddhist text.
Dalai lama is supposed to wait for all to get final liberation.
As per buddha there are four kind of person.
One who do not care of self nor others is like a dead body.
One who take care of others but not self.
One who thinks for self and do not care others at all.
Finest person is one who care self and also help others.
He placed person who take care of self before who just care others.
Finally the qoute of dalai lama is " If you can not help others atleast don't hurt them'.
A Bodhisattva can be viewed as a guide. Helping or guiding others along the path as he/she is also traversing the path.
You can not guide/help others up the mountain if you are not yourself climbing the mountain with them.
Peace to all
I've been reading the comments with interest, and I tried to type a response to the OT three different times and ended up deleting them. As one who took the Bodhisattva Vows many years ago, I don't have words that really explain what's behind it all. I know the textbook definition is that a Bodhisattva is someone who delays entering nirvana to help others. The way that's phrased, it assumes this is some sort of conscious choice, that we see a door labeled "Nirvana" and decide to turn around and go get everyone else instead of opening it. Sounds pretty damn noble, doesn't it?
That isn't what it's like at all. Nirvana isn't some place out there or even some elevated state of mind. When you start to comprehend the emptiness of self, when the wall of your ego is chipped away at until you can start peeking at the reality of the world through the tiny hole you made, then there's no more "Me" and "Those bastards out there." It's just "Us". No, we aren't "One". God, I hate that guru talk. I'm still me and you're still you. But like your right and left hand, you and I are part of something bigger. So we all go together. When I vow to save everyone, it's because I know there's no other choice. We're all in this together.
That's what following the Bodhisattva path actually feels like. Sort of. Like I said, it's hard to find words that don't make it seem like more than it is. I just try to help people, for whatever little difference it might make in people's lives. No biggie. Lots of us out there.
What makes you think everyone wants to be "saved"? It sounds a bit evangelical.
I don't think those that say things like "we are all one" mean it so literally. They don't mean much different than you do. Just like the ocean, we understand it is made up of individual drops with their own characteristics. But put together they are "the ocean" and that is just what we call it. Humanity isn't much different. We all have our joys and struggles, our uniqueness. But it's part of something bigger, which we are all in together and we help to shape what it is, and what it becomes.
I think there is a lot of romanticism around Bodhisattva and the vow. I, too, have taken it, but just last spring. I was interested in it from the start, but more out of ego. I had to work with my teacher to better understand what it was about. There's nothing so "I will go back into the burning house over and over again!" about it. Sometimes, it is quite painful, for me at least. I see and feel more of humanity than I used to (not saying that is because of taking a Bodhisattva vow, it has been a progression through the years) and it is to experience the whole of humanity. The entire human experience is playing out at every moment and and it's overwhelming sometimes. There's not much romantic about it. I think before I chose to ignore it, and now I can't. But it is also easier to see opportunities to help in whatever small way is possible. Most often, a smile goes a long ways and is one of our best tools to communicate understanding in a moment's time.
To me, taking the vow was less about me making a promise to save everyone and more about a recognition and understanding on my part. It has brought a better grasp, as @Cinorjer says, that we are all in it together and there is no other choice. I think that is an excellent way to put it.
For one to be enlightened, all must have been in the dark. For all to be enlightened, one must remain in the dark.
I like the term awakened better than enlightened for some reason... Maybe I just don't want to be left alone in the dark even though I have taken a vow to volunteer if that's what it takes.
I prefer awakened, too, David. It makes more "sense" to me and is a better describer. "Enlightened" is way overused and misunderstood anyhow.
Your first phrase reminds me of a Harry Potter prophecy, LOL
Lol... It's from a thing I wrote maybe 15 years ago now called The Way of Infinity. I shared it in one of the first threads I started here a couple years back.
I don't want to convert anyone to Buddhism. That's not what the vows are saying. "Beings are beyond number, but I vow to save them all" is another way of saying it's a never-ending job. I don't have some quota of people to help and then I'll call it a job well done and retire. When I vowed, it was a way of saying this is it. It's what I do now. I'm going to try doing this for the rest of this life and whatever comes after that. If you're ready for this step, you need to understand that before you take the vow.
And to say I'm going to "save people" is of course an impossible task in itself. Save them from what? Themselves? How the hell do I do that? I don't know. If you have any ideas, I'd love to hear them. I do what I can, and I get up the next day and do it again. Remember, it's not me versus the world. It's you and me together, "us".
It looks like the Bodhisattva vow extends to future lives - how do you think about that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva_vow
The vow continues as long as I do. If I continue in some future life, then death is no excuse to say it's someone else's problem now.
Thats what many do. They sacrifice their health to help another. Like the blind helping the blind. Unless maybe that person has no ability to help the other, say no leggs to help another across the room who is trying to walk. Others give their food to their children even they they too are starving. There is a balance.
Was there a point where the Buddha looked to himselr before others as a Bodhissatva or did he wait until he was a Buddha to help others?
How do you know who is commenting on your post?
There are so many posts, I cant keep up.
I like that. Thats a better way to put the role of a Bohisattva.
Didnt the Buddha not come to save others from their dellusions and attachments?
Save them from what? Their dellusions and attachments etc. However, the Buddha didnt do it for the monks he spoke with. He taught them through different methods so they can "save" themselves.
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Yet, according to the Sutras, immediately after awakening, Lord Buddha debated whether or not to bother trying to teach this deep understanding to others. He knew people cherished their ignorance and were addicted to their desires, fears, and greed. In the end he began his great mission anyway and taught that everyone had the capacity to be awakened, even knowing most people were going to reject his Noble Truths. Believing something was impossible was no excuse not to do it, in his eyes. In this way, he became the inspiration for all the Boddhisattvas out there.
But I'm not the Buddha. I don't try to be him. However, I can try to use my own Buddha Nature, such as it is, to do my own little part. This is the argument I had with myself before I took the vows.
I think that when someone takes the vow, they are committing to a path of realization as well as service. They will, if they haven't already, develop a deepening understanding that their actions will have consequences that reverberate through time and space. Sensitivity to what is happening in their own life will gradually prevent actions that harm them later.
A bodhisattva who has acquired great merit and skill is the selfless cause of actions that can echo for generations or centuries as benefit for countless beings.
Same as a powerful, evil man can cause misery that goes on and on.
That's the way I see it.
When I see someone who acts like a Boddhisattva, whether they have taken vows or not, what I see is someone who tirelessly acts to help everyone..
I think that the actual concept of Bodhisattvahood was mostly introduced to counter the potential dangers of practitioners chaise lounging it within there own spiritual gains & quietism.
Boddhisattvahood unfolds naturally within all Buddhist schools with the progressive softening of anyones identity boundaries. The manifestation of compassion, tenderness, sympathy, love, empathy, benevolence and wisdom are it's calling card.
On the me side of the identity boundary, the Bodhisattva vows can easily sound like impossibilities and eternal drudgery.
Beyond the limitation of an identity construct, however, the Bodhisattva vows can be equated with the goal of goalessness, or just practicing for practice sake.
Don't practice to become enlightened/awakened -Let your practice be the natural expression of your enlightenment/awakeness !"
But really, though, I think people tend to act like it's a bigger deal than it is, like it's some huge sacrifice. All I did was vow to keep doing what had become my nature to do, anyway. This gives me the secret handshake.
I like what @robot said, which also explains the nature of karma. Also the idea of 'progressive softening' @how mentions, as opposed to the hardening of the 'Darth Vader side of the Dharma/force'.
Being evil is no fun. It is the tightening around hurtful and harmful behavour. Who wants to be damaged by that process?
Doing good is a natural unfolding. A sharing. As for those who don't want to be saved from ignorance, harm and harming. Their karma is to be the results of their choices ...
Ah, @lobster, you did it again.
Back(?) to discussion: for those Bodhisattvas reaching the door, OPEN THE DARN THING! Then decide if you would rather "push" or "pull" as it were.
Peace to all
It gets really confusing when a door has the automatic door symbol but isn't actually automatic. Then I stand there waiting for it to open, get flustered and inevitable push when I should have pulled.
Practice is sometimes the same, lol.
Thank you. What does the pop up mean? I know I didn't get emails for this reply for some reason.
I actually feel everyone is a Buddha (not The Buddha) is that what you mean?. The Buddha did say that no one is different from him in regards of the campacity to be enlightened.
You are right, you (and we) can do the best we can to use our Buddha nature. Maybe as a Bodhisattva? Who knows.
What I know is that the Bodhisatta who became the present Buddha had great mettle when he went on the noble search.
@carlita if you are on the Newbuddhist page and someone replies, a popup will show up in the bottom left corner that someone replied. That is what the popup option is for.
A nice story about engaged Buddhism:
http://buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=3,12533,0,0,1,0#.VqXVK_mLTIU