Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Why is GOD seperate?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
@DhammaDragon says
God is like the chicken pox - you get it when you are young, then you get over it - but it doesn't go away. The virus lingers in the nerves, then something sets it off and you get the shingles. I am inclined to believe that at least some of the God talk here represents an effort to get rid of the shingles - that may be at least partly true in my own case. For me, I think it is a useful exercise, but perhaps not the most skillful one. What do you think would be a better approach? Silence is better, stillness, meditation - but this is a forum: if everyone kept silent, it would cease to exist.
True enough, no place for the big guy in Buddhism, if we follow only the teachings of Gautama. I sometimes suspect that Buddhism at large is not entirely untainted by metaphysical considerations, however. I've never pursued the notion, since it has seemed irrelevant to my own practice. What do you think? Is Buddhism forever and always untouched by metaphysics?
@ federica
I understand what you mean
Whether you believe in God or not, needless to ask, I'd embrace you or someone with all Sincerity, Compassion,Kindness, Love and wish only Peace to all of us.
I'd agree that power can sometimes be abused and all that where awareness comes in.
As for Hope, personally that help me recover in many hardships, knowing that all will be good. I guess with out that, I may have done things that can cause not only harm to myself but aswell as others. Still that's only my perspective. Cant speak for all. Perhaps, given your thoughts about hope, its safe to say Hope is like a tool one can use to either help or harm others.
Peace
I personally do not find hope to be a great strength but rather most often a lie we tell ourselves to keep forging ahead. However, you can set hope aside and still forge ahead just fine without it.
I see what you mean
God is all. All is god. "God".
What does your gut tells you?
We don't see the Universe as it is, we see it as we are. Since computer programs are a human construct, comparing the origins of the Universe to them would be like my cat comparing the movement of my car to the ball he bats around the living room floor.
That we are all GOD,
We are all different in our own ways,
But we are all the same,
The universe living for a moment as many
Different individuals.
Somehow we've forgotten this,
Accidentally,
Or on purpose.
Not necessarily. Computer programs are a human construct but cyber space was discovered and tapped into, not created.
Hmmm. I respectfully do not agree with that. Pretty broad statement to make that claims of Buddhists. Not sure the Buddha ever said that there was no god to the best of my knowledge. I always assumed that God was just not part of the Buddhist teachings. I know of several Buddhist masters who have made comments about God.
For myself, I spent my life relentlessly trying to prove the existence of God because I had no faith and an intense fear of death. It was the cause of great suffering in me, and when I finally gave up the search, I wound up in a deep depression that eventually led me to Buddhism.
That said, I have made my peace with God. Stopped trying to prove it's existence. Accepted the fact that it is a great mystery that cannot be solved. As a result I find peace in viewing the Universe as God. And we are all pieces of the Universe/God trying to understand itself.
Maybe that is what enlightenment is, I don't know. I am not enlightened. Just trying to stay focused on here and now and do good every moment I can.
Buddhism lets me do that. Keeps me focused on what I can understand and know. It is a mystery I can explore. I will leave God to God.
ET.
Everything has a point and a purpose,
Think about it,
All the systems running in the background in and on this planet,
The gulf stream,
Controls the seas
The jet stream,
Controls the temperature and weather,
Every insect and animal has a purpose and a reason,
All things fit together,
Life cycles,
Death brings new life,
The food chain,
Keeping everything in check,
Trees/ plants to keep the atmosphere sustainable,
The different seasons.
All working without anyone really noticing.
All here because,
Billions of years ago nothing blew up,
And created all this.
Completely at random?!
I think he does:
God is part of Buddhism insofar as the teaching of everything - including the notion of God, or the existence of Gods, is concerned. It's all impermanent, and belief in an omnipotent God is an unskilful view.
TNH is very 'Pro-Jesus' but I wouldn't say all Great masters think on his level, or even agree. For the major part, most Buddhist 'Authorities' will tell you it's just something to not bother thinking of, because it would tie you in knots....
I rest my case....
I find better peace in viewing the Universe as simply that.
The fibonnaci spiral.
Found everywhere in nature.
And all what you see,
Started by nothing exploding,
Into what you see now,
Completely at random,
For no apparent reason.
It's not completely at random, and there is plenty of reason. It's a question of spatial efficiency.
See more here.
Evolution took care of it, it didn't just happen overnight, by accident.
Hi Fedrica,
I just wanted to say that just because I didn't find God, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Could be that my notions of God were/are not correct. Maybe God isn't what everybody thinks it is. Also could be that I wasn't supposed to find God that I could stumble on to Buddhism. I don't know. Like I said, I gave up on finding him, but did not give up believing in the possibility.
I do respect your alternate opinion though, and am better for hearing(reading) it.
Thanks for the discussion.
ET
Oh, don't get me wrong - I don't discount the possibility either, although logic, science and research tells me God's existence is less likely than possible.
I never give it a second thought as being of any importance or relevance to me.
In fact, this 'discussion' is the first time I've even considered the question, in a very long time.
Perhaps those who think God is separate do so because they think they are separate. I think this is the mistake of dualism. Simply put for my simple mind, there is only everything.
God done it ...or not ...
http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/how.html
eg.
Where did the universe come from?
A: Why did it have to come from anything?
T: Everything has to come from something.
A: Then, you tell me. Where did the universe came from?
T: The universe came from God.
A: Where did God come from?
T: God did not have to come from anything. He always was.
A: Then everything does not have to come from something after all. Perhaps the universe always was.
etc. etc. etc.
but time is an illusion.
I remember Osho using similar arguments to refute a fanatical believer. Looks like you're in good company.
You find God references in Buddhism largely due to the mashing of cultures. Even as some people changed from X to Y (Buddhism) some trappings of their previous culture remain. that is part of why Tibetan Buddhism has some different stuff in it, because of Tibet's previous Bon belief system and culture. Many Buddhists in parts of SW Asia have some Hinduism with them. It doesn't mean Buddha advocated for belief in God but that humans carry their cultural trappings on the raft with them, because going without nothing is uncomfortable into new territory, so we bring with that which makes us feel grounded and then build it into the new place.
Evolution,
Another lie!
Religion says we only come from two people!?
Science says we come from apes!?
Ha! Ha! Ha!
Why is god male?
No, science does not say that. That is the usual fatuous observation made by those whose research is lacking....
Science has clearly indicated that humans and some simians share a common ancestor. There is no question of us coming from apes.
And anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows two things about Adam and Eve:
One: The story of creation is exactly that. A story woven in order to educate and steer the masses into understanding how that particular religion explains the origin of everything. As usual (as with any religion or belief system) the story is both fantastic and flawed.
The Egyptians, Babylonians and other ancient cultures had almost identical stories.
Two: The O/T is very much geared towards the Jewish faith: In fact, the first 5 books are the Jewish Holy scriptures known as The Torah. Christians focus primarily and particularly on the New Testament.
If you're going to pick holes, arm yourself with facts. Thanks.
I can hardly add much to what @federica has already answered above, and rather than pull out the list of suttas where the God point is made -or unmade- I'll point your way to basics.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda03.htm
So the answer is clearly NO.
When in doubt, and since @Fosdick also brought up the word "metaphysics," consult the Potthapada Sutta, DN 9, where all questions related to metaphysical speculation are piled up as "calculated to no profit," since they don't help throw light on the issue of cessation of dukkha.
In his "Buddhist Catechism," Henry Olcott makes several points on Buddhist beliefs, which at the time of its writing were accepted by most schools of Buddhism ( I have the 1915 copy), and in point II he states as fundamental Buddhistic belief:
"The Universe was evolved, not created; and it functions according to law, not according to the caprices of any God."
If any individual who calls himself Buddhist chooses to believe in a God, it is purely out of personal choice, not because of anything inherent in Buddhadhamma that compels him to.
The fact that certain individuals need to believe in an almighty father-figure, aka God, does not mean God necessarily exists.
Edit: I forgot to mention the Parable of the Arrow (MN63), which also alludes to the pointlessness of metaphysical ponderings...
@brianhorlicks So what are you looking to get out of this site? It's a Buddhist site. Where we focus on Buddha and his teachings. Are you remotely interested in any of it, or just wanting to share your random thoughts somewhere? Because there are a lot of places online to do that already.
Hi @DhammaDragon,
I followed the link and read it. While I respect his opinion (and yours) on this topic, this statement stands out:
The second reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is because there does not seem to be any evidence to support this idea.
That does not mean that the Buddha did not believe in God or not. It absolutely could mean that. It could also mean that it was irrelevant to his teachings. It could also mean that his followers did not transcribe his beliefs on God as they felt it was irrelevant. IT could meant that God meant different things to different people. It could mean the Vedic/Hindu Gods. It could mean so many of things. One thing I think we can both agree on is that the Buddha's teachings have no requirement for a "God", and it is irrelevant to the Buddhist Path.
I was in no way challenging your lack of belief in God. You are completely entitled to that belief. I was challenging your statement about Buddhists and what they all believe. Any time absolute statements like that, I think that it can be dangerous. Because I can pull out "Buddhists" who reference God, and you can pull out Buddhists who state absolutely the opposite.
I personally do not see a conflict between believing in the Buddha and a Higher power of some form. In fact, they could be complimentary. You can believe I am wrong. You can believe that I am not really a Buddhist. You can believe that science, Buddhism, and a Higher Power are not complimentary and that I am completely stoned. I guess I am okay with all of that.
I am going to back out of this discussion politely now because I am not sure that there is anywhere else constructive to go. We clearly are slipping past each other here on several points/concepts.
I wish you well on your path.
With respect,
ET.
Buddha did not encourage his followers to believe in god/gods, pray to them, worship them, etc.
The Buddha considered such wonderings, ponderings and questions irrelevant, pointless and unproductive.
He made it clear that such mental machinations brought nothing but vexation and confusion and were a furthermore, simply a diversion from the true objective of his teachings which were focussed on "Stress, the Origin of stress, the elimination of stress and the Way to eliminate stress".
I would surmise, for myself, that such focused cogitation on such an 'unconjecturable' would in and of itself, bring 'stress.'
I have said it before:
A Christian/Jew/Muslim may wholeheartedly devotedly and conscientiously follow their Theistic religion with all their hearts, mind and souls, and incorporate Buddhism quite freely into their practice.
However, it becomes impossible for a Buddhist to wholeheartedly devotedly and conscientiously follow Buddhism with all their hearts, mind and souls, and then incorporate a Theistic religion quite freely to the same degree, if any.
There are some who argue they can do both. Well of course they can.
But only to a certain level of practice in either case.
Then, the two at some point, conflict.
Most who combine the two attempt to either gloss over the discord, maintain that neither affects the other, or simply accept that there are conflicting ideas at times and just step over them as one would a sleeping dog in a doorway....
This is a question I am bound by my position, to second.
I was going to third that position but http://newbuddhist.com/profile/brianhorlicks has stated his outsider status and efforts to 'learn to be human'. Our level of patience and compassion is up to us ...
Patience and Compassion are both here in abundance, as you are well aware. But I have a job to do, @lobster. let me do it. Thanks.
Perhaps while he is here he will learn to extend it to others rather than by laughing at their beliefs in favor of his own. No one I saw made fun of his thoughts or ideas yet he saw fit to mock theirs.
"Evolution,
Another lie!
Religion says we only come from two people!?
Science says we come from apes!?
Ha! Ha! Ha!"
I have patience for ignorance. I have less for willful mockery.
Hi @Federica and @DhammaDragon,
Okay, one more thing to say and then I am really done! I have been thinking a lot about this thread and your responses. It is hard to read tone in emails and postings, so please take my comments/response as speaking in calm voice. I have no intention to judge anyone’s beliefs here.
First, I completely respect both of your opinions and perspectives on “God”. For myself, I feel that the context of the era has a lot to do with the Buddha’s statements. I am not intending to speak down to anyone here, just illustrate my point.
During the era that Siddhartha lived, Hinduism reigned supreme – and part of Hinduism is the rigid caste system. You didn’t have the choices – the options we have today. You were what you were born into, and had no hope of being something else in this lifetime – but if you did it good, you could come back better next time around. The gods and all things religious/spiritual were part of the Brahman caste, and the gods ordered reality accordingly. Breaking away was not really an option – then you were a complete outcast at best and literally completely on your own.
So I aside from being enlightened, I think the Buddha was very wise and smart in his messaging. Rather than take on the caste system and the whole of Hinduism (which would make him heretical at best, or revolutionary at worst) he structured his message to not be in conflict with the status quo. He said – you know what? God, all of that stuff… It is not important. All discussions will do is distract you endlessly. Don’t even go there. Instead, focus on these four truths and use these eight steps to help you realize them. Everything else outside of this scope is not what me teachings cover. I think it was an incredibly shrewd move from a true seeker who knew that if he hit the “authorities” head on, he would lose and his profound message on liberation would not get out to the world. Again though, based on my studies, research, and contemplation – this is my personal belief.
There was an old Jewish Rabbi who was cornered by a budding student who asked “what is the essence of the Torah?” The Rabbi replied that we should treat others the way we wish to be treated – everything else is commentary. Paraphrasing the Dalai Lama here, when asked if he believed in God he responded that it doesn’t really matter what you believe – just treat everybody with compassion and bring good into the world. I think that the Buddha and the four noble truths – maybe the noble eight fold path – those are the core teachings of pretty much all Buddhists. Everything else is commentary – and there are dozens of schools, perspectives, truths, philosophies, out there in the Buddhist world view. Who is to say who is right, who is wrong… who is a Buddhist, who is not? Not a power anyone should have methinks. I don’t think it is fair to imply that if you think this or believe in this, then one is not a Buddhist. I came to Buddhism because of its vast provable practices, compatibility with science, and inclusivism (despite the vast difference between schools).
I will end with the fact that I have a friend who has been a Buddhist for a couple of decades. She is a very experienced mediator. She told me once that when in deep meditation you can enter this very pleasurable state when the boundaries that separate us all melt away. She described it as like “Touching God”. So while I don’t believe that God is a father figure sitting on a cloud who waved his staff and created the universe. God could be the universe. Could be the energy of the universe. Could be Nirvana. I dunno. The word is just a label that can be very distracting because it means something different to everybody. So there are definitely Buddhists out there who believe in some form of higher power. And that is a-ok.
Okay! I am really done now.
Metta to the both of you.
ET
I am in agreement; I don't actually see anywhere, anything I put conflicts with your above address.
In no moment, @EonTrinity, did I take badly your comments and I can't see why you should take mine -nor anyone else's- badly either to the point that you feel that you should back out of the discussion.
This is a discussion, and to be honest, this has been one of the least heated we have had around here.
You simply want to read into Buddhadhamma something that is not there.
The Buddha simply did not care for the existence of a God.
If you need the God variable to add sense to your life, while continuing to practise Buddhism, you can freely do so.
What you can't do is try to read "God" where it is not written.
Nor pass for Buddhism theistic notions which are not upheld by Buddhism.
Buddhism has been around for quite a while, so if the Buddha had ever cared enough for God to add it to Buddhadhamma, somebody would have found that ages ago.
The fact that your friend mentions "Touching God" does not render the meditative experience more theistic.
It is her personal take on the situation. Nothing else. Other people will describe it in different, probably non-theistic terms.
Nirvana is Nirvana.
Energy is energy.
Some of us don't need to translate all spritual experiences and terms to "God."
If there is a reason why God threads are not popular around here is precisely because it's a dead-end street.
Some of us don't believe in God, others do.
You can describe yourself as a theistic Buddhist, if you want, but you can't describe yourself as 100 % Buddhist if you believe in God, the same way I could hardly describe myself as a Catholic atheist.
In some situations, you can't run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.
She is?
I thought she was a cushion. Lobster fails again ...
"One must prepare a comfortable seat with several cushions and embroidered covers, from all that is found in the house, like one who prepares a canopy for a bride. For the Shabbat is a queen and a bride. This is why the masters of the Mishna used to go out on the eve of Shabbat to receive her on the road, and used to say: 'Come, O bride, come, O bride!' And one must sing and rejoice at the table in her honor ... one must receive the Lady with many lighted candles, many enjoyments, beautiful clothes, and a house embellished with many fine appointments ..."
http://opcoa.st/07rsy
... and now back to the revered and Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster (hallowed be her sauciness)
I think this is almost the default position here and the only point I would argue is the same one that was used on me when I used the "G" word to describe a universal consciousness.
God is a proper noun that refers to the Biblical character and that specific character possesses unenlightened qualities such as anger, jealousy and a delusion of starting the universe.
Delving into the Eightfold Path I have found no room for an absolute beginning or a planner but a lot of wiggle room for a universal consciousness.
So on a Buddhist forum you will get less friction if speaking of universal consciousness rather than God. God is who Abraham envisioned telling him to kill his son to test his loyalty. Sounds more like Mara to me.
@brianhorlicks In Buddhism there is no creator god, so that is not an issue for Buddhists.
The only thing we need to focus on are improving our good qualities via meditation ,destroying our bad qualities via meditation and benefiting others as much as we can.
The word "God" is far more than just a label though @EonTrinity . If you go into any random place and shout "who here believes in God?" Do you think you're going to get a bunch of confused people who believe in some sort of unnamed creationary force, or universal concept? Or do you think you'll get people who raise their hands because of their belief in a particular religious system? I certainly know people who believe in God who do not follow any of the Abrahamic religious systems, but for the most part, that is what most people mean and what most people understand when you say "God." You may have any sorts of beliefs and label them God, but don't expect people not to get really confused when you say you don't mean THAT God.
Well, the Biblical studies major is going to step into this one. As a few have pretty much hinted at or said in some capacity or another, God being separate depends on your concept of who God is. Judaism and Islam would stand on God being absolutely transcendent above creation, and absolutely holy, therefore man cannot be in his presence except that he is purified.
With Christians it depends on the exact denomination. For many Protestants, the building is just an aid to faith. God is not separate, though he is still transcendent. He created the universe and is still active in it. Prayers can be said anywhere (don't close your eyes and bow your head behind the wheel), and meditating on scripture can be done by anyone, though emphasis is placed on having a trained leader teach on what scripture means (very important, actually, considering the books of the Bible were originally written mostly in Hebrew and Greek, with smatterings of Aramaic and Chaldean to make it interesting).
Clearly, as most of the posters in this thread have shown, Buddhism is agnostic in nature, and has no desire to expend effort in trying to "ponder the imponderable", a fair enough statement considering no one on this forum was alive at the moment the universe began and therefore lacks any absolute knowledge as to exactly what happened.
When it comes to questions of God, you have to answer for yourself ultimately. The first one to ask is if it is worth your time and effort to try and answer further questions. I had to face death on a very personal and uncomfortable level, so I decided the answer was yes, I needed to answer further questions. If you decide you need to answer further questions, you need to research the position of faith each religion holds for yourself, and all the historical evidence surrounding those positions, and make your decisions based on that. Blind faith is a weak and temporary faith, and no matter what your worldview, theistic, deistic, pantheistic, agnostic or atheist, you are formulating your beliefs with some level of faith.
Thank you so much for your informative and educated response, @bushinoki .
The OP has not returned since April 7th. Of course, should he return to join the discussion, I'll re-open the thread.
Many thanks, and thanks to all for your posts.