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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@TheBeejAbides said:
How do we excuse Martial Arts, then?
Good question! I think martial arts have a number of redeeming features: first of all the idea of discipline, both physical and mental (have to stick with the training), second the idea of formality and courtesy, there is lots of bowing and stopping that goes on (can't continue choking your opponent when he has tapped out), and third the idea of control, almost all of what you do has a certain form and is controlled.
Generally in martial arts you can be using physicality to work out your stress, but if you are doing it to express anger you will usually be called on it and told to go take a breather. The fact that you are expected to perform disciplined movements makes it hard to do while angry, and in fact it tends to lead to controlling ones emotions as well as ones body.
With games, almost none of that happens. The game provides you certain options, but the idea of learning restraint or control almost never shows up. Instead an angry player ends up "raging behind the framework" of the game's control options.
@IchLiebte if you cannot experience feelings and allow them to pass, then you are attaching to them and adding a story to them and choosing to carry it forward. Even if you don't think yet that that is what you are doing. The actual physical effects of emotions are very brief, and if it is lasting hours, days, or longer for you and you cannot gain control then you need to be getting some assistance with dealing with emotions.
Incorrect. I am diagnosed with PTSD. Feelings only get worse with time with this condition. Feelings cannot simply pass when you have this disorder. I just have to work harder on using appropriate skills and outlets.
@IchLiebte except you said nothing about having PTSD and only said you had "anger issues." You seem to have a habit of giving partial information, and then getting upset when people don't understand due to the lack of information.
People with PTSD most certainly can learn to control their feelings. And based on the people who I know who have suffered with PTSD, I don't know that I'd recommend to them that violent video games be the best way for them to relieve that stress.
@karasti Sorry, but I didn't want to get too personal... I don't want to play the victim, so I leave details out a lot. I don't want people to think that I whine too often, and I've already mentioned having issues on other threads. I just don't want to come off with a victim complex or look like a person who is whining all the time about their issues.
My therapist has told me it's healthy. He has a PhD and has been practicing for 30+ years. He's actually the one who introduced me to Buddhism.
I understand that, but people would have a better perspective if you gave the right information. If you are going to mention you have anger issues at all, knowing they stem from PTSD is a rather important side note. Just sayin'. I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't read all the threads. I just don't have time.
@karasti said:
I understand that, but people would have a better perspective if you gave the right information. If you are going to mention you have anger issues at all, knowing they stem from PTSD is a rather important side note. Just sayin'. I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't read all the threads. I just don't have time.
I really am sorry. See, my problem is that I overshare. A lot. It's been detrimental in the past, so I thought I'd keep more to myself on this forum. I thought I had mentioned it in a conversation on a thread with you specifically, is what I meant.
@TheBeejAbides said:
How do we excuse Martial Arts, then?
Good question! I think martial arts have a number of redeeming features: first of all the idea of discipline, both physical and mental (have to stick with the training), second the idea of formality and courtesy, there is lots of bowing and stopping that goes on (can't continue choking your opponent when he has tapped out), and third the idea of control, almost all of what you do has a certain form and is controlled.
Generally in martial arts you can be using physicality to work out your stress, but if you are doing it to express anger you will usually be called on it and told to go take a breather. The fact that you are expected to perform disciplined movements makes it hard to do while angry, and in fact it tends to lead to controlling ones emotions as well as ones body.
With games, almost none of that happens. The game provides you certain options, but the idea of learning restraint or control almost never shows up. Instead an angry player ends up "raging behind the framework" of the game's control options.
I think you are meerly describing your preference, here. There are as many benefits to playing video games as there are to practicing or implementing Martial arts, if done mindfully. I just think that video games are still viewed culturally as anti-social and for nerd types, but are on the verge of pushing into a realm where they are the dominant form of entertainment, world-wide. In 20 years, it will be harder to find someone who has never played a VG than someone who has. There was a time when Martial Arts was the fringe and something traditional was preferred over it by a given community. Time will tell.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@TheBeejAbides said:
How do we excuse Martial Arts, then?
Good question! I think martial arts have a number of redeeming features: first of all the idea of discipline, both physical and mental (have to stick with the training), second the idea of formality and courtesy, there is lots of bowing and stopping that goes on (can't continue choking your opponent when he has tapped out), and third the idea of control, almost all of what you do has a certain form and is controlled.
Generally in martial arts you can be using physicality to work out your stress, but if you are doing it to express anger you will usually be called on it and told to go take a breather. The fact that you are expected to perform disciplined movements makes it hard to do while angry, and in fact it tends to lead to controlling ones emotions as well as ones body.
With games, almost none of that happens. The game provides you certain options, but the idea of learning restraint or control almost never shows up. Instead an angry player ends up "raging behind the framework" of the game's control options.
I think you are meerly describing your preference, here. There are as many benefits to playing video games as there are to practicing or implementing Martial arts, if done mindfully. I just think that video games are still viewed culturally as anti-social and for nerd types, but are on the verge of pushing into a realm where they are the dominant form of entertainment, world-wide. In 20 years, it will be harder to find someone who has never played a VG than someone who has. There was a time when Martial Arts was the fringe and something traditional was preferred over it by a given community. Time will tell.
There are some games where anger issues don't come into it. But the very popular competitive multiplayer formats do cause a lot of anger and upsets. I'm not disputing that it's a very popular medium, just that it isn't a very life positive experience much of the time.
I've looked for a long time into benefits of playing video games - I used to work in the industry - but most of them are things like learning budgeting skills, tactical thinking, sharpening reflexes. From a Buddhist point of view there isn't very much there that could be termed 'beneficial' to the path.
Just because something is seductive and pleasant, especially to kids, doesn't mean that it is a good nutrient to the seeds we carry in our minds.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I can't stand violence of any kind. So I never have and never will play these games. Same reason I don't watch gratuitously violent films, horror movies or sick stuff on the web.
@Kerome- I disagree. I think that the anger is not at all caused by the games themselves. The anger exists within the person already and is merely surfaced by the reaction that someone has to it. Done mindfully, it can be used as a thermometer to your daily self. Some days, nothing can bother you. Other days, the little things can trigger you. It's as valid as any other practice and in that way can be valuable to the "path". It's just not your path, anymore. And that's fine, but it's preference, not truth.
Anger only exists within us if we have planted the seeds and allowed it to grow though, @TheBeejAbides. I mean as something that has taken up residence. We all experience anger, but allowing it to take root is another matter most of the time. Even if a game or movie isn't responsible for causing it, for someone who already has anger problems, are those kinds of activities feeding the right wolf, as the saying goes?
@IchLiebte No need to apologize dear. My frustration isn't your problem. You don't owe me anything. I'm sorry I jumped to conclusions. We all have to do what works for us in figuring out how to navigate Samsara and if it works for you, and you check in with it periodically to make sure it (whatever it is) is still fulfilling your needs, then I most certainly can't and won't tell you that you are doing it wrong.
@federica said:
I can't stand violence of any kind. So I never have and never will play these games. Same reason I don't watch gratuitously violent films, horror movies or sick stuff on the web.
Pure and simple.
Oh you are so good. Let's 'kill' her!
Does that include Tom and Jerry? Gratutous violence, what fun as Tarantino rightly pointed out.
I think this is a personal matter, I feel the highest ideal is not to discriminate between the violence inflicted in bread making and giving a zombie a touch of enlightenment ... http://opcoa.st/0pV29
[... lobster heads for the very naughty corner]
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@TheBeejAbides said: @Kerome- I disagree. I think that the anger is not at all caused by the games themselves.
Well, there are many situations within games that you don't find elsewhere. Some people are upset at losing a game or at seeing some of your long effort come to naught, or at losing multiplayer to another player or being griefed or insulted. These things don't usually happen outside of games. Further the majority of games include elements of violence that trigger adrenaline and your fight-or-flight reactions, and that can often lead to anger as well.
Some days, nothing can bother you. Other days, the little things can trigger you. It's as valid as any other practice and in that way can be valuable to the "path".
I don't think so. The bottom line seems to be that games are at best a waste of time, and often are detrimental to practice. As @karasti pointed out, it's a question of which seeds you choose to water. If you select carefully, you end up with games like No Man's Sky or Journey which are experiential and mechanistically largely neutral, although I think all games might have an element of feeding internal greed.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@federica said:
I can't stand violence of any kind. So I never have and never will play these games. Same reason I don't watch gratuitously violent films, horror movies or sick stuff on the web.
Pure and simple.
Oh you are so good. Let's 'kill' her!
Does that include Tom and Jerry? Gratutous violence, what fun as Tarantino rightly pointed out.
I think this is a personal matter, I feel the highest ideal is not to discriminate between the violence inflicted in bread making and giving a zombie a touch of enlightenment ... http://opcoa.st/0pV29
[... lobster heads for the very naughty corner]
I'd make a distinction between viewing and participating here... My feeling is viewing is a lot less problematic, and the less realistic it is, the less problematic. Certainly my own reactions vary, from Tom and Jerry causing nothing but laughter, to being assaulted in first person by villainous knife-wielding maniacs in Skyrim causing some mild alarm and raised heart-rates.
@Kerome just to add to what you said, normally I'd agree. My physical/stress response to something I participate in is usually greater than just something I am watching. But some things go beyond. For example, I do play elder scrolls games, but because it is so much fantasy there is less emotional connection on any level. However, when we watched the season finale of Walking Dead, I was actually shocked and a bit disturbed at the level my stress system was responding to the final scenes. So disturbed that I am not sure I will watch it anymore. It was the same feeling I have when I wake up in a cold sweat from a horrific nightmare. And I questioned (and still question) why I'd put myself through that. Because of the character development on that and other shows, the connection is greater than to fantasy games to me even though I of course still know it is all pretend. So the accompanying reaction is great as well. It was not pleasurable or entertaining in the least for me. Just horrifying and honestly bordering on sickening.
If you select carefully, you end up with games like No Man's Sky or Journey which are experiential and mechanistically largely neutral, although I think all games might have an element of feeding internal greed.
Again, you are exhibitting preference. I've played Journey (LOVED IT!) and I am playing No Man's Sky right now and am loving it too. But declaring those games as "neutral" and therefore "acceptably Buddhist" is not at all based in fact. It's preference. Different people react differently to different games. I am comfortable seeing this differently than you. Lol.
As far as them being a distraction, i see them as no more or less a distraction than this very website. If your point is that we should not play games with animated violence in them because they impeed our progress towards Enlightenment or learning kindness, then i also categorically disagree. I am a far kinder and more honest person than i was in the past. I've never stopped playing video games since childhood. I receive the information differently now. And i play all types of games.
Whenever i feel frustration/anger/disatisfaction arise when i am playing a game, i stop playing and then i examine where the frustration is coming from. It always proves to come from my ego, sourced in my 3D life. If anything, VG's remind me that i am not, in fact, enlightened and still have a ways to go. They don't allow me to get full of myself. They are humbling, at times.
That, and i find TV and movies to be utterly boring. If i'm not in the mood to sit quietly, i'm pressing START to CONTINUE. Cha cha cha!
Whenever i feel frustration/anger/disatisfaction arise when i am playing a game, i stop playing and then i examine where the frustration is coming from. It always proves to come from my ego, sourced in my 3D life. If anything, VG's remind me that i am not, in fact, enlightened and still have a ways to go. They don't allow me to get full of myself. They are humbling, at times.
If you have that degree of mindfulness, bravo. I don't at present. Watching a film or playing a game mindfully is too dualistic ...
It is much easier for me to treat reality as a VR game.
Here are the rules ... mmm ... I had them somewhere safe ... mmm ... may have lost the plot ...
^^. LOL. Of course there are people with more mindfulness, greater realisation, more Bhumi points, more jhana than the average Theravadin. Unless you are playing some other game?
@Kerome said:
If you select carefully, you end up with games like No Man's Sky or Journey which are experiential and mechanistically largely neutral, although I think all games might have an element of feeding internal greed.
Again, you are exhibitting preference. I've played Journey (LOVED IT!) and I am playing No Man's Sky right now and am loving it too. But declaring those games as "neutral" and therefore "acceptably Buddhist" is not at all based in fact. It's preference.
I made a clear case for which games are likely to present a greater hindrance to practice and why. Not a matter of "personal preference" in gaming, it is based on an examination of the underlying factors. If you disagree so verbally, please do state why games are beneficial to the path.
As far as them being a distraction, i see them as no more or less a distraction than this very website.
If you go a little bit further up this thread, and into the threads referenced in the OP you will find a fairly extensive discussion on why the Buddha spoke out against game playing (for monks) as a waste of effort. This website carries quite a bit of dharma among the other bits which makes it far superior as a contributor to the path than most games which are thinly disguised gear grinds.
I am a far kinder and more honest person than i was in the past. I've never stopped playing video games since childhood.
And so did I, and in the end I found them to be a hindrance. Just because you may be an exception doesn't mean that games on the whole are not a hindrance. And further, you may want to look at where your kindness comes from - I'd bet it isn't games.
Whenever i feel frustration/anger/disatisfaction arise when i am playing a game, i stop playing and then i examine where the frustration is coming from. It always proves to come from my ego, sourced in my 3D life.
And similarly I can go to cage fighting matches and try to skilfully examine my responses, that doesn't mean I'm doing the right thing from a practice point of view. Am I watering the right seeds? Am I supporting a cruel and violent industry by spending my money in that way? Is it actually beneficial, or am I just treading water using my insight?
@Kerome - i hear what you are saying. I really do. But i am not a monk. I don't even call myself a Buddhist. Lol. I use Buddhism as a tool. I use video games as a tool. I use a paint brush as a tool.
I know that there is an ultimate goal with buddhism. There are also goals with games. But that doesn't mean that you can't find small bits of satisfaction or visceral fun on your journey. It's not all about the end game for me. I like enjoying the ride. And it's not for me to say how you perceive violence in video games. But i clearly stated how i see them as benificial, which you dismissed in the last disected paragraph. If you've moved past games, congrats, i guess? I haven't. They keep me out of real world trouble. I think that's the first step on any good path.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Thanks @TheBeejAbides that makes sense. For me at this point this discussion is more about getting insight into my livelihood... Having worked in games, do I want to return there, is it a positive form of employment or could I be using my time in better ways? It's not an easy question to come to.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I think like movies and tv, it depends on the philosophy behind the game. There's use of violence for protection and going on long journeys to rescue somebody or retrieve vital medicine. There are also games where you are timed to see how many random people you can gun down and where you kill prostitutes to get strength.
I like Tetris and online pool. Zumas Revenge was pretty cool too.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@David said:
I think like movies and tv, it depends on the philosophy behind the game. There's use of violence for protection and going on long journeys to rescue somebody or retrieve vital medicine. There are also games where you are timed to see how many random people you can gun down and where you kill prostitutes to get strength.
I think there is a danger of confusing the ultimate morality of an act with its skilfulness in terms of practice. Something like The Witcher 3 has quests that revolve around rescue, but to say that that is ultimately skillful is hard, you are performing a virtual good deed through much virtual violence. The balance still seems to be negative - you are subjecting yourself to performing a lot of real-seeming violence for the sake of a single virtual goal.
I like Tetris and online pool. Zumas Revenge was pretty cool too.
I occasionally still play a little Hearthstone or Bejeweled, but it's like one or two games a month or so. I still find the puzzle-like aspects of playing games "fun", even though on an emotional level it does very little for me.
I can appreciate the karmic pitfalls of violent video gaming. I have observed how I become aggressive and frustrated when I am thwarted from my goals, or defeated in battle, in a game. Yet in spite of this I continue to play these games. Why?
Partly because I don't know what I'd do with myself. How do I fill those countless hours? TV, movies and books also filled with 'action' and violence? I've tried other hobbies and they are not as engaging as video games. I'm not at a point in my practice where I can fill multiple hours in the day with meditation and selfless actions. Like @karasti and some others here, I've been playing video games since an early age and self-identify as a 'gamer'. What do I talk with the guys at work about (sports bores me to tears)?
I also fear boredom, and having to listen to that nagging voice of anxiety in my head. Will I not be able to make the mortgage or the car payment? Nothing can crush that anxiety like a good role-playing game. Become someone significant who saves the world and doesn't have to fear living on the street - if only for an hour or three. Power fantasies and forgetting your troubles are an important part of the allure of video games. And they're so much more effective at it than any other media currently available.
So escapism and to some extent identity continue to tie me to video games. Sigh. I guess it's better than being hooked on heroin, right?
My best friend is playing No Man's Sky> @nakazcid said:
I can appreciate the karmic pitfalls of violent video gaming. I have observed how I become aggressive and frustrated when I am thwarted from my goals, or defeated in battle, in a game. Yet in spite of this I continue to play these games. Why?
Partly because I don't know what I'd do with myself. How do I fill those countless hours? TV, movies and books also filled with 'action' and violence? I've tried other hobbies and they are not as engaging as video games. I'm not at a point in my practice where I can fill multiple hours in the day with meditation and selfless actions. Like @karasti and some others here, I've been playing video games since an early age and self-identify as a 'gamer'. What do I talk with the guys at work about (sports bores me to tears)?
I also fear boredom, and having to listen to that nagging voice of anxiety in my head. Will I not be able to make the mortgage or the car payment? Nothing can crush that anxiety like a good role-playing game. Become someone significant who saves the world and doesn't have to fear living on the street - if only for an hour or three. Power fantasies and forgetting your troubles are an important part of the allure of video games. And they're so much more effective at it than any other media currently available.
So escapism and to some extent identity continue to tie me to video games. Sigh. I guess it's better than being hooked on heroin, right?
Why is this a problem?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I can appreciate the karmic pitfalls of violent video gaming. I have observed how I become aggressive and frustrated when I am thwarted from my goals, or defeated in battle, in a game. Yet in spite of this I continue to play these games. Why?
Partly because I don't know what I'd do with myself. How do I fill those countless hours? TV, movies and books also filled with 'action' and violence? I've tried other hobbies and they are not as engaging as video games. I'm not at a point in my practice where I can fill multiple hours in the day with meditation and selfless actions. Like @karasti and some others here, I've been playing video games since an early age and self-identify as a 'gamer'. What do I talk with the guys at work about (sports bores me to tears)?
I also fear boredom, and having to listen to that nagging voice of anxiety in my head. Will I not be able to make the mortgage or the car payment? Nothing can crush that anxiety like a good role-playing game. Become someone significant who saves the world and doesn't have to fear living on the street - if only for an hour or three. Power fantasies and forgetting your troubles are an important part of the allure of video games. And they're so much more effective at it than any other media currently available.
So escapism and to some extent identity continue to tie me to video games. Sigh. I guess it's better than being hooked on heroin, right?
Why is this a problem?
I'd say it isn't a real, lasting solution. Its only suppressing or avoiding the underlying issues involved like boredom (aka, attachment to exciting stimulus) or anxiety and doesn't deal with the underlying causes.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@nakazcid said:
I can appreciate the karmic pitfalls of violent video gaming. I have observed how I become aggressive and frustrated when I am thwarted from my goals, or defeated in battle, in a game. Yet in spite of this I continue to play these games. Why?
Partly because I don't know what I'd do with myself. How do I fill those countless hours? TV, movies and books also filled with 'action' and violence? I've tried other hobbies and they are not as engaging as video games. I'm not at a point in my practice where I can fill multiple hours in the day with meditation and selfless actions. Like @karasti and some others here, I've been playing video games since an early age and self-identify as a 'gamer'. What do I talk with the guys at work about (sports bores me to tears)?
I also fear boredom, and having to listen to that nagging voice of anxiety in my head. Will I not be able to make the mortgage or the car payment? Nothing can crush that anxiety like a good role-playing game. Become someone significant who saves the world and doesn't have to fear living on the street - if only for an hour or three. Power fantasies and forgetting your troubles are an important part of the allure of video games. And they're so much more effective at it than any other media currently available.
So escapism and to some extent identity continue to tie me to video games. Sigh. I guess it's better than being hooked on heroin, right?
At least I am not drinking shorts, taking heroin, playing video games, wasting time etc.
As a lobster I am addicted to fish. I wake up. The search begins.
I want to be a Dudette or Buddha. First must stop injecting and snorting fish protein. At least I am not a vegetarian 'seaweed hugger'.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@nakazcid said:
I can appreciate the karmic pitfalls of violent video gaming. I have observed how I become aggressive and frustrated when I am thwarted from my goals, or defeated in battle, in a game. Yet in spite of this I continue to play these games. Why?
Partly because I don't know what I'd do with myself. How do I fill those countless hours? TV, movies and books also filled with 'action' and violence? I've tried other hobbies and they are not as engaging as video games. I'm not at a point in my practice where I can fill multiple hours in the day with meditation and selfless actions. Like @karasti and some others here, I've been playing video games since an early age and self-identify as a 'gamer'. What do I talk with the guys at work about (sports bores me to tears)?
I also fear boredom, and having to listen to that nagging voice of anxiety in my head. Will I not be able to make the mortgage or the car payment? Nothing can crush that anxiety like a good role-playing game. Become someone significant who saves the world and doesn't have to fear living on the street - if only for an hour or three. Power fantasies and forgetting your troubles are an important part of the allure of video games. And they're so much more effective at it than any other media currently available.
So escapism and to some extent identity continue to tie me to video games. Sigh. I guess it's better than being hooked on heroin, right?
In a way you are answering your own question. Video games are masking a whole bunch of other issues, deeper questions that you have about life, anxieties that are a sign of deeper clinging to some goal. These deeper questions are the reason why you are not at peace... There is a turmoil in your mind, and the distractions of action in a game are allowing you to set them aside for something the mind experiences as 'higher priority'.
I think you might find tackling these deeper issues and taking a next step in your practice to be very rewarding. This is where the real work begins, living a life closer to meaningful, life-positive existence is something I believe is possible, though it takes work.
@nakazcid said:
I can appreciate the karmic pitfalls of violent video gaming. I have observed how I become aggressive and frustrated when I am thwarted from my goals, or defeated in battle, in a game. Yet in spite of this I continue to play these games. Why?
Partly because I don't know what I'd do with myself. How do I fill those countless hours? TV, movies and books also filled with 'action' and violence? I've tried other hobbies and they are not as engaging as video games. I'm not at a point in my practice where I can fill multiple hours in the day with meditation and selfless actions. Like @karasti and some others here, I've been playing video games since an early age and self-identify as a 'gamer'. What do I talk with the guys at work about (sports bores me to tears)?
I also fear boredom, and having to listen to that nagging voice of anxiety in my head. Will I not be able to make the mortgage or the car payment? Nothing can crush that anxiety like a good role-playing game. Become someone significant who saves the world and doesn't have to fear living on the street - if only for an hour or three. Power fantasies and forgetting your troubles are an important part of the allure of video games. And they're so much more effective at it than any other media currently available.
So escapism and to some extent identity continue to tie me to video games. Sigh. I guess it's better than being hooked on heroin, right?
No.
My brother is a former heroin addict. Do not say this is as serious, lmao. I'd rather he play video games than shoot up. And he does. And I'm no longer afraid of him being found dead in the street. He did have a girlfriend who also did heroin and he repeatedly had to "bring her back to life" after she stopped breathing in her sleep. Every night. Multiple times a night. This is nooooot the same thing aaaat all.
PLUS you don't have to go down to the methadone clinic every day for like 6 months if you want to stop playing video games.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I was referring more to the mind-set than the substance abuse.
Still, what's wrong with a hobby we may use as a crutch? Not necessarily attachment, but a crutch. You can't possibly believe that playing video games and doing heroin is the same mind-set.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2016
Oh yes, absolutely, I am. To different degrees, yes. A wave has the same motion as a tsunami. There's a difference in the impact and consequences, but each one is propelled and perpetuated by the same force.
And there are trained psychologists and counsellors who SPECIALISE in helping those addicted to Computer games. An addiction to computer games can destroy lives and ruin relationships.
It's not WHAT people are addicted to. It's the mind's capacity to resist or otherwise.
I agree with @federica. Gambling, sex addiction, video game addiction, sardine fetish (a serious problem for lobsters) all work on trigger reward responses.
It is a programmed behaviour pattern. What would you or you brother do if not playing games? Be addicted to harder drugs, true. How to wean oneself off softer options?
Buddhist addiction! Yep iz plan! We haz a better crutch ...
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited August 2016
Twelve years ago I would have agreed with @IchLiebte (mainly because the alternative would have been to view myself as a virtual crack-peddler). But then World of Warcraft came along and I got seriously sucked in, I must have played 5 hours a day on workdays and 10-12 hrs on weekends, so maybe 45 hrs a week on top of a regular 9-5 job in the games industry. After nine months of that I was forced to acknowledge it as a serious "habit", in the not so good sense. It taught me games can become a serious problem.
These days I reckon most games but especially MMOs are slightly addictive, as a lot of things are slightly addictive - sugar, cannabis, alcohol, games kind of belong in that list. It can really get a hold on you when you are using it to mask deeper problems, you can become emotionally quite attached to your favorite games. It's mostly an escape, but you end up attaching such importance to these things that it becomes huge in your mind.
How did I kick the WoW habit? For a while I played casually, I'd come back after the release of each expansion and play for a few months. Eventually I gave all my gold to the guild, disenchanted my raid epic gear and left my characters standing naked in front of the Ironforge bank. I last logged out during the Cataclysm era.
Do you think some people have addictive personalities?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2016
Some more than others, yes, definitely. It might well be an inherited gene.... my ex-neighbour's husband (years ago) had an alcoholic mother. His sister also became an alcoholic. he never touched the stuff. Point-blank refused, because he saw how it killed his mother and damaged his sister. However, could he gamble...Oh yes, he could....
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@SpinyNorman said:
Do you think some people have addictive personalities?
I do think so, yes. It depends on how much you buy into the reward cycle, I think, and how attached you get to desiring certain things. My family is not particularly vulnerable to addiction, a few smoke and my dad likes drink a bit more than is good for him but he has it under control. But even if you are not vulnerable you can get sucked in, it's just a matter of degree.
Personally I don't have problems with most forms of addiction - alcohol, gambling, smoking, none of them really touch me though I have carefully steered clear of street drugs. Food is probably my biggest vice. For me what really did it with WoW was the social rewards, being wanted in groups and raids as a healer was a very nice feeling, and the gear and improving your character aspects. I spent a lot of time on understanding the systems, optimising things, getting the best bits I could. It appealed to my collecting instinct.
I think it has to do with a lot of factors. I don't know if I'd say it's as simple as "personality" though it could be. I think every single person I've ever known who became addicted to anything (in this case mostly drugs and alcohol) were people with mental health problems. They were also overwhelmingly very creative people. My ex was an alcoholic and prescription drug addict. It killed him when he was 35. We were together for 14 years, so I saw a lot of stuff in that time. Of my 4 grandparents, 3 of them were alcoholics. My aunt and uncle are alcoholics. 2 of their 4 adult children are addicts. My ex's dad was an alcoholic. It absolutely follows a genetic line. They might try it and end up addicted swiftly. But even among them, mental health was an issue (which also has a strong genetic link, of course).
Most of what I have noted is that for whatever reason, they all, every last one of them, lacked whatever tools they needed to cope with the world around them. Some of them were highly sensitive people who just couldn't deal with the world at all. Some of them needed more support and resources to be able to get through. All of them suffered, diagnosed or not, with depression and anxiety (at very high levels) and almost every one of them was self-medicating in their addictions. Escaping. Not wanting to deal with their feelings and wanting to take something, anything, to make them go away. They cannot deal with any level of discomfort. Often they have suffered various abuses, neglect and other things. And often these aren't extreme levels where the parents didn't care for them, but simply the parents didn't know what their kids needed, and their needs went unmet. Until they found ways to hie the discomfort of that.
So yes, I think games can definitely fall into that exact same mindset for the same type of people who are looking to escape from feeling uncomfortable. They distract themselves from what they are feeling by focusing it on something else and never dealing with the root of the feelings. Are games as inherently dangerous as drugs? Not usually, most people won't drop dead from a bad game like they will a bad dose of heroin. But some do, they neglect themselves so fully that they have actually died as a result. The results might not always be the same, but the mindset is.
@federica said:
Oh yes, absolutely, I am. To different degrees, yes. A wave has the same motion as a tsunami. There's a difference in the impact and consequences, but each one is propelled and perpetuated by the same force.
And there are trained psychologists and counsellors who SPECIALISE in helping those addicted to Computer games. An addiction to computer games can destroy lives and ruin relationships.
It's not WHAT people are addicted to. It's the mind's capacity to resist or otherwise.
I know it can be an addiction, but it is not the same force. I haven't met people playing video games to forget their childhood sexual abuse. It's not the same thing.
Just because you don't play video games doesn't mean you get to play holier-than-thou, or pretend psychologist for that matter.
@Kerome said:
Twelve years ago I would have agreed with @IchLiebte (mainly because the alternative would have been to view myself as a virtual crack-peddler). But then World of Warcraft came along and I got seriously sucked in, I must have played 5 hours a day on workdays and 10-12 hrs on weekends, so maybe 45 hrs a week on top of a regular 9-5 job in the games industry. After nine months of that I was forced to acknowledge it as a serious "habit", in the not so good sense. It taught me games can become a serious problem.
These days I reckon most games but especially MMOs are slightly addictive, as a lot of things are slightly addictive - sugar, cannabis, alcohol, games kind of belong in that list. It can really get a hold on you when you are using it to mask deeper problems, you can become emotionally quite attached to your favorite games. It's mostly an escape, but you end up attaching such importance to these things that it becomes huge in your mind.
How did I kick the WoW habit? For a while I played casually, I'd come back after the release of each expansion and play for a few months. Eventually I gave all my gold to the guild, disenchanted my raid epic gear and left my characters standing naked in front of the Ironforge bank. I last logged out during the Cataclysm era.
How is being addicted to reading books any different? I aways had my head in books as a kid for escapism. Is that bad too?
This whole thread is becoming intensely judgmental.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
First of all, please read the link I gave, thoroughly.
Secondly, don't be so bloody rude to me - or anyone else on this forum - in that way again.
You know next to nothing about me, or anyone else, so don't assume the privilege of being able to deride someone in such a dismissive manner.
Clear?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Kerome said:
Twelve years ago I would have agreed with @IchLiebte (mainly because the alternative would have been to view myself as a virtual crack-peddler). But then World of Warcraft came along and I got seriously sucked in, I must have played 5 hours a day on workdays and 10-12 hrs on weekends, so maybe 45 hrs a week on top of a regular 9-5 job in the games industry. After nine months of that I was forced to acknowledge it as a serious "habit", in the not so good sense. It taught me games can become a serious problem.
These days I reckon most games but especially MMOs are slightly addictive, as a lot of things are slightly addictive - sugar, cannabis, alcohol, games kind of belong in that list. It can really get a hold on you when you are using it to mask deeper problems, you can become emotionally quite attached to your favorite games. It's mostly an escape, but you end up attaching such importance to these things that it becomes huge in your mind.
How did I kick the WoW habit? For a while I played casually, I'd come back after the release of each expansion and play for a few months. Eventually I gave all my gold to the guild, disenchanted my raid epic gear and left my characters standing naked in front of the Ironforge bank. I last logged out during the Cataclysm era.
How is being addicted to reading books any different? I aways had my head in books as a kid for escapism. Is that bad too?
This whole thread is becoming intensely judgmental.
And you are clearly reading judgement into posts where there is none. Nobody has made any direct accusations, or criticised you belittled you or trivialised your comments. This is a general thread and you are way too touchy.
I think it may be a good idea for you to cool off for a while.
Anything, and I do mean ANYTHING can be an addiction. Even things we normally view as healthy things. Exercise, food, drinking water, and yes, reading. Being immersed in something doesn't mean it is an addiction. Addiction is an entirely different thing, as a result of something going wrong in the brain/body chemical connection. Someone who is not an addict won't become one by reading a lot. Someone who is an addict can be addicted to reading. Many people who were prior addicted to drugs, find their way out of that and become addicted, instead, to exercise. I know a woman who almost died more than one from her drug addictions. She now runs races 100+ miles. And she runs the distance of a marathon or more every single day. Other runners are the same. They might no longer be addicted to drugs, which is good. But they are still addicted to running. And they will tell you that they are. They just have decided it is a healthier choice than the alternative rather than to try to completely fight their addictive "personalities." Their type of running completely shuts down their organs to the point they frequently need IVs after races and pee blood during the race. It might be better than doing drugs, but I'm not convinced it's exactly healthy and no longer an addiction. Here is an article on one of them. http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/fitness/exercise/how-50yearold-junkie-replaced-meth-addiction-with-ultrarunning/news-story/9b773ee67ffecf27f5c6f3467570fa20
Good point from @karasti - Has anyone OD'd on reading?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@Kerome said:
Twelve years ago I would have agreed with @IchLiebte (mainly because the alternative would have been to view myself as a virtual crack-peddler). But then World of Warcraft came along and I got seriously sucked in, I must have played 5 hours a day on workdays and 10-12 hrs on weekends, so maybe 45 hrs a week on top of a regular 9-5 job in the games industry. After nine months of that I was forced to acknowledge it as a serious "habit", in the not so good sense. It taught me games can become a serious problem.
These days I reckon most games but especially MMOs are slightly addictive, as a lot of things are slightly addictive - sugar, cannabis, alcohol, games kind of belong in that list. It can really get a hold on you when you are using it to mask deeper problems, you can become emotionally quite attached to your favorite games. It's mostly an escape, but you end up attaching such importance to these things that it becomes huge in your mind.
How did I kick the WoW habit? For a while I played casually, I'd come back after the release of each expansion and play for a few months. Eventually I gave all my gold to the guild, disenchanted my raid epic gear and left my characters standing naked in front of the Ironforge bank. I last logged out during the Cataclysm era.
Alliance sux, FOR THE HORDE! I played a healer too, a blood elf priest. The commitment needed for raiding is serious burnout.
On a different note, this research into the causes of addiction is really interesting
Haha, I have a level 100 beast master hunter but I don't like how much they changed it with the new expansion coming and am kind of regretting getting the expansion. But my husband and I play together in a small guild with friends. Then we suspend our accounts when we get bored, lol. Which happens a lot.
Comments
Good question! I think martial arts have a number of redeeming features: first of all the idea of discipline, both physical and mental (have to stick with the training), second the idea of formality and courtesy, there is lots of bowing and stopping that goes on (can't continue choking your opponent when he has tapped out), and third the idea of control, almost all of what you do has a certain form and is controlled.
Generally in martial arts you can be using physicality to work out your stress, but if you are doing it to express anger you will usually be called on it and told to go take a breather. The fact that you are expected to perform disciplined movements makes it hard to do while angry, and in fact it tends to lead to controlling ones emotions as well as ones body.
With games, almost none of that happens. The game provides you certain options, but the idea of learning restraint or control almost never shows up. Instead an angry player ends up "raging behind the framework" of the game's control options.
Incorrect. I am diagnosed with PTSD. Feelings only get worse with time with this condition. Feelings cannot simply pass when you have this disorder. I just have to work harder on using appropriate skills and outlets.
@IchLiebte except you said nothing about having PTSD and only said you had "anger issues." You seem to have a habit of giving partial information, and then getting upset when people don't understand due to the lack of information.
People with PTSD most certainly can learn to control their feelings. And based on the people who I know who have suffered with PTSD, I don't know that I'd recommend to them that violent video games be the best way for them to relieve that stress.
@karasti Sorry, but I didn't want to get too personal... I don't want to play the victim, so I leave details out a lot. I don't want people to think that I whine too often, and I've already mentioned having issues on other threads. I just don't want to come off with a victim complex or look like a person who is whining all the time about their issues.
My therapist has told me it's healthy. He has a PhD and has been practicing for 30+ years. He's actually the one who introduced me to Buddhism.
I understand that, but people would have a better perspective if you gave the right information. If you are going to mention you have anger issues at all, knowing they stem from PTSD is a rather important side note. Just sayin'. I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't read all the threads. I just don't have time.
I really am sorry. See, my problem is that I overshare. A lot. It's been detrimental in the past, so I thought I'd keep more to myself on this forum. I thought I had mentioned it in a conversation on a thread with you specifically, is what I meant.
I think you are meerly describing your preference, here. There are as many benefits to playing video games as there are to practicing or implementing Martial arts, if done mindfully. I just think that video games are still viewed culturally as anti-social and for nerd types, but are on the verge of pushing into a realm where they are the dominant form of entertainment, world-wide. In 20 years, it will be harder to find someone who has never played a VG than someone who has. There was a time when Martial Arts was the fringe and something traditional was preferred over it by a given community. Time will tell.
There are some games where anger issues don't come into it. But the very popular competitive multiplayer formats do cause a lot of anger and upsets. I'm not disputing that it's a very popular medium, just that it isn't a very life positive experience much of the time.
I've looked for a long time into benefits of playing video games - I used to work in the industry - but most of them are things like learning budgeting skills, tactical thinking, sharpening reflexes. From a Buddhist point of view there isn't very much there that could be termed 'beneficial' to the path.
Just because something is seductive and pleasant, especially to kids, doesn't mean that it is a good nutrient to the seeds we carry in our minds.
I can't stand violence of any kind. So I never have and never will play these games. Same reason I don't watch gratuitously violent films, horror movies or sick stuff on the web.
Pure and simple.
@Kerome- I disagree. I think that the anger is not at all caused by the games themselves. The anger exists within the person already and is merely surfaced by the reaction that someone has to it. Done mindfully, it can be used as a thermometer to your daily self. Some days, nothing can bother you. Other days, the little things can trigger you. It's as valid as any other practice and in that way can be valuable to the "path". It's just not your path, anymore. And that's fine, but it's preference, not truth.
Anger only exists within us if we have planted the seeds and allowed it to grow though, @TheBeejAbides. I mean as something that has taken up residence. We all experience anger, but allowing it to take root is another matter most of the time. Even if a game or movie isn't responsible for causing it, for someone who already has anger problems, are those kinds of activities feeding the right wolf, as the saying goes?
@IchLiebte No need to apologize dear. My frustration isn't your problem. You don't owe me anything. I'm sorry I jumped to conclusions. We all have to do what works for us in figuring out how to navigate Samsara and if it works for you, and you check in with it periodically to make sure it (whatever it is) is still fulfilling your needs, then I most certainly can't and won't tell you that you are doing it wrong.
Oh you are so good. Let's 'kill' her!
Does that include Tom and Jerry? Gratutous violence, what fun as Tarantino rightly pointed out.
I think this is a personal matter, I feel the highest ideal is not to discriminate between the violence inflicted in bread making and giving a zombie a touch of enlightenment ...
http://opcoa.st/0pV29
[... lobster heads for the very naughty corner]
Well, there are many situations within games that you don't find elsewhere. Some people are upset at losing a game or at seeing some of your long effort come to naught, or at losing multiplayer to another player or being griefed or insulted. These things don't usually happen outside of games. Further the majority of games include elements of violence that trigger adrenaline and your fight-or-flight reactions, and that can often lead to anger as well.
I don't think so. The bottom line seems to be that games are at best a waste of time, and often are detrimental to practice. As @karasti pointed out, it's a question of which seeds you choose to water. If you select carefully, you end up with games like No Man's Sky or Journey which are experiential and mechanistically largely neutral, although I think all games might have an element of feeding internal greed.
I'd make a distinction between viewing and participating here... My feeling is viewing is a lot less problematic, and the less realistic it is, the less problematic. Certainly my own reactions vary, from Tom and Jerry causing nothing but laughter, to being assaulted in first person by villainous knife-wielding maniacs in Skyrim causing some mild alarm and raised heart-rates.
@Kerome just to add to what you said, normally I'd agree. My physical/stress response to something I participate in is usually greater than just something I am watching. But some things go beyond. For example, I do play elder scrolls games, but because it is so much fantasy there is less emotional connection on any level. However, when we watched the season finale of Walking Dead, I was actually shocked and a bit disturbed at the level my stress system was responding to the final scenes. So disturbed that I am not sure I will watch it anymore. It was the same feeling I have when I wake up in a cold sweat from a horrific nightmare. And I questioned (and still question) why I'd put myself through that. Because of the character development on that and other shows, the connection is greater than to fantasy games to me even though I of course still know it is all pretend. So the accompanying reaction is great as well. It was not pleasurable or entertaining in the least for me. Just horrifying and honestly bordering on sickening.
If you select carefully, you end up with games like No Man's Sky or Journey which are experiential and mechanistically largely neutral, although I think all games might have an element of feeding internal greed.
Again, you are exhibitting preference. I've played Journey (LOVED IT!) and I am playing No Man's Sky right now and am loving it too. But declaring those games as "neutral" and therefore "acceptably Buddhist" is not at all based in fact. It's preference. Different people react differently to different games. I am comfortable seeing this differently than you. Lol.
As far as them being a distraction, i see them as no more or less a distraction than this very website. If your point is that we should not play games with animated violence in them because they impeed our progress towards Enlightenment or learning kindness, then i also categorically disagree. I am a far kinder and more honest person than i was in the past. I've never stopped playing video games since childhood. I receive the information differently now. And i play all types of games.
Whenever i feel frustration/anger/disatisfaction arise when i am playing a game, i stop playing and then i examine where the frustration is coming from. It always proves to come from my ego, sourced in my 3D life. If anything, VG's remind me that i am not, in fact, enlightened and still have a ways to go. They don't allow me to get full of myself. They are humbling, at times.
That, and i find TV and movies to be utterly boring. If i'm not in the mood to sit quietly, i'm pressing START to CONTINUE. Cha cha cha!
If you have that degree of mindfulness, bravo. I don't at present. Watching a film or playing a game mindfully is too dualistic ...
It is much easier for me to treat reality as a VR game.
Here are the rules ... mmm ... I had them somewhere safe ... mmm ... may have lost the plot ...
@lobster - degree of mindfulness? We rank that now? Nice! Maybe i'll get top score!
^^. LOL. Of course there are people with more mindfulness, greater realisation, more Bhumi points, more jhana than the average Theravadin. Unless you are playing some other game?
... And now back to the musical score ...
For students of the Dairy Lama it depends on how many Tescos club-card points you have accumulated.
I made a clear case for which games are likely to present a greater hindrance to practice and why. Not a matter of "personal preference" in gaming, it is based on an examination of the underlying factors. If you disagree so verbally, please do state why games are beneficial to the path.
If you go a little bit further up this thread, and into the threads referenced in the OP you will find a fairly extensive discussion on why the Buddha spoke out against game playing (for monks) as a waste of effort. This website carries quite a bit of dharma among the other bits
which makes it far superior as a contributor to the path than most games which are thinly disguised gear grinds.
And so did I, and in the end I found them to be a hindrance. Just because you may be an exception doesn't mean that games on the whole are not a hindrance. And further, you may want to look at where your kindness comes from - I'd bet it isn't games.
And similarly I can go to cage fighting matches and try to skilfully examine my responses, that doesn't mean I'm doing the right thing from a practice point of view. Am I watering the right seeds? Am I supporting a cruel and violent industry by spending my money in that way? Is it actually beneficial, or am I just treading water using my insight?
@Kerome - i hear what you are saying. I really do. But i am not a monk. I don't even call myself a Buddhist. Lol. I use Buddhism as a tool. I use video games as a tool. I use a paint brush as a tool.
I know that there is an ultimate goal with buddhism. There are also goals with games. But that doesn't mean that you can't find small bits of satisfaction or visceral fun on your journey. It's not all about the end game for me. I like enjoying the ride. And it's not for me to say how you perceive violence in video games. But i clearly stated how i see them as benificial, which you dismissed in the last disected paragraph. If you've moved past games, congrats, i guess? I haven't. They keep me out of real world trouble. I think that's the first step on any good path.
Thanks @TheBeejAbides that makes sense. For me at this point this discussion is more about getting insight into my livelihood... Having worked in games, do I want to return there, is it a positive form of employment or could I be using my time in better ways? It's not an easy question to come to.
I think like movies and tv, it depends on the philosophy behind the game. There's use of violence for protection and going on long journeys to rescue somebody or retrieve vital medicine. There are also games where you are timed to see how many random people you can gun down and where you kill prostitutes to get strength.
I like Tetris and online pool. Zumas Revenge was pretty cool too.
I think there is a danger of confusing the ultimate morality of an act with its skilfulness in terms of practice. Something like The Witcher 3 has quests that revolve around rescue, but to say that that is ultimately skillful is hard, you are performing a virtual good deed through much virtual violence. The balance still seems to be negative - you are subjecting yourself to performing a lot of real-seeming violence for the sake of a single virtual goal.
I occasionally still play a little Hearthstone or Bejeweled, but it's like one or two games a month or so. I still find the puzzle-like aspects of playing games "fun", even though on an emotional level it does very little for me.
I can appreciate the karmic pitfalls of violent video gaming. I have observed how I become aggressive and frustrated when I am thwarted from my goals, or defeated in battle, in a game. Yet in spite of this I continue to play these games. Why?
Partly because I don't know what I'd do with myself. How do I fill those countless hours? TV, movies and books also filled with 'action' and violence? I've tried other hobbies and they are not as engaging as video games. I'm not at a point in my practice where I can fill multiple hours in the day with meditation and selfless actions. Like @karasti and some others here, I've been playing video games since an early age and self-identify as a 'gamer'. What do I talk with the guys at work about (sports bores me to tears)?
I also fear boredom, and having to listen to that nagging voice of anxiety in my head. Will I not be able to make the mortgage or the car payment? Nothing can crush that anxiety like a good role-playing game. Become someone significant who saves the world and doesn't have to fear living on the street - if only for an hour or three. Power fantasies and forgetting your troubles are an important part of the allure of video games. And they're so much more effective at it than any other media currently available.
So escapism and to some extent identity continue to tie me to video games. Sigh. I guess it's better than being hooked on heroin, right?
My best friend is playing No Man's Sky> @nakazcid said:
Why is this a problem?
I'd say it isn't a real, lasting solution. Its only suppressing or avoiding the underlying issues involved like boredom (aka, attachment to exciting stimulus) or anxiety and doesn't deal with the underlying causes.
No.
Addiction is a symptom.
At least I am not drinking shorts, taking heroin, playing video games, wasting time etc.
As a lobster I am addicted to fish. I wake up. The search begins.
I want to be a Dudette or Buddha.
First must stop injecting and snorting fish protein. At least I am not a vegetarian 'seaweed hugger'. 
In a way you are answering your own question. Video games are masking a whole bunch of other issues, deeper questions that you have about life, anxieties that are a sign of deeper clinging to some goal. These deeper questions are the reason why you are not at peace... There is a turmoil in your mind, and the distractions of action in a game are allowing you to set them aside for something the mind experiences as 'higher priority'.
I think you might find tackling these deeper issues and taking a next step in your practice to be very rewarding. This is where the real work begins, living a life closer to meaningful, life-positive existence is something I believe is possible, though it takes work.
My brother is a former heroin addict. Do not say this is as serious, lmao. I'd rather he play video games than shoot up. And he does. And I'm no longer afraid of him being found dead in the street. He did have a girlfriend who also did heroin and he repeatedly had to "bring her back to life" after she stopped breathing in her sleep. Every night. Multiple times a night. This is nooooot the same thing aaaat all.
PLUS you don't have to go down to the methadone clinic every day for like 6 months if you want to stop playing video games.
I was referring more to the mind-set than the substance abuse.
Still, what's wrong with a hobby we may use as a crutch? Not necessarily attachment, but a crutch. You can't possibly believe that playing video games and doing heroin is the same mind-set.
Oh yes, absolutely, I am. To different degrees, yes. A wave has the same motion as a tsunami. There's a difference in the impact and consequences, but each one is propelled and perpetuated by the same force.
And there are trained psychologists and counsellors who SPECIALISE in helping those addicted to Computer games. An addiction to computer games can destroy lives and ruin relationships.
It's not WHAT people are addicted to. It's the mind's capacity to resist or otherwise.
I agree with @federica. Gambling, sex addiction, video game addiction, sardine fetish (a serious problem for lobsters) all work on trigger reward responses.
It is a programmed behaviour pattern. What would you or you brother do if not playing games? Be addicted to harder drugs, true. How to wean oneself off softer options?
Buddhist addiction! Yep iz plan! We haz a better crutch ...
Twelve years ago I would have agreed with @IchLiebte (mainly because the alternative would have been to view myself as a virtual crack-peddler). But then World of Warcraft came along and I got seriously sucked in, I must have played 5 hours a day on workdays and 10-12 hrs on weekends, so maybe 45 hrs a week on top of a regular 9-5 job in the games industry. After nine months of that I was forced to acknowledge it as a serious "habit", in the not so good sense. It taught me games can become a serious problem.
These days I reckon most games but especially MMOs are slightly addictive, as a lot of things are slightly addictive - sugar, cannabis, alcohol, games kind of belong in that list. It can really get a hold on you when you are using it to mask deeper problems, you can become emotionally quite attached to your favorite games. It's mostly an escape, but you end up attaching such importance to these things that it becomes huge in your mind.
How did I kick the WoW habit? For a while I played casually, I'd come back after the release of each expansion and play for a few months. Eventually I gave all my gold to the guild, disenchanted my raid epic gear and left my characters standing naked in front of the Ironforge bank. I last logged out during the Cataclysm era.
Do you think some people have addictive personalities?
Some more than others, yes, definitely. It might well be an inherited gene.... my ex-neighbour's husband (years ago) had an alcoholic mother. His sister also became an alcoholic. he never touched the stuff. Point-blank refused, because he saw how it killed his mother and damaged his sister. However, could he gamble...Oh yes, he could....
I do think so, yes. It depends on how much you buy into the reward cycle, I think, and how attached you get to desiring certain things. My family is not particularly vulnerable to addiction, a few smoke and my dad likes drink a bit more than is good for him but he has it under control. But even if you are not vulnerable you can get sucked in, it's just a matter of degree.
Personally I don't have problems with most forms of addiction - alcohol, gambling, smoking, none of them really touch me though I have carefully steered clear of street drugs. Food is probably my biggest vice. For me what really did it with WoW was the social rewards, being wanted in groups and raids as a healer was a very nice feeling, and the gear and improving your character aspects. I spent a lot of time on understanding the systems, optimising things, getting the best bits I could. It appealed to my collecting instinct.
I think it has to do with a lot of factors. I don't know if I'd say it's as simple as "personality" though it could be. I think every single person I've ever known who became addicted to anything (in this case mostly drugs and alcohol) were people with mental health problems. They were also overwhelmingly very creative people. My ex was an alcoholic and prescription drug addict. It killed him when he was 35. We were together for 14 years, so I saw a lot of stuff in that time. Of my 4 grandparents, 3 of them were alcoholics. My aunt and uncle are alcoholics. 2 of their 4 adult children are addicts. My ex's dad was an alcoholic. It absolutely follows a genetic line. They might try it and end up addicted swiftly. But even among them, mental health was an issue (which also has a strong genetic link, of course).
Most of what I have noted is that for whatever reason, they all, every last one of them, lacked whatever tools they needed to cope with the world around them. Some of them were highly sensitive people who just couldn't deal with the world at all. Some of them needed more support and resources to be able to get through. All of them suffered, diagnosed or not, with depression and anxiety (at very high levels) and almost every one of them was self-medicating in their addictions. Escaping. Not wanting to deal with their feelings and wanting to take something, anything, to make them go away. They cannot deal with any level of discomfort. Often they have suffered various abuses, neglect and other things. And often these aren't extreme levels where the parents didn't care for them, but simply the parents didn't know what their kids needed, and their needs went unmet. Until they found ways to hie the discomfort of that.
So yes, I think games can definitely fall into that exact same mindset for the same type of people who are looking to escape from feeling uncomfortable. They distract themselves from what they are feeling by focusing it on something else and never dealing with the root of the feelings. Are games as inherently dangerous as drugs? Not usually, most people won't drop dead from a bad game like they will a bad dose of heroin. But some do, they neglect themselves so fully that they have actually died as a result. The results might not always be the same, but the mindset is.
Death through gaming
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/aug/09/who-killed-the-video-gamers-simon-parkin-taiwan
and VR is coming ...
Obviously gaming is safer than smack or crack but what comes after gaming on the road to RL (real life)?
I know it can be an addiction, but it is not the same force. I haven't met people playing video games to forget their childhood sexual abuse. It's not the same thing.
Just because you don't play video games doesn't mean you get to play holier-than-thou, or pretend psychologist for that matter.
How is being addicted to reading books any different? I aways had my head in books as a kid for escapism. Is that bad too?
This whole thread is becoming intensely judgmental.
First of all, please read the link I gave, thoroughly.
Secondly, don't be so bloody rude to me - or anyone else on this forum - in that way again.
You know next to nothing about me, or anyone else, so don't assume the privilege of being able to deride someone in such a dismissive manner.
Clear?
And you are clearly reading judgement into posts where there is none. Nobody has made any direct accusations, or criticised you belittled you or trivialised your comments. This is a general thread and you are way too touchy.
I think it may be a good idea for you to cool off for a while.
Anything, and I do mean ANYTHING can be an addiction. Even things we normally view as healthy things. Exercise, food, drinking water, and yes, reading. Being immersed in something doesn't mean it is an addiction. Addiction is an entirely different thing, as a result of something going wrong in the brain/body chemical connection. Someone who is not an addict won't become one by reading a lot. Someone who is an addict can be addicted to reading. Many people who were prior addicted to drugs, find their way out of that and become addicted, instead, to exercise. I know a woman who almost died more than one from her drug addictions. She now runs races 100+ miles. And she runs the distance of a marathon or more every single day. Other runners are the same. They might no longer be addicted to drugs, which is good. But they are still addicted to running. And they will tell you that they are. They just have decided it is a healthier choice than the alternative rather than to try to completely fight their addictive "personalities." Their type of running completely shuts down their organs to the point they frequently need IVs after races and pee blood during the race. It might be better than doing drugs, but I'm not convinced it's exactly healthy and no longer an addiction. Here is an article on one of them.
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/fitness/exercise/how-50yearold-junkie-replaced-meth-addiction-with-ultrarunning/news-story/9b773ee67ffecf27f5c6f3467570fa20
My name is Lobster and I am a reading addict.
Where is my 10 step plan?
Good point from @karasti - Has anyone OD'd on reading?
Alliance sux, FOR THE HORDE! I played a healer too, a blood elf priest. The commitment needed for raiding is serious burnout.
On a different note, this research into the causes of addiction is really interesting
Haha, I have a level 100 beast master hunter but I don't like how much they changed it with the new expansion coming and am kind of regretting getting the expansion. But my husband and I play together in a small guild with friends. Then we suspend our accounts when we get bored, lol. Which happens a lot.