Attachment to food
Jeroen
Luminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlands Veteran
I've been wondering about this for a little while, and thought I might ask what others think on this subject. I know food is one of my weaknesses, there are a few kinds of food - not that many - which I have difficulty restraining myself from. I might have some nuts in the kitchen, head over to make myself a cup of tea, and find myself eating a small handful almost without thinking about it. Or chocolate digestives. It's terribly unmindful, a bad habit, and means I have to be careful about putting on weight too.
So I've decided to try to tackle this by first of all seeing if I could exert some willpower. I have bought a bag of my favourite cocktail nuts (it's a Dutch thing) and have had a small handful, and am determined to leave the open bag sitting in my kitchen for a month, challenging my completist attitude towards finishing things as well as the desire to eat them. In the past it has been a kind of nagging desire, followed by greed to have more, followed by an unwillingness to leave a small amount in the bag which has sometimes led me to eat a whole bag of these nuts. Although this time I am determined things will go differently! 
What are other people's experiences with mindless eating habits? Any tips on how to let go of this habit?
Comments
Hi @Kerome and welcome to NB. I do understand your plight. It seems a harmless habit but we both know it's not so harmless. I think a lot of little factors go into this which adds up to a big factor that keeps us from being able to maintain a rational outlook on this habit. I think we rationalize why we do it momentarily, when we go in for the kill - to kill off a bag of nuts or whatever. There are other things to do, and maybe we sometimes use it to distract ourselves from doing something we don't want to do. Some chore that we find distasteful is put off for another few moments! We tend to think of food as our friend, which makes it especially enticing. What exactly are chocolate 'digestives'? I've never heard chocolate called that - except for Exlax which I don't even think exists anymore except in pill form (too many pranksters used it I think).
You've never HEARD of chocolate digestives - !? OMG, you haven't LIVED!!!!
Here, have a biscuit!!
OP, I wouldn't test my willpower that way as a first step. You need to work up to it gradually. It's enough of a test of willpower to simply not have your temptation foods in the house. If you can restrain yourself from running out and buying some, that's a good first step. What you're doing now, having the nuts in the house, is giving yourself a trial by fire. You're defying yourself to resist. I think a more gradual approach to building up the willpower muscles would be better, and in the long run, more successful. You know, more of a "middle way".
Yup.
Absence of the food may be 'cold turkey' but it works.
willpower has little to do with the effects of our diet. They all say it does, but it doesn't. What we crave has a lot to do with 2 things: what our body needs nutritionally and what our hormones and brain have trained us to desire based on pleasure.
despite their higher calories, nuts are good for you. They do not cause weight gain the way the same number of calories in cookies/biscuits do. And it all has to do with the effect of insulin on the body and how it works when it spikes repeatedly. Calories are NOT created equal.
our hormonal systems drive us, big time. Will power only surpasses it for a short time. The questions to start asking are does your body actually crave those unhealthy snack foods (nuts are not included in this, they are healthy for you on many levels, eat them!) for nutrition? No, it doesn't. So it's your brain pleasure centers and your hormonal body state telling you that you need them. And most likely it is because a few hours ago you ate something starcy or carby that spiked your blood sugar and now your blood sugar is dipping a few points too low and your body is driving you to eat in order to fix it. Bring that cycle under control and you never have to worry about will power. You won't have the cravings and mindless eating because your body will regulate it's hormones and you won't be rising and crashing all day. Track your diet a few days (honestly, with what you normally eat and not what you wish would show on the form) and see what you are eating. You'll find patterns. Balance your diet and bring your carb (especially processed carb) intake to reasonable levels and you'll find that your need to invoke "will power" won't even be in play anymore. Because your body will be balanced, and you'll be fine having a biscuit/cookie on occasion and it won't matter.
don't blame yourself for a lack of mindfulness or willpower. It's far more complex than that.
That's, true @karasti, balancing the blood sugar is important. Which means eliminating the chocolates, for the OP, as well as examining the quantity and quality of carbs consumed. However, I disagree to some extent regarding nuts. I keep hearing that from some doctors, and I'm sorry, nuts are carby. (I speak from experience in dealing with my own blood sugar issues.) They will cause weight gain, and will provoke insulin, if eaten in excess, like any whole grain carb. A handful, which the OP says is her usual snack, isn't too much, but it's easy to keep munching them, which I think is what the OP is struggling with.
But I completely agree that the OP should take a good look at her (his?) overall diet and restructure it a bit with an eye toward stabilizing blood sugar, and then observe how that affects her cravings. Then get back to us.
She might discover that her food attachments have changed or vanished.
It depends a lot on the exact nut eaten and what is on it, if anything. Our son is a diabetic so we track every carb he eats and the response to it. He can eat nuts pretty freely without any negative effects. But, people respond VERY differently to the same foods, which is why no one diet works for everyone. Some people have insulin response to one thing that normally someone else would not. I have a friend who has horrid blood sugar spikes from hot dogs of all things, lol. It also is a different impact if you are already insulin sensitive.
If you are eating glazed nuts that is different of course. Or flavored almonds. Raw, unsalted nuts rarely cause a problem if you aren't eating pounds of them. There was just a study recently about how differently healthy fats tend to be treated by the body versus the same calories in other forms. Calories are definitely not created equal. Peanuts cause a different reaction as well because they are legumes, not nuts. The number of carbs doesn't always matter as much, depending what you eat it with and what the overall source is. 12 grams carbs of a Reese's egg is not treated remotely the same by the body as 12 grams of carbs from a cup of walnuts. Entirely different response from the second you start eating them because as soon as the sweet of the candy is picked up by your mouth your body is prepared to send insulin. That is part of why diet pop leads to weight gain despite no calories. Your body senses the sweet and prepares to deal with it only to find there is nothing to deal with and it causes all sorts of havoc. Not to mention because the nuts have fat and protein, the blood sugar uptake of the carbs is far, far slower and doesn't cause the spike that sugary or starchy carbs do.
The problem people usually associate with weight gain of typically healthy foods is not usually the result of the food eaten (ie too many nuts) but an overall unhealthy calorie intake, or ratio of nutrients on a multi-week basis. A lot of the time people turn to things like nuts because they know it's healthier. But often that craving is a result of the high carb lunch they ate. in which case it would be the too-high carb lunch, and not the nuts, that is the ultimate problem.
Also, briefly, lol, how your body deals with any food is largely dependent on how you are fueling it overall. An unbalanced diet will lead your body to deal with even healthy food in a negative way. Just like if you used low quality fuel in your car, it would start to clog your car up and your fuel efficiency would drop. Putting good quality oil in your car while using poor quality fuel would not improve efficiency. Our bodies are much the same.
But we have to be the ones to do the tracking and pattern finding to realize what our ideal diet is, no one else can tell us. One of my big rules for shopping is, never do it hungry. Ever. I also try to avoid the store when I have PMS, lol. I don't even go into the junk food aisles,and I have no problem avoiding them as long as I'm not starving. After a few weeks of avoiding it, trying that junk food again is like night and day. Tastes like the garbage it is once your body isn't accustomed to having it. I had a few cheetos the other day and had to spit them out. They used to be my favorite.
Thanks, @karasti. I haven't read all of both posts, but I appreciate your posting your son's situation, and commenting that different people react differently. I've had doctors recommend nuts as an easy snack to maintain blood sugar stability on an empty stomach, but they always had the opposite effect on me, because, I think, for my system, the ratio of carbs to protein wasn't right--not enough protein. It's good to know that this can differ from one patient to the next. Now I know why doctors are so big on that; apparently nuts do work for some people.
It's amazing how different it can be for different people. It makes it so hard when you are told "this will work" and then it doesn't work! And frustrating when people make it sound so simple "just eat less and move more." Well if that was so easy losing weight would be a piece of cake! It's just so complex!
Food is definitely one of the strong attachments. If you think about the physical sensations of hunger, it's interesting how the mind plays a role in that. The body can actually go without food longer than the mind allows. Where does the attachment come from? I think it comes from past experiences in savoring flavor. Perhaps it is good to reflect on a few things when savoring. One thing would be that food is just for survival, and savoring is just a bonus.
@Kerome A rough play on the six sense doors come to mind and the ol' Dependent Origination .....
• 1st link: Ignorance •
• 2nd link:Volitional Formations
• 3rd link: Consciousness
• 4th link: Mind - Body
• 5th link:Six Sense Spheres
• 6th link: Contact
. 7th link: Feeling
• 8th link: Craving
• 9th link: Grasping
• 10th link:Becoming
• 11th link:Birth
• 12th link:Ageing & Death
Eyes"5th" see"6th" the chocolate biscuits, pleasant feeling "7th" arises then craving "8th" to satisfy the feeling, that arose when the eyes spied the chocolate biscuits which leads to grasping"9th" at the packet and 10th , 11th, 12th ....the chocolate biscuits are history
...until the next packet is bought to satisfy the craving....And this is where Ignorance 1st etc comes back into play and the whole cycle begins again....
Perhaps @Kerome you should start to work ( contemplate/meditate ) on the twelve links, which may help you to develop insight which leads to better self control...(if that is what you really want/need )
May your karmic pattern flow in moderation
Good advice... I am roughly aware of the dietary aspects, it's more the mindless grab followed by lack of ability to resist that I object to. My determination around these nuts seems to have aroused some more awareness, several times I have opened the cupboard to make tea and given the nuts an affectionate pat in passing without really feeling temptation.
It helps that I'm not going hungry and have some tic-tacs and raisins to snack on once or twice a day. So it's not as if I'm going hungry and these nuts are firmly in the crosshairs.
The idea of dependent origination around the craving for food does interest me. Do you suppose the attachment to food functions like a karmic attachment, eventually encouraging you to be reborn again after death?
And 'I' am a he, by the way.
I'm reading this thread with a lot of interest - particularly @karasti's informative posts.
I am vegetarian, but I crave carbs. There's a whole load of difference to me, between eating Hummus on a slice of sourdough bread,and eating it with carrot sticks.... Gimme the bread any time....!
I guess along with the obvious way, 'DO' also works on a more subtle level, for example craving for certain foods that brings one great pleasure may ( along with other types of craving ) contribute to the karmic imprint on the consciousness stream that leads to being reborn 'rebirth'
I'm afraid I'm no expert when it comes to the ins and outs of "craving", however this here will perhaps give you more insight into what craving "Tanha" is all about from a Buddhist perspective....
Also....
~Craving is the builder of this house~
" Through many a birth in samsara have I wandered in vain, seeking the builder of this house (of life). Repeated birth is indeed suffering!
O house-builder, you are seen! You will not build this house again. For your rafters are broken and your ridgepole shattered. My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving."
~The Dhammapada verses 153-154~
Changing dietary habits is easy when you find a good reason for it, whatever and whenever it may be. The idea of willpower does not play into that kind of a concept, since reasoning goes much deeper when you know what you gain mentally when you refrain from eating certain foods.
I have been on a whole foods plant based diet now for 8 months: no junk vegan food, no salt, no sugar, no oil, no animal products. My health is MUCH improved, which was my goal. I am off all medications except one, lost weight, gained stamina and strength (thanks to daily exercise.)
I find that a vegan diet goes very well with Buddhist intent to do no harm!
I couldn't be happier about that and wonder what took me so long. I was a vegetarian for over 25 years. Being vegan is not just a diet, it is a lifestyle that truly compliments Buddhism. That's what makes it easy.
PS. @karasti, I am insulin dependent diabetic, cut my insulin almost in half, and will go on pills tomorrow (in addition to insulin) to see how much further I can reduce insulin. I have been on insulin for 28 years. Insulin furthers diabetes :-( .
The out of sight, (hopefully) out of mind approach may work too. Granted the greed remains latent but its a start.
One of the simplest ways to avoid habitual eating is to never multitask when you eat. Sit down at the table and just eat, every time. Even for snacks. You are far more likely to realize you aren't really hungry and less likely to just grab stuff and eat. It's really easy to eat more than you intended while you are watching tv, using the computer, sitting at your desk at work, driving in the car etc. Make eating it's own separate activity.
I read this not long ago and quite enjoyed it. When you practice mindful eating, it changes your entire experience of how food tastes (among other things) and you find the things you thought you loved so much are really just kind of "meh" because they are devoid of nutrition. The really tasty things like fresh berries start to appeal much more than mass produced foods.
Article:
http://thubtenchodron.org/2016/01/understanding-the-mind/
We talked about it some here, too, here's the link to the discussion
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/23553/mindful-eating#latest
@possibilities Diabetics find Dr. Richard Bernstein's book, Diabetes Solution: the complete guide to achieving normal blood sugars, to be helpful and informative. He's a lifelong Type 1 diabetes patient, and developed a diet that got him off insulin entirely, and kept him off. It's very strict (no fruits allowed, and almost no carbs of other types, either), but as a Type 1, that's what was necessary for him to banish insulin from his life. Exercise, and building or maintaining lean muscle mass, is also key, as he explains. It's a good reference work on all things pertaining to alleviating diabetes.
I tend to think of the wider definition of food as nutrition. For example the emotionally starved, comfort eat.
I am a great believer in more is less. So for example nuts and other mindless food can be offered to a Buddha shrine deity and then eaten mindfully as a practice.
Do you grind a few nuts to share with the sentient beings known as birds?
Another 'more is less' practice is to uses nuts in for example salads with a brilliant dressing. Nuts can also be added to real bircher muesli
http://mylittlegourmet.com/breakfast/bircher-muesli/
My gran made this alpine treat with bilberries and cream as well as yogurt and usually roughly ground hazlenuts. It was considered a main meal. Delicious. Awesome. Yum.
@Dakini does he explain in the book how he bypasses the need for insulin to shuttle calories/energy between the cells and the body? It's not just that it lowers blood sugar, but insulin performs many functions with regards to metabolism. If he gets no insulin at all and his body doesn't make it, how does his body regulate any of those functions? Insulin also is what directs the body's cells to store fat, and someone who is on a keto diet has to have fat storage, as your body can function only on either fat or carbs for energy. I'm curious how he explains this.
His basic info suggests he simply follows a keto diet, with the required ~30g of carbs per day needed for the brain to perform its functions, as the brain can only operate on carbs. I know several diabetics who do that, but they still require a minimal amount of insulin for all the other operations it performs.
@karasti I haven't read the whole book, but as I flipped through, looking for passages that might get into the kind of detail you're discussing, I see that he peppers the chapters with details of his personal experience, as an illustration of how everything works. Probably the info is in there, somewhere. It's a good reference work, I don't know if you feel that it's worth it to buy, in order to have it at home. If not, I could let you know if I come across that info. He does devote several chapters to how to use insulin, the different types available and their characteristics, etc., so it's not a book that only talks about how to get off it.
He's available to answer questions by phone monthly. For details, see
http://www.askdrbernstein.net
Thanks @Dakini. I will take a look and maybe I will just pick it up. I enjoy learning about the processes if nothing else! Because our son is so young, keto diets are highly recommended against but we keep him fairly low carb compared to what most kids eat and I'm interested for the future for his sake. Even if he stays on insulin, most stable blood sugars of course is ideal all around. Because he is always having growth spurts and there is so much variation in his daily activity and learning, he's all over the place all the time. He was only 2 when he was diagnosed, and I don't want to him suffer complications especially early in life if there are ways to avoid it better than the medical world allows for. I appreciate the information! (sorry to @Kerome for momentarily hijacking your thread! I'll stop now, lol)
Correction! Of course "I" am an expert on craving...Where would "I" be if it were not for craving ???? Doh !
Thanks @pegembara for the dharma digestive.
In tantra holy biscuits and cake (torma) is provided as an offering and various grains are offered in fire rituals.
I am great believer in Buddhist Transubstantiation
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation
This is my dharmakaya,
eat this chocolate hobnob in rememberance
of Buddha Nature
We haz master plan ... and we bring biscuits ...
This thread is starting to look like it's been sponsored by McVitie's.
Mmmm... Chocolate Digestives and Chocolate Hobnobs.... drool...
OM MANI PEME HOB KNOB
the mantra of the reverse tao (oat) manifest in the dharma vehicle of the Yab-Yum (HOB KNOB) is dipped mindfully in a creative symbolism. The tea ceremony of the Western Order of Biscuity Bodhi is symbolic of the Heiros Gamos. The chocolate represents the Sacred Dharma, the cup of Zen tea, compassion and the biscuit skilful Yum Yum.
Thus have I dunked
OM MANI PEME HOB KNOB
Well yesterday I had a mini nut crisis, but I managed to withstand it with little more than a cautionary glance at my enemy, the bag of nuts in the kitchen cupboard.
Could you separate the nuts into smaller servings so that when you want some, you just take a small serving? Like in snack sized ziploc bags (if you have that kind of thing there) or a small plastic container? I find buying or making snack sized servings helps quite a bit. Also, I look at every nutrition label every time I shop. I try to choose most of my groceries by the fact they don't HAVE nutrition labels. But the things that do, most often just looking at what is in them is enough to make me not buy them at all.
The other day we were at a restaurant and the had amazing looking pancakes. 3 smallish pancakes with whipped cream and lemon meringue pie filling. and 2 eggs with bacon. So I looked up on the site what it would be nutrition-wise, and those 3 smallish pancakes had 174 grams of carbs. 174. HOLY HELL! They no longer even looked good. I went with a veggie omelet.
More nut news today, demonstrating the deviousness of my brain.
I was in the supermarket and happened to walk through the aisle where they store the nuts. Suddenly a thought arises in me, why don't I buy a SECOND bag of nuts. That way I could eat them and not break my promise to myself about the open bag of nuts in my kitchen.
Of course I manfully resisted the impulse, but it just goes to show you can't trust that thing between your ears.
Maybe you were a squirrel in a past life or something, huh?
@Kerome LOL! I think all the nuts we need are in our brains
Attachment to food:
For energy to be created, energy has to be applied. To most humans that comes in various food diets. I think due to evolutionary choices man made in the past ( that includes man's choices to experience other sensory stimulation when eating), it has been a challenge to accept that man can live without food. There was an article and I believe was featured in the news as well that a man from India, (if my memory serves me right) who has been surviving without food for many years, also a man in Europe whose diet consist of only glass and metals. Not sure of its validity though, (since im not there personally) but it think its possible man can survive with other ways to sustain oneself.
Man can survive without food for 2 weeks at the most, without water for 4 days at the most and without air for 5 minutes at the most.
I take tales of people indulging in extreme Pica with a pinch of salt.
Which is more than they do...
Make your enemy your friend....they taste a lot nicer if you can
People can survive more than 2 weeks without food, it just depends on a lot of factors, including how much fat they have stored as the body. Even cases up to 2 months or so have been medically recorded. I have read the story about the man in India, who has been observed in hospital settings but I would bet money that he has a genetic abnormality and that it is not something a typical person would achieve simply by trying really hard. There are lots of recorded medical data about people with similar genetic abnormalities, such as people who can run and run and run and just never get tired because of how their bodies deal with the lactic acid normal people build up that causes us to stop working out/running. You can train your body to improve that process greatly, but you cannot remove it entirely yet there are people for whom that is the case.
Interesting about the lactic acid handling variation dependent on genetics. Often we make too many assumptions about everybody being built in a similar way, but there are individuals who are outliers. The 'iceman' Wim Hoff comes to mind, who seems to do things with cold that suggest yogic powers.
After I have finished my confrontation with the nuts - I thought I would keep it up for a month - I was thinking I may adopt the monks rule for only eating food before lunch for a while. I think that might break a few patterns and help me assert control over my eating habits.
Of course the nuts are kind of symbolic of a wider class of attachment. They happen to be the flashpoint of unconscious behaviour, the hardest to resist, but in actuality the same thing also happens to a certain degree with other foods... A slice of cheese, a bit of chocolate.
It was very tempting after I had a beer after my walk of yesterday, but I managed to stick with it and leave the nuts untouched in the cupboard. There was a moment of doubt, but my resolve stayed quite strong. Still the combination of beer's mind-befogging qualities and the presence of said cocktail nuts was, hum, interesting.
@Kerome OK, you're going to have to explain, now. what the motive is for exerting self-control in relation to nuts. I'm not quite understanding what you're after. You allow yourself chocolates, you allow yourself beer, but for some reason, you limit your nut intake. You do realize, don't you, a) nuts are the healthiest item in that list, and b) if you cut out the chocolates and the beer, you could have more than one handful of nuts per day, without suffering any excessive caloric or blood sugar issues? The picture isn't making sense to me. It seems very very arbitrary, the foods you've chosen to allow and disallow. Is it because you have a tendency to binge on nuts, but chocolate or beer don't hold a similar power over you?
That's exactly it, I am trying to tackle a tendency to eat 'unconsciously', and with these nuts I am particularly prone to it. They are not just any kind of nuts, you understand, they are coated in a kind of crust which is particularly yum.
For example you head into the kitchen, take a handful of nuts, and without hardly noticing you take a second handful, and then you've eaten the whole bag, oops. For a long time I responded by banishing them from my home, and just refused to buy any.
The key point is not about nutrition or healthy eating, it is about consciousness and being aware what I eat. The nuts just happen to be the point of greatest temptation, where I am trying to break the habit.
Oh, they're coated with yummy stuff - you might want to find out the ingredients...perhaps the ingredients will turn you off from them. I can't eat dry-roasted peanuts any longer since I discovered some of the bad stuff that's in the coating. Just an idea.
Here's a list of dry roasted Planters brand dry-roasted peanuts:
Ingredients:
INGREDIENTS: PEANUTS, CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SEA SALT, SPICES (CONTAINS CELERY), DRIED ONION, DRIED GARLIC, PAPRIKA, NATURAL FLAVOR, SUGAR, GELATIN, TORULA YEAST, CORNSTARCH, DRIED CORN SYRUP, MALTODEXTRIN.
The cornstarch is relatively innocent, but the dried corn syrup ain't. Ditto for the maltodextrin.
Maltodextrin is a slightly sweet bulking agent, and a derivative of grains, but it's mainly carbohydratic starch. It's a cheap ingredient which also 'transports' other flavours.
I just read a little bit about it and it's okay, except the article says that "...Though not a sugar, it still has a glycemic index of 130 by itself (table sugar is only 65)." Here's the link to that article: http://fitnessfortravel.com/is-maltodextrin-bad-for-you/
Yes. Diabetics and potentials, beware....
great posts, @silver! Very informative.
OP, it might help you to know that the food industry is geared toward creating flavors and textures that humans find irresistible. It's entrapment, seriously. They have psychologists and taste-ologists studying this stuff and working on ways to hook the consumer. They calibrate saltiness, crunchiness, sweetness, etc. This is what you've fallen for, most of us do at some point in life, and then we have to extricate ourselves from the trap. It's all a gigantic marketing scheme to sell us more cr@p we don't need. You have been bamboozled.
I remember watching a programme on why McDonalds was so successful; it was relatively inexpensive and effort-free, so mums and dads liked it. And the kids could eat with their fingers and run around, play and let rip, mums had no washing up, all dads had to do was just order and pay.
The seats are comfortable enough for you to sit and eat, but not so comfortable that you want to linger...
....and the McDonalds big mac sauce is that colour because... in a survey of 200 diners volunteering for a taste & presentation test - that was the colour they liked best.
It has nothing to do with flavour. It was just a colour preference.
There you go.
Hey @Federica, does the big mac sauce have lumps in it - like pickle relish or something? I haven't been to MickyD's in ages...I just thought it was based on what my grandmother used to make - I think she called it Russian dressing by mixing ketchup with mayo/miracle whip, without the pickle relish. I think some people call it Thousand Islands dressing, too. I have no idea.
No, it's a smooth mayo-like cream, like the Marie Rose sauce for prawn cocktails...but goodness knows what flavourings they use... But the colour was simply chosen by volunteer samplers looking at a colour chart, with each colour given a reference number. They simply coloured the resulting sauce against the colour most chosen as popular.
ETA: I didn't recall it having lumps, but having looked at some pictures, it does appear to have chopped dill pickles in there....? I Dunno...it's ages since I had one too! Being a veggie, I haven't tried one for quite some while.
Yeah, @silver there's relish and finely chopped onion in it. I make my own version of it at home. Apparently, the recipe was accidentally leaked many years ago when McDonald's issued a memo to their franchisees for how to make their own sauce when they were running low, and waiting for a couple of days for a delivery.