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What is "Monkey Mind" ?
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
It would seem that more than half the issues facing many practitioners, is having to deal with monkey mind on a daily bases...
The term has been floating around quite a bit (in one form or another)...No doubt it is often overlooked or dismissed altogether (not that one can really dismiss monkey mind's involvement in things) 
So what's your understanding of "Monkey Mind" ?
Are you familiar with yours ?
Have you come to a mutual working agreement ie workable contract with monkey mind ?
"You can’t stop the waves, but you can learn to surf." ~Jon Kabat-Zinn~
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Comments
It is the erratic, uncontrolled, sensation and novelty seeking evolved mind that is prone to distraction and delusion and impulse.
We eagerly await answers to questions 2 and 3...
Very.
Sometimes.
Here is the sutta reference for those who are interested:
"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html
I think the best example of the monkey mind at work is when you're trying to sleep but your mind won't shut down. There are also times in trying to meditate when your mind is active and resists the sit down and shut up command.
I suppose the thing to remember is that monkey mind is a description, not a criticism. We are, after all, monkeys. Hairless, ground dwelling monkeys, but still our minds are evolved for constantly scanning for that next branch coming up, wondering if that bit of green is a snake or a vine, and if that tree over there might have ripe fruit on it. All in the brief second while falling through the air.
When I'm driving down the road or shopping for groceries I use my monkey mind. But monkeys can't swing from branches every minute of the day. And I can't be thinking about how I'd like to chat up that good looking monkey over there when a branch is getting ready to slap me in the face. So I have to tame my monkey mind.
Become the monkey. Embrace your monkey-hood. Shouting orders at your monkey only makes it jump up and down and shout back. The monkey is you in the empty mirror of your mind. Meditation is sitting down and shutting up. You can't force your monkey to do that. But you can do it easily.
-There it is, here's to calming the monkey...
There should be no contract or acceptance of the monkey mind because it does not exist. The idea of the money mind is a metaphor for cravings in the ideas of the self and pleasures that clings to one thing and then lets go when it finds something else to swing from. It is the condition of being unsatisfied looking for satisfaction but not finding.
No shit sherlock.
That's just a super-wordy way of saying... "Monkey-mind exists and this is what it is."
"Contract or acceptance" is frankly, highfalutin talk for 'being suckered into' which we all are.
Listen.
I totally accept that you seem to have found new depth, meaning and significance to Mind and Love.
but at some point in the not-too-distant past, you had a monkey-mind exactly like everyone else.
So to say 'it does not exist' for you may be legitimate and valid. You have a contract and an acceptance of that.
Some of us are just not that advanced.
I believe monkey mind is not just cravings, it is a function of the mind in means of survival as well. Such as thinking about things because of fear and worry. Did I remember to turn off the stove? Did I rememeber to pay the bills? And positive things to keep alive, such as wonder what I am going to eat today or where am I going this weekend. That doesn't mean it should not be consolidated though, or kept at bay or to a minimum. Just enough to where we are not suffering or creating suffering because of it.
Another extract from the source sutta might help.
"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html
No, @federica it is not defining or stating it is exists. The “monkey mind” is not a real physical thing. It is a metaphor for a condition and activities in the mind and thoughts that are from cause and effects. Remove the cause and the effects diminish. To believe it is anything real is to define the mind for what it is not.
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at some point in the not-too-distant past, you had a monkey-mind exactly like everyone else.
I do accept that I was no long ago affected and infected by monkey-mindedness, and still am. But this does make it real. Rather it was in the realization that it was not at all real, nor intrinsic to the mind, but came from cause and effect of wrong choices in a way thinking. It is in believing that this monkey-mindedness is real that we keep it as something real in us, even to define the mind. And because you believe it is something real so you keep it active and make it impossible to see the mind as the mind really is. I do have a lizard brain, and it is physically real unlike the monkey-mind. However I am not going to define the mind by the fact that I do have a lizard brain. So no, I do not have a monkey-mind nor do you nor does anyone else, nor did you or anyone ever have a monkey-mind. Read again @SpinyNorman’s description of what the monkey-mind represents. Its not a “thing”.
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I believe this better applies to the lizard brain or just rational thinking. It is not however in the context of the sutta.
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Exactly! This speaks to the cause and effect that brings about monkey-mindedness. The cause and effect comes from the imagination to say, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.'
It is release from this imaginary idea of self that is needful. Perception has consequences. Why? Consider that what we do in this imaginary self is put reliance upon the imagination. I suggest that in doing this we no longer live in reality but in our illusions. It is the unsatisfactory illusions wandering and needy that we crave to define us and to satisfy us and that we then cling to this vine, and then another, and so on.
Three different things here. Mind, monkey mind, and thoughts. I can agree that thoughts are not real especially self driven thoughts, but I am not sure you can call the mind or the distracted mind as unreal.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel021.html
No, you don't get it. I DO realise it's a metaphor. We all do. We just call it that for convenience because it's easier to use that metaphor, rather than it's much longer definitions...
See?! Metaphor!
And we're not defining the mind by the fact that we DO have a Monkey-like aptitude to generate thoughts which become distractions of clinging, grasping and... whatever else you said...
We don't think it's 'real' either....
I know.
It's just a shortened version of all of the above...
@Shoshin asks us: So what's your understanding of "Monkey Mind" ?
Are you familiar with yours ?
Have you come to a mutual working agreement ie workable contract with monkey mind ?"
Monkey Mind is our own individual minds/thoughts that - well, it's a state of being of our minds WHEN it hops around from subject to subject, feelings to other feelings, on a frenetic bender. It's like our mind is on speed. I guess the western world people are used to living like this, and many are just becoming aware of this not-so-good behavior and are doing things to slow it down.
I'm always becoming more familiar with my own MM. A work in progress, as they say.
I make no deals with MM, ha ha. I confront and step in when I realize what's happening.
every moment there are millions of manifestations but we notice (conscious of/have the awareness) one of them or we do not notice (not conscious of/do not have the awareness) them through our six sense bases
our six sense bases are the effect of our own previous kamma (cause) and colour, sound, taste, smell, tactile (apo,thejo,vayo) are the effect of our own previous kamma (condition)
since we are alive as an effect of previous kamma every moment the consciousness arises
this is called arising of five aggregates (form, feeling, perception, volition and consciousness)
whether we like it or not, whether we believe it or not this happens in everyone of us in every moment
this is same for any normal person/animal/sentient being, any Noble person who has the Noble Right View and any Arahants who has finished the work has to be done
when there is a manifestation there is a perception/label/name arises with it and any normal person thinks that perception is an outside object (thing or a being)
this is called delusion
so we start to think (plan for future) with greed or hate or we start to think of the past with happiness or sorrow this is called "Monkey Mind"
when a Noble person is mindful to have the gained Noble Right View he is not deluded and there is no Monkey Mind for him at that moment
For Arahants there is no delusion at any time so there is no Monkey Mind for him
yes
you can not have any contract with monkey mind instead you have to command it and it is your duty to take the authority to be mindful
during the day i am trying to be mindful with the above knowledge that i have
and
when i am meditating i try to be mindful with the above knowledge
i have noticed the mindfulness has been increasing and suffering has been decreasing
yes, we can not stop arising of five aggregates (the waves) until the end of effects of our previous kamma
but
we can learn Buddha's Teaching, have faith in them at the beginning , practice and see how far we can agree to them
if and when we can agree to them we can work accordingly (on Noble Eightfold Path/Surf)
No one has to tell us but we ourselves can see how True the Buddha's Teaching is for reduction of suffering in our own life
Good post @upekka as you understand monkey mind falsity as mentioned by @Sherlock
@Riddlewind and the increasingly subtle dukkha continuation until the end of our previous karmic influences ...
In a sense the Boddhisattva ideal is most useful when we understand the nature of monkey mind and the means to its dissolving for ourselves and others.
That is why Nirvana spoken of by those in the grip of the falsity are at best transmitters of information and at worse hypocrites. Be a mensch not an ape.
As hypocrites we can through practice most certainly observe, realise the falsity and negate the endless run away jabbering of our monkey mind. This gradual process and awareness we can certainly engage in, understand the benefits and make progress towards. 'Already perfect' is not helping.
Surprisingly mindfulness practice and just sitting awareness, though all the rage in the media at the moment, are in many ways an advanced or complete state of being suitable for the newly awakened, deepened realisation, as well as the still jabbering.
"Monkey mind" are the defilements. Please mind the monkey.
The luminous mind is the mind that the meditator is trying to develop. To perceive its luminosity means understanding that defilements such as greed, aversion, or delusion are not intrinsic to its nature, are not a necessary part of awareness.
I wonder if Kabat-Zinn has taught his monkey to surf yet?
...> @grackle said:
"Woohoo Cool Bananas "
Cool picture. Has the monkey GPS devices in those bananas?
I think more simply there is mind, and what it contains at any one time.
Mind the gap....
Right. I was just trying to show that we were talking about 3 different things instead of just one thing as a topic.
"Monkey mind" is really a state of mind. It is equivalent to the distracted state of mind/consciousness, one of the states mentioned in the 3rd frame of the Satipatthana Sutta.
See under the heading "III. The Contemplation of Consciousness" and Note 14 here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.nysa.html
It's interesting to see how monkey mind describes itself, ie, the monkey chatter that goes on inside ones head when 'thinking' about the questions......"I'm this.... I"m that... I'm the other"
I think Mingyur Rinpoche short video clip explains what it is in a nutshell....The constant chatter that goes on inside ones head...
OK, but then what? Do we want to get rid of monkey mind and replace it with something else? Peaceful mind? Content mind? Non-dual mind? What exactly?
that is why once one is on Noble eight-fold path there is Right speech or Noble silence
just be on Noble Eight-fold path
for that
first of all one need to get the Right Understanding
Right Understanding is not just the knowledge we got from reading, listening and thinking about Buddha's Teaching,
it is more than that
to get that we have to do the experiment and see the result ourselves
our body and mind is the lab, six sense bases are the tools and the materials come from the environment (colour, sound etc.)
happy experimenting!
That's a great way to put it. So monkey mind grasps at the clouds (thoughts) that obscure the sky (mind).
Good discussion.
I think it helpful if we understand that the mind creation gave us that is the nature of the mind as the mind really is, is luminous, clarity, peace, love, equanimity, grace, stillness, silence.
Then, along came our thinking: the idea of making and defining a false self to perceive what we are.
Our thoughts then became afflicted and our state of mind left clarity and the luminous and became darkened with thoughts of self. For the purpose of defining and feeding and protecting the self then chatter and discontent arose, neediness arose, the neediness to maintain and protect the false self brought anxiety and fear.
That neediness for self made the mind appear needy and unstable. And so came the need for us to satisfy the mind with things and other thoughts. A snowball occurs of cause and effect.
The desire for an imaginary self brought with it other imaginations and even more chatter, seemingly unrelated. This affliction was self-inflicted. If we remove the root cause the mind returns to its natural state of silence and luminosity.
It may be helpful for us to understand that no thought is anything real. A thought is just a thought; and never do our thoughts define the mind and what the mind really is or what we are for that matter.
Love and Light
I deal with monkey mind on a daily basis. I've come to accept the inner commentary and musings much easier, and that seems to be beneficial. I try to just let the thoughts rise and fall, and recognize them as "thinking." Just the awareness of that seems to help. It's definitely a practice of compassion to not get frustrated with oneself for not being a "good meditator".
I'm ADD so I can remember as a child, reading an entire page of a book and literally not remembering what I had just read. Concentration has long been difficult.
Hi @Federica, Sherlock here.
I would be rightly chastised if @Shoshin did not put the question:
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Have you come to a mutual working agreement ie workable contract with monkey mind?
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I interpreted that “Agreement and workable contract with monkey mind” meant the acceptance of a confused state of mind not as a metaphor but as something real we need to perhaps compromise and make friends with.
If I interpreted this improperly I apologize to @Shoshin.
If the whole topic was meant to be only humorous I apologize.
Thinking is what the mind naturally does, and that is an important insight.
As a state of mind, I would say back to the breath, and let it dissipate. As a distractive thought, don't latch on and try to think of something else that is more conducive to practice. Changing the focus back to the breath will work for both in any case.
"Monks, I know not of any other single thing that brings such woe as the mind that is untamed, uncontrolled, unguarded and unrestrained. Such a mind indeed brings great woe."
I think that sums it up well.
Oh, I wasn't chastising you. (You'd know it if I was! :P: ) I was really trying to clarify that I haven't taken the concept of Monkey Mind as being too literal...
D'you know, I see now what you meant... I actually missed that part in the firt post. Apologies, my bad as the young of today say...
Ugh. No. I can't make friends with my "Monkey Mind". That would imply a relaxation of my effort and an acceptance of something that it would appear I cannot change.
That is not to imply that I treat it in any kind of "hostile" manner though.
I would view it as physiotherapy to a mending broken leg. Going with it and improving the situation, without animosity or resentment towards the injured limb...
No, I think you were probably right...
You'll find an awful lot of treads/topics receive an injection of humour at some point anyway, so don't be concerned about its intention. I think the discussion is very interesting.
Oops, there I go, thinking again....!
Thanks for the informative/helpful comments...
Many people new to meditation, have a hard time coming to grips with the ongoing chatter when attempting to sit....and no doubt some will find some of the comments in this thread helpful when it comes to understanding what's actually going on inside ...and this would also extend to every day life where ones mind often gets charmed by its thoughts....
"My mind was once full of noisy monkeys who really liked to chat
never stopping for a minute, even when I sat
One day a wise monk who meditates did say
"There's a trick that you can use to keep this noise at bay"
Well I was all ears ...I wanted to know , what is it I could do
to silence those pesky monkeys who had made my mind a zoo
He then told me this ancient secret which took my breath away
he said "Just count the breathes going in or out, it's easy..it's child's play!"
Well I focused upon my breathing just like he told me to
and the monkey chatter stopped... my mind's no longer a zoo
But I like all sentient beings ...even monkeys who like to chat
but they can take their gossip elsewhere, for I've had enough of that !"
"Just count the breathes going in or out..."
-Works for me...
In the Pali Canon, the basis for the idea of 'monkey mind' can found in suttas such as SN 12.61 and Sn 4.4, the imagery being that the mind, like a monkey, swings from one branch to another, never resting or staying the same. Depending on the context, it can refer to impermanence (i.e., mind as not-self) as well as the mind of one unskilled in meditation (i.e., lack of concentration).
As for myself, I'm definitely familiar with it and I've seen how this tendency of the mind can cause a lot if mental suffering, especially doubt and anxiety. But over the years, I've learned to be more mindful of when my mind is running away with itself, and have found ways of dealing with it that tend to help. Sometimes, all I need to do is adjust my focus, such as start watching the breath. Other times, I have to 'talk' my mind into letting things go/focusing on something more skillful or that I need to do/pay attention to. It's very difficult to watch/subdue in meditation, though.
In a sense the mind grasps are the clouds ...
As many have suggested the attention to the breath is The Buddha Breathing. A most effective tried, tested and truely simple but powerful awareness. It is well expressed in the Youtube @Shoshin posted in the original post.
There are many ways to 'give monkey mind a banana grasping task' in order to subdue/calm/train and gain insight from the Nirvana Sky.
Here is some other stuff to try ...
https://thebuddhafultao.wordpress.com/2012/07/04/the-59-slogans-of-lojong/
Hence my "Seeker of the clear blue sky" (after my name) ...
Indeed.
We also have a monkey body to contend with. We are also living in a world of monkeying. Mind training is also monkey calming/occupying. It might seem dualistic but in samsara all efforts are dualistic.
As many of us know we train with monkey. Constipated dharma is not the same as attentive awareness of mara monkey, sky monkey, dharma refined monkey etc.
The Buddha Monkey or realised/awake nature is independent of this uncontrolled character. The whole of our practice is finding ways for monkey to R.I.P.
Does monkey die? Did monkey never exist? All these and other answers to the usual menagerie ...
What is monkey mind?
Grasping at one thing then grasps at another is how the monkey mind is described. The main thing here is that it is describing grasping. Latching onto a thought or grasping at it, will lead to such things as feelings, moods, and the cycle is repeated thus the concept "monkey mind".
Why?
Cravings. A sense of wanting senseful pleasure. Wanting change. Wanting consistency.
Are you familiar with yours ?
Yes.
Have you come to a mutual working agreement ie workable contract with monkey mind ?
Yes and I give 100% credit to Buddhism.
Well said @namarupa
We can not totally subdue by repressing. In other words grasping a single banana/thought with constipated concentration. We need the focus of the eightfold path or other practice tools to implement a complimentary environment.
Returning to the old stand by of gentle awareness of breath. A monkey subduer for so many of us ...
You cannot subdue anything by repression. What you attempt to subdue reformulates itself.
What we resist persists
Breathing is not repression. Breathing is calming and grounding.
I have found it also helps us stay alive, which is, I suppose, an added bonus....
Most of us have found it so.