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Not always so.....?

federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
edited April 2016 in Philosophy

DISCUSS

Comments

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited April 2016

    Seems 'bout right to me. Bit New-Agey but hey ... B)

    Sounds in fact like the 'bleedin' obvious'. In Buddha Dharma it is the principle reason why we follow an ethical and virtuous focus.

    Such a focus is good for us, others, society and all sentient beings.

    I would say, if we have a better plan. Follow it. :)

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @lobster said:
    Seems 'bout right to me. Bit New-Agey but hey ... B)

    Sounds in fact like the 'bleedin' obvious'. In Buddha Dharma it is the principle reason why we follow an ethical and virtuous focus.

    Such a focus is good for us, others, society and all sentient beings.

    I would say, if you have a better plan. Follow it. :)

    I agree.I was going to say, it sounds like the first two verses of the dhammapada (Pairs) in gobbledygook, pseudo-scientific fancy-dress.....

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited April 2016

    I feel that people try and reinterpret teachings and incorporate whatever is hipster science/truth.

    This is why Deepak Chopra, Osho the enlightened Bhagwan and Trungpa type sex cultists are so plausible.

    Some truth, some of what the public fancy, make it plausible. Put it out there and start collecting dollars, rolls royces, partners and good vibes. Yeah baby. Groovy! [said in my best Austin Powers voice]

    The problem with pseudo-spirituality is it is incomplete and therefore contains infantile platitudes, an incomplete or disempowering environment. Initially for us desperate, deluded, lost individuals (mentioning only myself as an example) we may gain some fortitude and help from such sources.

    In the 'wise' words of the former Mrs Trump,
    'It is what it is.'

    Swaroop
  • SwaroopSwaroop India Veteran

    Gobledygook
    Pseudo science at its worst

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Someone smack my hand. I just posted a couple of scathing comments on their fb page.... :blush:

    lobstersilver
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    Sounds like pseudo science masquerading as spirituality pointing to a very dodgy pseudo magical conclusion... Am steering well clear.

    Zenshin
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    edited April 2016

    Reassuring words from their website convincing me that i'm in the wrong place:

    "If you want the deepest possible realizations, the most comprehensive tools to live a life of true fulfillment, and you'd like to master all this in the shortest amount of time humanly possible, you've come to the right place."

    DavidJeroenlobster
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    It depends how far you want to take it. There was just a study very recently that the proved an older theory of "observer effect" where the presence of an observer actually changes how atoms behave on a quantum level. Reality changes simply based on something being their to observe it. So when you look at it from that point of view, it's fairly true. You don't even have to focus. You just have to be there.
    Reality as you observe it doesn't exist unless you are present, basically. Which makes it pretty hard, no matter how much we work at our practice, to actually see reality. Because we change it just by the fact we are present and observing it.
    This is the premise, which was recently proven to be true
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980227055013.htm

    In any case, I don't see the value in mocking something others believe in, posting it simply to talk about how stupid you think it is, and then going to their page and offering "scathing" comments about it. Why not just leave it lie? How does it affect you if people prefer to see the universe in this way? What good, EVER, comes in attacking someone else's views and making a mockery of them simply because you don't share them? I never understand the mentality of going to various FB pages and trolling and mocking them. Seems like an ill-used waste of time and not in line with Right Speech at the very least.

    silverShoshin
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    I'm aware of the observer effect and the double-slit experiments, but these and their conclusions don't seem to affect the world at a human scale. If you launch a tennis ball into a forest and nobody is there to observe it, it is still going to bounce around and a sufficiently complex mathematical equation can tell you where it lands.

    There are a lot of grand conclusions being bandied about discussing shared reality but the simple fact is Jupiters moons don't vanish when they pass behind the planet and suddenly they can't be observed from Earth. However the quantum effect works, at larger scales things seem to firm up and become stable.

    FosdickZenshinperson
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @Kerome said:However the quantum effect works, at larger scales things seem to firm up and become stable.

    Yes, and our everyday world operates according to Newtonian mechanics rather than quantum mechanics. The weirdness of the sub-atomic world isn't directly observable in our everyday world.

  • robotrobot Veteran

    I don't see how this meme or the idea it's selling could change anything. Someone could carry that thought around all day and their world will not be different. It's just rearranging the furniture.

    silverperson
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited April 2016

    I have an allergy to most forms of love & light
    where willful blindness and the inability to face that the universe is not answerable to our personal will, dominates.
    It is not that their theory of vibrations makes me uncomfortable but somehow I end up feeling like I am hanging out around an addict who is viewing me as their next possible fix.
    Of course, the same thing happens to me with car salesmen when I'm walking through their car lot.

    WalkerlobsterJeroen
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    @Kerome to a degree of course, yes. And I'm hardly a scientist. But really, would something like a sound still exist if human ears weren't there to collect the sound wave and make sense of it in the brain? Logic says that a tree will make the same noise when it falls in the woods whether someone is there or not. But how do we know that's true if it takes a specifically designed ear to be present in order to capture the waves of sound that are created?

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @karasti said: In any case, I don't see the value in mocking something others believe in, posting it simply to talk about how stupid you think it is, and then going to their page and offering "scathing" comments about it. Why not just leave it lie? How does it affect you if people prefer to see the universe in this way? What good, EVER, comes in attacking someone else's views and making a mockery of them simply because you don't share them? I never understand the mentality of going to various FB pages and trolling and mocking them. Seems like an ill-used waste of time and not in line with Right Speech at the very least.

    First of all, I haven't mocked it. Where did I mock it?
    Secondly, I never said it was stupid. Where did I say it was stupid?
    I wanted to discuss it because I think it's old wisdom re-cycled into palatable, sugar-coated easy-to-digest, bite-sized kernels of placatory pap.

    I didn't attack their views, I didn't make a mockery of them, and I didn't troll. I added some comments which were blunt and straight to the point.

    If you're going to criticise me for anything, at least have the decency to be accurate in your criticism.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    Often you define yourself as blunt and to the point, and that is not how it's received. I'm not the only one that thinks that, either. People often think saying "I'm blunt and honest and I'll tell you like it is" means they can say mostly whatever they want. Again, what is the point in going onto their page and pointing out to them why you think they are wrong? There is simply no point. Not only will your points not be received, but it will just more firmly cement them in their position when they feel the need to defend themselves. It's just overall better to stand for what you do believe in and focus on that. In my experience, of course. As a member of pages who are sometimes on the receiving end of people who feel the need to come school people, it is never well received, no matter your intent. Something you find to be sugar-coated placatory pap may well be someone's initial introduction into topics they have never considered. Things like that are often the jumping off point for someone to expand their horizons. Not everyone is ready for more than that.

    Shoshin
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    ok.

  • robotrobot Veteran

    @karasti Lately I've found myself trolling some pages where racists hang out. It's a waste of time for sure. I feel like if it shows up on my computer, I have the right to speak my mind.
    As for Federica saying what she wants because (a) she's blunt and says what she wants, or (b) she is a moderator and has different rights, I mostly just put it down to being British. I was raised by an Englishwoman and had to put out fires whenever we went out together. Especially when she got older. The men are pretty bolshy too. I have to watch myself closely trying not to offend too many people.

    federicasilverShoshin
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I take issue with only one phrase in your comment, @robot and that is

    she is a moderator and has different rights,

    I endeavour, as much as is humanly possible for me to do so (I stress the 'human' because I too, am prone and subject to the same natural influences and responses as any other human) to separate my 'Moderator' persona from my 'fellow member' one. I honestly, hand on heart have never deliberately or wilfully sought to assume I have different rights to others. I don't consider myself privileged or to have an advantage over others simply because I am charged with Moderating.
    I have a mouth on me. It's true.
    Maybe my Britishness has a great deal to do with it, but I'm acutely mindful that I am half Italian, and as such, there's a lot of my Mother, in this gal...

    But if I ever for one moment might assume I have 'different rights' you have no idea how quickly and how hard, Linc would come down on me.
    "Ton of bricks" doesn't even touch it.

    Bunksrobot
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    It's a new exciting age and people are looking for ways in how to express/share what they know to be true(for them that is)-what experiences they have had...

    The twin verses... (in a nutshell) If you change the way you look at things then the things you look at change !
    I can't see anything wrong with people seeking their truth, each to their own karmic path/pattern...
    The truth will eventually come out in the wash cycle...

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    gotcha, so the Brits get more leeway than everyone else because it's just how they are. Reminds me of the American "boys will be boys" excusing poor behavior on their part because it's just how they are. But whatever.

  • robotrobot Veteran

    nah. She gets leeway because she's a moderator. And she's smarter than me.

  • Words, words and more words.

    What's that all about?

    Focus on the silence between those words. There you will find peace.
    Enough talking.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @karasti said:
    gotcha, so the Brits get more leeway than everyone else because it's just how they are. Reminds me of the American "boys will be boys" excusing poor behavior on their part because it's just how they are. But whatever.

    I don't think leeway was being requested. I think he was just trying to explain the possible causes of my behaviour... where did he put "You should make allowances for..."?

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Well, as this thread has turned from its original attempt to discus new-age balderdash, into 'let's have a pop at federica because we object to her style' I'll sink it.

  • @karasti said:
    What good, EVER, comes in attacking someone else's views and making a mockery of them simply because you don't share them? I never understand the mentality of going to various FB pages and trolling and mocking them. Seems like an ill-used waste of time and not in line with Right Speech at the very least.

    In the scientific arena peer review is fierce and charlatans easily, swiftly and usually fairly dissed and dismissed. The results are plain.

    The wishy washy (as opposed to disciplined, restrained practitioners and right speakers) harm none including the bozo dharma purveyors.

    As a heretic, I criticise myself and deservedly refute the motives and limited teachings and teachers who would not know the far shore if they were standing on it.

    Think of it as something I learnt from the wrathful dharma protectors and heretics and trouble makers such as the Buddha who revitalised the yogic\Hindu religion of his day.

    I iz bad. I iz in good company.

    There are so many disciplined, learned and experienced teachers. Support them too ...

    Long live the Mahayana [lobster rants off into the distance ...]

  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    @karasti said:
    @Kerome to a degree of course, yes. And I'm hardly a scientist. But really, would something like a sound still exist if human ears weren't there to collect the sound wave and make sense of it in the brain? Logic says that a tree will make the same noise when it falls in the woods whether someone is there or not. But how do we know that's true if it takes a specifically designed ear to be present in order to capture the waves of sound that are created?

    What is a sound? The pattern of compressed air waves caused by energy dissipating during the breaking of the tree is still present, regardless of the observer. The subjective interpretation of that as a 'kerrunch' is an artifact of our senses and so personal to us. There are microphones which allow you to capture the full range of vibrations in the sound wave, of which our ear only captures a subset.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @lobster
    All sentient beings are teachers and students of the Dharma, even if we don't all realise this...At times defilements arise (our own or others) , some can be seen has teachings on patience, some restraint, others acceptance, tolerance etc, etc...Dharma practice stretches way beyond the confines of this Buddhist forum...However....

    From a Dharma view point (after all we are here to learn and practice), perhaps a little toning down, or dare I say blunting down (pun intended ) of bluntness is called for by all, so has not to come across in such a harsh manner. (especially where new members are involved-but not just new members) which can and often does incite ones ego to retaliate...

    When a person feels that they are picked on they go on the defensive which in turn can get the back up of the other person and so the cycle continues...

    There are other ways of getting ones point across without the added harshness...

    ie, without having to hit a person using brute force with a blunt instrument, (Or boil them in hot water) so to speak..

    Mind training comes to mind,involving the monitoring of ones thoughts words and deeds...Thus I have heard with practice, it can be a wholesome defilement buster...

    The new age group that @federica is referring to, has no doubt a desire to end suffering and be happy, some may feel they are going about it the wrong way...But as long as they are not intentionally harming others...each to their own, whatever floats their raft.... Different strokes for different folks

  • ZeroZero Veteran
    edited April 2016

    @Shoshin said:
    The new age group that @federica is referring to, has no doubt a desire to end suffering and be happy...

    Which seems to translate to a slick product - free trial by email, no transparency on costs, wild invitations to treat.
    "If you're good at something, never do it for free" - so said the Joker.

  • techietechie India Veteran

    Many of the new age stuff today is due to a mix of science (quantum mechanics, specifically) and religion. While it may appear clumsy, some people find comfort that their spirituality has the sanction of science. Maybe naive but not really harmful.

    Posting 'blunt, scathing comments' on their FB page is not skillful, though.

    karasti
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    I just don't see the point in bringing it here just to bash what they think. You can claim all you want that you aren't doing so, but the entire point in this being posted was hardly compassionate in intention. There's lots of stuff people do that I just plain don't get. I internally shake my head at a lot of it because it's not something that resonates with me in any way, and I don't get it. But they don't get what I do and believe sometimes either. And it's all ok. We all find ways to get through life by adding some joy and comfort. How someone does it is not really much of my business and I certainly don't spend time offering scathing criticisms on their pages over it.

    My mom goes to an energy healer who no doubt charges a lot of money to have my mom touch and hold crystals. I have to work hard not to roll my eyes. It makes no sense to me. My son picked out a pretty rock from the store the other day, and the clerk told us all about how much the rock was vibrating. It doesn't make sense to me. But my son, who is 7, spent an hour touching all the rocks and picked rocks he felt were special. What made them so, isn't mine to judge. Maybe people really do feel some sort of vibration and/or healing from such things. Maybe it's all in the mind. I actually find that fascinating, because it means we can believe ourselves into healing or at least feeling better. That's pretty significant, I think. Placebo is touted as something not worth considering. Except it seems to me that's far from the truth.

    Anyhow, I don't get it myself. But others seems to get something out of it. Who am I to judge? They aren't spending my money. It makes them happy. It makes them feel they are doing something to better their lives and clear the crap from their minds. Who am I to say that the way they do it is wrong while my taking 30 minutes to do a 3 block walking meditation is right? I'd rather just go for that walk than to confront them and tell them why their ways are wrong. I get more out of the walk than pushing people into defending their beliefs.

  • ZeroZero Veteran

    @techie said:
    While it may appear clumsy, some people find comfort that their spirituality has the sanction of science. Maybe naive but not really harmful.

    I think this is the point - that it's not 'sanctioned' by science. It is harmful in that it serves to perpetuate befuddlement.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    Meditation wasn't sanctioned by science until very recently, either.

  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited April 2016

    Without even getting into the posting of scathing comments on someone elses FB page........

    If anyone doubt's what federica does here, (and what happens if she doesn't) this thread is a perfect example of it.

    Usually when someone just opens a thread here with some quoted teaching without including why they posted it, somebody (usually a moderator) pretty quickly asks them why they posted it.?
    This helps prevent this site from simply being a library drop of favorite quotes and allows more of a first person experiential exchange about it.

    Simply following it with "discuss" did little to answer the question of why it was posted.

    Had a moderator asked why this quote was being posted here without any real input from the OP (as it more normally would have), I think this thread could have been more NB and not as adversarial as many other Buddhist sites.

    silver
  • techietechie India Veteran
    edited April 2016

    @Zero said:

    @techie said:
    While it may appear clumsy, some people find comfort that their spirituality has the sanction of science. Maybe naive but not really harmful.

    I think this is the point - that it's not 'sanctioned' by science. It is harmful in that it serves to perpetuate befuddlement.

    I am talking about the overreaction to it.

    Edit:
    What I mean is, if I tell a believer (for example) that his god is nonsense etc., he is only going to become more entrenched in his beliefs. Talking things over is better than adopting an aggressive stance.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited April 2016

    @how said:
    Without even getting into the posting of scathing comments on someone elses FB page........

    If anyone doubt's what federica does here, (and what happens if she doesn't) this thread is a perfect example of it.

    Usually when someone just opens a thread here with some quoted teaching without including why they posted it, somebody (usually a moderator) pretty quickly asks them why they posted it.?
    This helps prevent this site from simply being a library drop of favorite quotes and allows more of a first person experiential exchange about it.

    Simply following it with "discuss" did little to answer the question of why it was posted.

    Had a moderator asked why this quote was being posted here without any real input from the OP (as it more normally would have), I think this thread could have been more NB and not as adversarial as many other Buddhist sites.

    I tend to question threads with a link or picture, where no additional commentary has appeared at all.
    That, I think, warrants some addition or clarification from the OP.
    The quotation was pretty comprehensive.
    The invitation to 'discuss' seemed sufficient to evoke some kind of response.
    Which it did.
    In fact, after @lobster posted, I did add a further comment.
    NOw, yes - I could have edited the original post and incorporated the comment on the dhammapada to the first post - but chose to respond instead to @lobster's comment, because his came before my 'after-thought'.
    Had I added my second-post content to the first post in the thread, it would no doubt have made it look to some as if I might have been trying to steal @lobster's thunder.
    Which just goes to show I just can't win.... ;)

    how
  • WalkerWalker Veteran Veteran

    Lobster Thunder... sounds like a heavy metal band.

    Bunks
  • ZeroZero Veteran

    @karasti said:
    Meditation wasn't sanctioned by science until very recently, either.

    I'm not suggesting that it needs to be sanctioned by science but rather that it appears to misappropriate scientific terminology in order to lend legitimacy.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    There is a thin line between open mindedness and gullibility....One lives and learns...That's life in a nutshell :)

  • Just goes to show, many people don't always value advice freely given but seem to feel that if they plunk down some money, or they hear it from some "expert", it makes it valid and, somehow more valuable.

    Take some truths, dress them up with a fancy bow and, (Abracadabra!), you have a spiffy product to sell.

    Definitely, the caffeine has worn out. :3

  • SearnSearn Ft. Worth, TX New

    Well my experience has inclined me to understand that whether the subject is a tree falling, a baby crying, or someone sharing a thought that the perception of the observer and their reaction do indeed impact the observed.

    Take this thread for an example. We all read the seed post and responded based on that observation. Some posts addressed Pseudoscience, some addressed the reactions others had to it, while others addressed "spiritual materialism".

    As a result of each individual's observation the OP eventually expressed that they were not pleased with being bashed (my own perception) and expressing their willingness to remove the thread.

    I guess that all of that was a lengthy way of saying that while "as fast as possible spirituality" glossed with "quantum babble" doesn't do the base teaching any service it can incline those with a marginal interest to dig a little deeper and discover the root of the teaching. But then I also respect how effectively cockle burrs (sp?) spread despite being so irritating.

    Searn

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