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@person said:
If things weren't empty they couldn't interact and change. If they had true existence from their own side, in themselves, they would just be stuck forever like that. So, yes being empty means there is potential, but it is a by product of the way things really exist and isn't a quality in the things themselves.
Tee Hee. So how do the qualities that come from Nibbana/Emptiness 'arise' or have their being? Was the Buddhas compassion and wisdom evidence of spiritual impediments before heading off for para-nirvana? The mind boggles, not that we have a real mind or anything ...
@lobster said:Tee Hee. So how do the qualities that come from Nibbana/Emptiness 'arise' or have their being?
It probably makes sense to say that Nirvana or the unconditioned has always been there, so practice is really about connecting with it, being less enamoured with the incessant activity of the aggregates. So in some schools there is an emphasis on meditative stillness.
Nirvana is not emptiness though. In the Heart Sutra the bodhisattva reaches Nirvana having seen the emptiness of the aggregates. So there is the sense of seeing through the aggregates because they are not as substantial as we assumed. I'm not sure which aggregate is doing the seeing though.
2
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@person said:
If things weren't empty they couldn't interact and change. If they had true existence from their own side, in themselves, they would just be stuck forever like that. So, yes being empty means there is potential, but it is a by product of the way things really exist and isn't a quality in the things themselves.
Tee Hee. So how do the qualities that come from Nibbana/Emptiness 'arise' or have their being? Was the Buddhas compassion and wisdom evidence of spiritual impediments before heading off for para-nirvana?
This is a good question and one that I really don't know, the topic has come up tangentially recently in one of my Dharma classes. Some say the emptiness of a Buddha's mind is different than the emptiness of an unenlightened mind and some say it is the same, that the qualities of a Buddha are equally empty. I tend to favor the latter but like I said I really don't know what they're talking about.
The mind boggles, not that we have a real mind or anything ...
Even if there is some aspect of the mind that continues after death doesn't mean it has to be inherently existing and real, it is perfectly capable of being dependently originated.
@person said:Some say the emptiness of a Buddha's mind is different than the emptiness of an unenlightened mind and some say it is the same, that the qualities of a Buddha are equally empty. I tend to favor the latter but like I said I really don't know what they're talking about.
Looking at the Heart Sutra it seems the Bodhisattva uses prajna wisdom to see the emptiness of the aggregates, and reaches clearest Nirvana. The implication seems to be that Nirvana is not itself empty. http://www.fwbo-news.org/resources/heart_sutra.pdf
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@David said:> I still think to be empty of inherent existence is to be full of potential.
Full of potential for what? Further change presumably?
Well, the potential to be changed at least. Change is what things do, not what things are. Change is strictly a verb and fruition greatly depends on competing circumstance.
@David said:> I still think to be empty of inherent existence is to be full of potential.
Full of potential for what? Further change presumably?
Well, the potential to be changed at least. Change is what things do, not what things are. Change is strictly a verb and fruition greatly depends on competing circumstance.
Sorry, but I have no idea what this means. Maybe you could relate what you are saying to an actual Buddhist teaching like the Heart Sutra?
We're on a Buddhist discussion forum, so generally it would be good if people could support their opinions with Buddhist texts and teachings, rather than just repeating personal views.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@SpinyNorman said:... We're on a Buddhist discussion forum, so generally it would be good if people could support their opinions with Buddhist texts and teachings, rather than just repeating personal views.
I have to say, you DO have a point.....
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@person said:Some say the emptiness of a Buddha's mind is different than the emptiness of an unenlightened mind and some say it is the same, that the qualities of a Buddha are equally empty. I tend to favor the latter but like I said I really don't know what they're talking about.
Looking at the Heart Sutra it seems the Bodhisattva uses prajna wisdom to see the emptiness of the aggregates, and reaches clearest Nirvana. The implication seems to be that Nirvana is not itself empty. http://www.fwbo-news.org/resources/heart_sutra.pdf
Like I said there is disagreement and I don't understand it so
@David said:> I still think to be empty of inherent existence is to be full of potential.
Full of potential for what? Further change presumably?
Well, the potential to be changed at least. Change is what things do, not what things are. Change is strictly a verb and fruition greatly depends on competing circumstance.
Emptiness is really more about how and what things are more than what they do. What they do is more of a consequence of how they are.
For example things change because they aren't solid and can take on properties from elsewhere, they aren't independent entities that simply morph on their own or hold any consistent status. There isn't some solid thing out there that changes from a seed to a sprout, the only difference being what we label it or its current configuration. A seed and a sprout aren't the same thing only on a different point in a continuum, they are made up of different non-seed/sprout things.
https://mettarefuge.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/freedom-from-buddha-nature/ > If you assume a Buddha nature, you not only risk complacency but you also entangle yourself in metaphysical thorn patches: If something with an awakened nature can suffer, what good is it? How could something innately awakened become defiled? If your original Buddha nature became deluded, what’s to prevent it from becoming deluded after it’s re-awakened?
@David said:> I still think to be empty of inherent existence is to be full of potential.
Full of potential for what? Further change presumably?
Well, the potential to be changed at least. Change is what things do, not what things are. Change is strictly a verb and fruition greatly depends on competing circumstance.
I think there is some truth in that. If things can be changed, inter-are with everything else, and are empty of inherent self-ness then it stands to reason that a thing has the potential to be many things, although perhaps not all.
The water drop can become part of a river, a lake, early morning mists rising from the lake, a cloud far above and later fall to earth again as a drop. It is empty of drop-ness, and has the potential to be many things, although it will never be a rock.
So is Buddha Nature the potential for enlightenment, or is it a sort of Buddha essence which we need to discover ( uncover? ). Is it a seed which grows with practice, or has it always been present fully grown?
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
According to Tibetan Buddhism, it's the latter. According to Theravada, I believe, there's no presence, it needs cultivation, rather like the lotus growing from the muddy pond....
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@federica said:
According to Tibetan Buddhism, it's the latter. According to Theravada, I believe, there's no presence, it needs cultivation, rather like the lotus growing from the muddy pond....
There is a division in TB too. The Gelug lineage and I think most of Sakya say it's a potential. Kagyu and Nyigma say it's already present and needs uncovering.
@SpinyNorman said:
So is Buddha Nature the potential for enlightenment, or is it a sort of Buddha essence which we need to discover ( uncover? ). Is it a seed which grows with practice, or has it always been present fully grown?
In my experience it has always been present 'fully grown'. However it would be more accurate to say, 'fully ungrown'. In fact the word fully is not quite accurate and even better perhaps to say, 'completely emptily present'. In a sense the seed of understanding can grow and awakening can happen but that is more like an unfolding or sense of 'ah ha'. https://www.openhandweb.org/what_does_enlightenment_feel_like
@lobster said:Tee Hee. So how do the qualities that come from Nibbana/Emptiness 'arise' or have their being?
It probably makes sense to say that Nirvana or the unconditioned has always been there, so practice is really about connecting with it, being less enamoured with the incessant activity of the aggregates. So in some schools there is an emphasis on meditative stillness.
Nirvana is not emptiness though. In the Heart Sutra the bodhisattva reaches Nirvana having seen the emptiness of the aggregates. So there is the sense of seeing through the aggregates because they are not as substantial as we assumed. I'm not sure which aggregate is doing the seeing though.
What's nirodha? Could it be a non-arising? Is it equivalent to emptiness ie. non arising of forms(sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch and mind objects)?
Therefore, in the Emptiness there are no Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness
No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object;
"Now from the remainderless fading and cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-and-form. From the cessation of name-and-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress and suffering."
translating nirodha as "cessation", although not entirely wrong, is nevertheless not entirely accurate. On the other hand, there is no other word which comes so close to the essential meaning as "cessation." However, we should understand what is meant by the term. In this context, the Dependent Origination cycle in its cessation mode might be better rendered as "being free of ignorance, there is freedom from volitional impulses ..." or "when ignorance is gone, volitional impulses are gone ..." or "when ignorance ceases to give fruit, volitional impulses cease to give fruit ..." or "when ignorance is no longer a problem, volitional impulses are no longer a problem."
Even in the forward mode, there are some problems with definitions. The meaning of many of the Pali terms are too broad to be translated into any single English words. For instance, avijja paccaya sankhara also means "When ignorance is like this, volitional impulses are like this; volitional impulses being this way, consciousness is like this; consciousness being this way, body and mind are like this; ..."
@lobster said:Tee Hee. So how do the qualities that come from Nibbana/Emptiness 'arise' or have their being?
It probably makes sense to say that Nirvana or the unconditioned has always been there, so practice is really about connecting with it, being less enamoured with the incessant activity of the aggregates. So in some schools there is an emphasis on meditative stillness.
Nirvana is not emptiness though. In the Heart Sutra the bodhisattva reaches Nirvana having seen the emptiness of the aggregates. So there is the sense of seeing through the aggregates because they are not as substantial as we assumed. I'm not sure which aggregate is doing the seeing though.
What's nirodha? Could it be a non-arising? Is it equivalent to emptiness ie. non arising of forms(sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch and mind objects)?
Therefore, in the Emptiness there are no Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness
No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object;
Emptiness is not non-arising. This passage from the Heart Sutra is just giving examples of phenomena that are empty, it is saying that everything listed doesn't have inherent existence, it doesn't exist from it's own side.
Sunyata is equivalent to anatta, not nirodha. Nirodha is more equivalent to Nirvana,
These linguistic nuances can be alluded to with difficulty in any language, including flower arranging and poetry. "Pick up flower, subtle smile" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon
If enlightenment was a food it would be chocolate mousse, with or without the mousse or even the chocolate ... ( here to help )
@lobster said:Tee Hee. So how do the qualities that come from Nibbana/Emptiness 'arise' or have their being?
It probably makes sense to say that Nirvana or the unconditioned has always been there, so practice is really about connecting with it, being less enamoured with the incessant activity of the aggregates. So in some schools there is an emphasis on meditative stillness.
Nirvana is not emptiness though. In the Heart Sutra the bodhisattva reaches Nirvana having seen the emptiness of the aggregates. So there is the sense of seeing through the aggregates because they are not as substantial as we assumed. I'm not sure which aggregate is doing the seeing though.
What's nirodha? Could it be a non-arising? Is it equivalent to emptiness ie. non arising of forms(sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch and mind objects)?
Therefore, in the Emptiness there are no Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness
No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object;
Emptiness is not non-arising. This passage from the Heart Sutra is just giving examples of phenomena that are empty, it is saying that everything listed doesn't have inherent existence, it doesn't exist from it's own side.
Sunyata is equivalent to anatta, not nirodha. Nirodha is more equivalent to Nirvana,
Sariputra, the characteristics of the
Emptiness of all Dharmas are Non-Arising, Non-Ceasing, Non-Defiled,
Non-Pure, Non-Increasing, Non-Decreasing.
Sariputra,
all things and phenomena are marked by emptiness;
they are neither appearing nor disappearing,
neither impure nor pure,
neither increasing nor decreasing.
@lobster said:Tee Hee. So how do the qualities that come from Nibbana/Emptiness 'arise' or have their being?
It probably makes sense to say that Nirvana or the unconditioned has always been there, so practice is really about connecting with it, being less enamoured with the incessant activity of the aggregates. So in some schools there is an emphasis on meditative stillness.
Nirvana is not emptiness though. In the Heart Sutra the bodhisattva reaches Nirvana having seen the emptiness of the aggregates. So there is the sense of seeing through the aggregates because they are not as substantial as we assumed. I'm not sure which aggregate is doing the seeing though.
What's nirodha? Could it be a non-arising? Is it equivalent to emptiness ie. non arising of forms(sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch and mind objects)?
Therefore, in the Emptiness there are no Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness
No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object;
Emptiness is not non-arising. This passage from the Heart Sutra is just giving examples of phenomena that are empty, it is saying that everything listed doesn't have inherent existence, it doesn't exist from it's own side.
Sunyata is equivalent to anatta, not nirodha. Nirodha is more equivalent to Nirvana,
Sariputra,
all things and phenomena are marked by emptiness;
they are neither appearing nor disappearing,
neither impure nor pure,
neither increasing nor decreasing.
This passage is saying there are no inherent existing "things" to have these characteristics. Phenomena are not inherently appearing because they don’t arise independent of other things. They are not inherently disappearing because phenomena that are not inherently produced cannot inherently cease. Everything in the Heart Sutra relates to lack of inherent existence, ie sunyata.
This is nothing to do with nirodha ( cessation ) in the suttas. You seem to be muddling up ideas from different traditions, trying to compare apples with oranges.
@lobster said:Tee Hee. So how do the qualities that come from Nibbana/Emptiness 'arise' or have their being?
It probably makes sense to say that Nirvana or the unconditioned has always been there, so practice is really about connecting with it, being less enamoured with the incessant activity of the aggregates. So in some schools there is an emphasis on meditative stillness.
Nirvana is not emptiness though. In the Heart Sutra the bodhisattva reaches Nirvana having seen the emptiness of the aggregates. So there is the sense of seeing through the aggregates because they are not as substantial as we assumed. I'm not sure which aggregate is doing the seeing though.
What's nirodha? Could it be a non-arising? Is it equivalent to emptiness ie. non arising of forms(sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch and mind objects)?
Therefore, in the Emptiness there are no Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness
No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object;
Emptiness is not non-arising. This passage from the Heart Sutra is just giving examples of phenomena that are empty, it is saying that everything listed doesn't have inherent existence, it doesn't exist from it's own side.
Sunyata is equivalent to anatta, not nirodha. Nirodha is more equivalent to Nirvana,
Sariputra,
all things and phenomena are marked by emptiness;
they are neither appearing nor disappearing,
neither impure nor pure,
neither increasing nor decreasing.
This passage is saying there are no inherent existing "things" to have these characteristics. Phenomena are not inherently appearing because they don’t arise independent of other things. They are not inherently disappearing because phenomena that are not inherently produced cannot inherently cease. Everything in the Heart Sutra relates to lack of inherent existence, ie sunyata.
This is nothing to do with nirodha ( cessation ) in the suttas. You seem to be muddling up ideas from different traditions, trying to compare apples with oranges.
Sariputra, the characteristics of the
Emptiness of all Dharmas are Non-Arising, Non-Ceasing, Non-Defiled,
Non-Pure, Non-Increasing, Non-Decreasing.
Therefore, in the Emptiness there are no Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object;
I don't know about you.
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object sounds very much like cessation or non-arising.
As we sustain our attention on the mind, we see that all those labels are the outer petals of the lotus. When they open, we know that there is more to this, that there’s a deeper reality which is certainly beyond words. If we can keep on sustaining our attention on this thing which we call “the mind”, “experience”, “the moment”, or whatever we wish to call it, without moving, the innermost petals start to manifest and then finally the last, the thousandth petal, the innermost-of-the-innermost, opens up and reveals what is called “the jewel in the heart of the lotus”. The beautiful jewel of Dhamma, which is emptiness — nothing there! This will not be what you expect in the heart of a lotus, but that’s what’s there — is the emptiness of all phenomenons. Once you see that, it gives you a great shock that wakes you from the deep slumber of illusion.
In the centre of all things is a great space of nothingness, of emptiness. All around are these fabrications (saïkhàras), and it’s only these fabrications which surround this empty core of nothingness.
@lobster said:Tee Hee. So how do the qualities that come from Nibbana/Emptiness 'arise' or have their being?
It probably makes sense to say that Nirvana or the unconditioned has always been there, so practice is really about connecting with it, being less enamoured with the incessant activity of the aggregates. So in some schools there is an emphasis on meditative stillness.
Nirvana is not emptiness though. In the Heart Sutra the bodhisattva reaches Nirvana having seen the emptiness of the aggregates. So there is the sense of seeing through the aggregates because they are not as substantial as we assumed. I'm not sure which aggregate is doing the seeing though.
What's nirodha? Could it be a non-arising? Is it equivalent to emptiness ie. non arising of forms(sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch and mind objects)?
Therefore, in the Emptiness there are no Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness
No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object;
Emptiness is not non-arising. This passage from the Heart Sutra is just giving examples of phenomena that are empty, it is saying that everything listed doesn't have inherent existence, it doesn't exist from it's own side.
Sunyata is equivalent to anatta, not nirodha. Nirodha is more equivalent to Nirvana,
Sariputra,
all things and phenomena are marked by emptiness;
they are neither appearing nor disappearing,
neither impure nor pure,
neither increasing nor decreasing.
This passage is saying there are no inherent existing "things" to have these characteristics. Phenomena are not inherently appearing because they don’t arise independent of other things. They are not inherently disappearing because phenomena that are not inherently produced cannot inherently cease. Everything in the Heart Sutra relates to lack of inherent existence, ie sunyata.
This is nothing to do with nirodha ( cessation ) in the suttas. You seem to be muddling up ideas from different traditions, trying to compare apples with oranges.
Therefore, in the Emptiness there are no Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object; http://path.homestead.com/heartsutra.html
This passage is simply saying that, like the aggregates, eye, ear, nose etc do not have inherent existence. It is not saying they don't exist at all, or that they cease to exist. Basically the Heart Sutra is a list of "things" which lack inherent ( independent ) existence - aggregates, sense bases, characteristic of "things", even the Noble Truths. If you don't understand this then you will not get what is being described.
Nothingness is not emptiness. Actually this sounds more descriptive of the unconditioned, aka Nibbana, though of course that is Theravada rather than Mahayana. "Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the unconditioned. What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.” https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.47
You are muddling up Mahayana teachings on sunyata with Thai Forest interpretations of Theravada. This is trying to compare apples with oranges and will inevitably lead to confusion.
Therefore, in the Emptiness there are no Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness
No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object; http://path.homestead.com/heartsutra.html
This passage is simply saying that, like the aggregates, eye, ear, nose etc do not have inherent existence. It is not saying they don't exist at all, or that they cease to exist. Basically the Heart Sutra is a list of "things" which lack inherent ( independent ) existence - aggregates, sense bases, characteristic of "things", even the Noble Truths. If you don't understand this then you will not get what is being described.
Yes, they are all mind made fabrications or sankharas. All sankharas arise and cease(nirodha) because they depend on conditions. The passage is describing the actual experience of the unconditioned (no form/sound etc).
Mountains, rivers, and the great earth are only manifestations of consciousness. Mountains, rivers, and the great earth are all form-dharmas which appear because of the consciousness in our minds which makes distinctions. If we can transform the consciousness which makes distinctions, then all the mountains and rivers and the great earth will not exist.
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the **cessation **of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
Therefore, in the Emptiness there are no Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness
No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object; http://path.homestead.com/heartsutra.html
This passage is simply saying that, like the aggregates, eye, ear, nose etc do not have inherent existence. It is not saying they don't exist at all, or that they cease to exist. Basically the Heart Sutra is a list of "things" which lack inherent ( independent ) existence - aggregates, sense bases, characteristic of "things", even the Noble Truths. If you don't understand this then you will not get what is being described.
Yes, they are all mind made fabrications or sankharas. All sankharas arise and cease(nirodha) because they depend on conditions. The passage is describing the actual experience of the unconditioned (no form/sound etc).
No, it really isn't, it is just listing things which lack inherent existence. You are trying to impose a Thai Forest view onto a Mahayana text, and that is not going to work. I would suggest doing some study on the Heart Sutra, you might find this new translation of the Heart Sutra helpful: http://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the **cessation **of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html
That sutta describes dependent origination as the middle way between the extremes of existence and non-existence. Dependent origination is based on the principle of conditionality, as is sunyata, as indeed is anatta.
As you'll know, there isn't a consensus in Theravada about how dependent origination should be interpreted, or about what "cessation" entails. But in any case this is not what the Heart Sutra is discussing. As should be clear from the first verse, the Heart Sutra is about insight: "The Bodhisattva of Compassion,
When he meditated deeply,
Saw the emptiness of all five skandhas
And sundered the bonds that caused him suffering."
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@pegembara, as @SpinyNorman has pointed out, you're muddling Theravada View (accesstoInsight) with a Mahayana View (Heart Sutra). Pick one. Don't combine the two, because you are compounding your own confusion. And yes, having tried to follow the discussion as best I could, you do seem to be condensing the two and coming up with your own View, which is muddled...
No, it really isn't, it is just listing things which lack inherent existence. You are trying to impose a Thai Forest view onto a Mahayana text, and that is not going to work. I would suggest doing some study on the Heart Sutra, you might find this new translation of the Heart Sutra helpful: http://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/
Pray tell how is this different from what the sutta says. It just says all conditioned things (sankharas) are not "self" ie. anatta. Both point to the same insight of things as they are: anicca, dukkha and anatta.
Granted the Heart Sutra may not have been the words of the Buddha but whoever wrote it had essentially penetrated to the truth of "existence".
“Just as the great ocean has one taste, the taste of salt, so also this teaching and discipline has one taste, the taste of liberation.” The Buddha
Avalokiteshvara
while practicing deeply with the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore,
suddenly discovered that
all of the five Skandhas are equally empty,
“That is why in Emptiness,
Body, Feelings, Perceptions,
Mental Formations and Consciousness
are not separate self entities.
The Eighteen Realms of Phenomena
which are the six Sense Organs,
the six Sense Objects,
and the six Consciousnesses
are also not separate self entities.
The Twelve Links of Interdependent Arising
and their Extinction
are also not separate self entities.
Ill-being, the Causes of Ill-being,
the End of Ill-being, the Path,
insight and attainment,
are also not separate self entities.
“All Buddhas in the past, present and future
by practicing
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore
are all capable of attaining
Authentic and Perfect Enlightenment.
"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'
"Bhikkhus, feeling is not-self...
"Bhikkhus, perception is not-self...
"Bhikkhus, determinations are not-self...
"Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self.
"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.
"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"
No, it really isn't, it is just listing things which lack inherent existence. You are trying to impose a Thai Forest view onto a Mahayana text, and that is not going to work. I would suggest doing some study on the Heart Sutra, you might find this new translation of the Heart Sutra helpful: http://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/
Pray tell how is this different from what the sutta says. It just says all conditioned things (sankharas) are not "self" ie. anatta. Both point to the same insight of things as they are: anicca, dukkha and anatta.
See the Anattalakkhana Sutta for comparison.
The closest equivalent to the Heart Sutra is the Phena Sutta:
"Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html
The essential point is that the Heart Sutra is about insight into emptiness, it is not about nirodha or the unconditioned, these are Theravada rather than Mahayana teachings.
The Heart Sutra is basically a list of phenomena which lack inherent existence or self-hood. Sunyata is of course equivalent to anatta, but it is not equivalent to nirodha or the unconditioned.
The insight into anatta/sunyata or "emptiness" (a word that confuses) is the insight which liberates. They are both the same and ultimately leads to the same place.
These words of the Buddha enjoining us to see the world as being empty show that it is the highest thing. Anyone who wants to be without problems concerning Dukkha and death, should look on the world, i.e. on all things, as they truly are, namely as empty, neither "I" nor "mine". The statements of the Buddha that follow on from this show the benefits: 'Nibbana paranam sunnam' and 'Nibbanam paramam sukham', which translate as 'Nibbana is the supreme emptiness' and 'Nibbana is the supreme happiness'. You must understand that Nibbana, the remainderless extinction of Dukkha, means the same as supreme emptiness, and that it is possible to know and realize an emptiness that is not supreme, an emptiness that is in some way deficient or false. The truth-discerning awareness must be so impeccably clear that one has not the slightest feeling of "self" or "belonging to a self" for it to be called paramam sunnam, supreme emptiness. Supreme emptiness is Nibbana because it completely extinguishes the things that are on fire, the stream or whirlpool of flowing and changing phenomena. Thus the supreme emptiness and the supreme extinction are one and the same thing."
Always mindful, Mogharaja,
regard the world as
empty,
having removed any view
in terms of self.
This way
one is above and beyond death.
One who regards the world
in this way
isn't seen by Death's King.
@pegembara said:
The insight into anatta/sunyata or "emptiness" (a word that confuses) is the insight which liberates. They are both the same and ultimately leads to the same place.
Sure, it is insight into emptiness which liberates. But according to the Heart Sutra, the insight into emptiness is not identical with Nirvana, rather it is the means to realise it.
The statements of the Buddha that follow on from this show the benefits: 'Nibbana paranam sunnam' and 'Nibbanam paramam sukham', which translate as 'Nibbana is the supreme emptiness' and 'Nibbana is the supreme happiness'. You must understand that Nibbana, the remainderless extinction of Dukkha, means the same as supreme emptiness**." http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha196.htm
This is a rather idiosyncratic Thai Forest view of sunna, and I would be cautious about comparing this to Mahayana teachings on sunyata. I don't really get Buddhadasa's take on "Nibbana paranam sunnam" here, do you know which sutta(s) this phrase occurs in? By definition emptiness is the nature of the conditioned, but I don't see how can be the nature of the unconditioned ( Nibbana ).
Sāriputta, your faculties are clear. The color of your skin is pure and bright. What abiding do you often abide in now, Sāriputta?
Now, venerable sir, I often abide in voidness (**suññāta **vihara).
Good, good, Sāriputta! Now, indeed, you often abide in the abiding of a great man. For this is the abiding of a great man, namely, voidness.
Piṇḍapātapārisuddhi Sutta
"And what is the emptiness awareness-release? There is the case where a monk, having gone into the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or into an empty dwelling, considers this: 'This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.'[5] This is called the emptiness awareness-release.
The unprovoked liberation of mind is declared the foremost. And this unprovoked liberation of mind is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion.
MN 43
For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the effluent of sensuality... the effluent of becoming... the effluent of ignorance, are not present. He discerns that 'This mode of perception is **empty **of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance.'
Cula-suññata Sutta: The Lesser Discourse on Emptiness
"If we enquire which of the Buddha's utterances dealing with this matter can be taken as authoritative statements we will find in many places the Buddha taught us to know how to look on the world as being empty, as in the phrase "Sunnato lokam avekkhassu mogharaja sada sato" which means "You should look on the world as being empty". If you can be always aware of the emptiness of the world, death will not find you.
These words of the Buddha enjoining us to see the world as being empty show that it is the highest thing. Anyone who wants to be without problems concerning Dukkha and death, should look on the world, i.e. on all things, as they truly are, namely as empty, neither "I" nor "mine".
The statements of the Buddha that follow on from this show the benefits: 'Nibbana paranam sunnam' and 'Nibbanam paramam sukham', which translate as 'Nibbana is the supreme emptiness' and 'Nibbana is the supreme happiness'.
You must understand that Nibbana, the remainderless extinction of Dukkha, means the same as supreme emptiness, and that it is possible to know and realize an emptiness that is not supreme, an emptiness that is in some way deficient or false. The truth-discerning awareness must be so impeccably clear that one has not the slightest feeling of "self" or "belonging to a self" for it to be called paramam sunnam, supreme emptiness.
Supreme emptiness is Nibbana because it completely extinguishes the things that are on fire, the stream or whirlpool of flowing and changing phenomena. Thus the supreme emptiness and the supreme extinction are one and the same thing."
He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the effluent of sensuality... the effluent of becoming... the effluent of ignorance, are not present. He discerns that 'This mode of perception is **empty **of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance.'
Cula-suññata Sutta: The Lesser Discourse on Emptiness
Here "emptiness" is being used in the sense of stuff being absent, and in that sense Nibbana is "empty" of craving, aversion and delusion. This is a completely different meaning to sunyata emptiness, which is lack of inherent existence.
You are confusing things greatly by muddling up Theravada and Mahayana teachings, and by trying to impose a Thai Forest view on a Mahayana topic.
Sure, it is insight into emptiness which liberates. But according to the Heart Sutra, the insight into emptiness is not identical with Nirvana, rather it is the means to realise it.
Always mindful, Mogharaja,
regard the world as
empty,
having removed any view
in terms of self.
This way
one is above and beyond death.
One who regards the world
in this way
isn't seen by Death's King.
“All Buddhas in the past, present and future
by practicing
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore
are all capable of attaining
Authentic and Perfect Enlightenment.
[The Buddha:] "Yes, Ananda, you heard that correctly, learned it correctly, attended to it correctly, remembered it correctly. Now, as well as before, I remain fully in a dwelling of emptiness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html
I have to disagree. In any case, the point is moot and there is no need to split hairs over this.
Comments
Tee Hee. So how do the qualities that come from Nibbana/Emptiness 'arise' or have their being? Was the Buddhas compassion and wisdom evidence of spiritual impediments before heading off for para-nirvana?
The mind boggles, not that we have a real mind or anything ...
It probably makes sense to say that Nirvana or the unconditioned has always been there, so practice is really about connecting with it, being less enamoured with the incessant activity of the aggregates. So in some schools there is an emphasis on meditative stillness.
Nirvana is not emptiness though. In the Heart Sutra the bodhisattva reaches Nirvana having seen the emptiness of the aggregates. So there is the sense of seeing through the aggregates because they are not as substantial as we assumed. I'm not sure which aggregate is doing the seeing though.
("Heart" because
, not "heart" because 'awesome'....) 
New thread awaited when you're ready....
This is a good question and one that I really don't know, the topic has come up tangentially recently in one of my Dharma classes. Some say the emptiness of a Buddha's mind is different than the emptiness of an unenlightened mind and some say it is the same, that the qualities of a Buddha are equally empty. I tend to favor the latter but like I said I really don't know what they're talking about.
Even if there is some aspect of the mind that continues after death doesn't mean it has to be inherently existing and real, it is perfectly capable of being dependently originated.
Looking at the Heart Sutra it seems the Bodhisattva uses prajna wisdom to see the emptiness of the aggregates, and reaches clearest Nirvana. The implication seems to be that Nirvana is not itself empty.
http://www.fwbo-news.org/resources/heart_sutra.pdf
Well, the potential to be changed at least. Change is what things do, not what things are. Change is strictly a verb and fruition greatly depends on competing circumstance.
Sorry, but I have no idea what this means. Maybe you could relate what you are saying to an actual Buddhist teaching like the Heart Sutra?
We're on a Buddhist discussion forum, so generally it would be good if people could support their opinions with Buddhist texts and teachings, rather than just repeating personal views.
I have to say, you DO have a point.....
Like I said there is disagreement and I don't understand it so
Emptiness is really more about how and what things are more than what they do. What they do is more of a consequence of how they are.
For example things change because they aren't solid and can take on properties from elsewhere, they aren't independent entities that simply morph on their own or hold any consistent status. There isn't some solid thing out there that changes from a seed to a sprout, the only difference being what we label it or its current configuration. A seed and a sprout aren't the same thing only on a different point in a continuum, they are made up of different non-seed/sprout things.
Everything is empty of agreements it seems.
Wot no Buddha Nature?
https://mettarefuge.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/freedom-from-buddha-nature/
> If you assume a Buddha nature, you not only risk complacency but you also entangle yourself in metaphysical thorn patches: If something with an awakened nature can suffer, what good is it? How could something innately awakened become defiled? If your original Buddha nature became deluded, what’s to prevent it from becoming deluded after it’s re-awakened?
Tsk, tsk ... 'I can not believe it is Buddha'
...Honestly, @lobster... where you dig these up from....
I think there is some truth in that. If things can be changed, inter-are with everything else, and are empty of inherent self-ness then it stands to reason that a thing has the potential to be many things, although perhaps not all.
The water drop can become part of a river, a lake, early morning mists rising from the lake, a cloud far above and later fall to earth again as a drop. It is empty of drop-ness, and has the potential to be many things, although it will never be a rock.
So is Buddha Nature the potential for enlightenment, or is it a sort of Buddha essence which we need to discover ( uncover? ). Is it a seed which grows with practice, or has it always been present fully grown?
According to Tibetan Buddhism, it's the latter. According to Theravada, I believe, there's no presence, it needs cultivation, rather like the lotus growing from the muddy pond....
There is a division in TB too. The Gelug lineage and I think most of Sakya say it's a potential. Kagyu and Nyigma say it's already present and needs uncovering.
In my experience it has always been present 'fully grown'. However it would be more accurate to say, 'fully ungrown'. In fact the word fully is not quite accurate and even better perhaps to say, 'completely emptily present'. In a sense the seed of understanding can grow and awakening can happen but that is more like an unfolding or sense of 'ah ha'.
https://www.openhandweb.org/what_does_enlightenment_feel_like
What's nirodha? Could it be a non-arising? Is it equivalent to emptiness ie. non arising of forms(sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch and mind objects)?
Therefore, in the Emptiness there are no Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness
No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object;
translating nirodha as "cessation", although not entirely wrong, is nevertheless not entirely accurate. On the other hand, there is no other word which comes so close to the essential meaning as "cessation." However, we should understand what is meant by the term. In this context, the Dependent Origination cycle in its cessation mode might be better rendered as "being free of ignorance, there is freedom from volitional impulses ..." or "when ignorance is gone, volitional impulses are gone ..." or "when ignorance ceases to give fruit, volitional impulses cease to give fruit ..." or "when ignorance is no longer a problem, volitional impulses are no longer a problem."
Even in the forward mode, there are some problems with definitions. The meaning of many of the Pali terms are too broad to be translated into any single English words. For instance, avijja paccaya sankhara also means "When ignorance is like this, volitional impulses are like this; volitional impulses being this way, consciousness is like this; consciousness being this way, body and mind are like this; ..."
http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Pa...on.htm#problem
Emptiness is not non-arising. This passage from the Heart Sutra is just giving examples of phenomena that are empty, it is saying that everything listed doesn't have inherent existence, it doesn't exist from it's own side.
Sunyata is equivalent to anatta, not nirodha. Nirodha is more equivalent to Nirvana,
Very insightful post @pegembara
These linguistic nuances can be alluded to with difficulty in any language, including flower arranging and poetry.
"Pick up flower, subtle smile"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon
If enlightenment was a food it would be chocolate mousse, with or without the mousse or even the chocolate ... ( here to help
)
Sariputra, the characteristics of the
Emptiness of all Dharmas are
Non-Arising, Non-Ceasing, Non-Defiled,
Non-Pure, Non-Increasing, Non-Decreasing.
http://path.homestead.com/heartsutra.html
Sariputra,
all things and phenomena are marked by emptiness;
they are neither appearing nor disappearing,
neither impure nor pure,
neither increasing nor decreasing.
http://www.cttbusa.org/heartsutra/heartsutra.htm
Sariputra,
This passage is saying there are no inherent existing "things" to have these characteristics. Phenomena are not inherently appearing because they don’t arise independent of other things. They are not inherently disappearing because phenomena that are not inherently produced cannot inherently cease. Everything in the Heart Sutra relates to lack of inherent existence, ie sunyata.
This is nothing to do with nirodha ( cessation ) in the suttas. You seem to be muddling up ideas from different traditions, trying to compare apples with oranges.
Sariputra, the characteristics of the
Emptiness of all Dharmas are
Non-Arising, Non-Ceasing, Non-Defiled,
Non-Pure, Non-Increasing, Non-Decreasing.
Therefore, in the Emptiness there are no Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness
No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object;
http://path.homestead.com/heartsutra.html
I don't know about you.
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object sounds very much like cessation or non-arising.
This passage is simply saying that, like the aggregates, eye, ear, nose etc do not have inherent existence. It is not saying they don't exist at all, or that they cease to exist. Basically the Heart Sutra is a list of "things" which lack inherent ( independent ) existence - aggregates, sense bases, characteristic of "things", even the Noble Truths. If you don't understand this then you will not get what is being described.
Nothingness is not emptiness. Actually this sounds more descriptive of the unconditioned, aka Nibbana, though of course that is Theravada rather than Mahayana.
"Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the unconditioned. What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.47
You are muddling up Mahayana teachings on sunyata with Thai Forest interpretations of Theravada. This is trying to compare apples with oranges and will inevitably lead to confusion.
Yes, they are all mind made fabrications or sankharas. All sankharas arise and cease(nirodha) because they depend on conditions. The passage is describing the actual experience of the unconditioned (no form/sound etc).
Mountains, rivers, and the great earth are only manifestations of consciousness. Mountains, rivers, and the great earth are all form-dharmas which appear because of the consciousness in our minds which makes distinctions. If we can transform the consciousness which makes distinctions, then all the mountains and rivers and the great earth will not exist.
http://www.cttbusa.org/heartsutra/hs10.htm
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the **cessation **of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html
No, it really isn't, it is just listing things which lack inherent existence. You are trying to impose a Thai Forest view onto a Mahayana text, and that is not going to work. I would suggest doing some study on the Heart Sutra, you might find this new translation of the Heart Sutra helpful: http://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/
That sutta describes dependent origination as the middle way between the extremes of existence and non-existence. Dependent origination is based on the principle of conditionality, as is sunyata, as indeed is anatta.
As you'll know, there isn't a consensus in Theravada about how dependent origination should be interpreted, or about what "cessation" entails. But in any case this is not what the Heart Sutra is discussing. As should be clear from the first verse, the Heart Sutra is about insight:
"The Bodhisattva of Compassion,
When he meditated deeply,
Saw the emptiness of all five skandhas
And sundered the bonds that caused him suffering."
@pegembara, as @SpinyNorman has pointed out, you're muddling Theravada View (accesstoInsight) with a Mahayana View (Heart Sutra). Pick one. Don't combine the two, because you are compounding your own confusion. And yes, having tried to follow the discussion as best I could, you do seem to be condensing the two and coming up with your own View, which is muddled...
Pray tell how is this different from what the sutta says. It just says all conditioned things (sankharas) are not "self" ie. anatta. Both point to the same insight of things as they are: anicca, dukkha and anatta.
Granted the Heart Sutra may not have been the words of the Buddha but whoever wrote it had essentially penetrated to the truth of "existence".
Avalokiteshvara
while practicing deeply with
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore,
suddenly discovered that
all of the five Skandhas are equally empty,
“That is why in Emptiness,
Body, Feelings, Perceptions,
Mental Formations and Consciousness
are not separate self entities.
The Eighteen Realms of Phenomena
which are the six Sense Organs,
the six Sense Objects,
and the six Consciousnesses
are also not separate self entities.
The Twelve Links of Interdependent Arising
and their Extinction
are also not separate self entities.
Ill-being, the Causes of Ill-being,
the End of Ill-being, the Path,
insight and attainment,
are also not separate self entities.
“All Buddhas in the past, present and future
by practicing
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore
are all capable of attaining
Authentic and Perfect Enlightenment.
http://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/
See the Anattalakkhana Sutta for comparison.
"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'
"Bhikkhus, feeling is not-self...
"Bhikkhus, perception is not-self...
"Bhikkhus, determinations are not-self...
"Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self.
"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.
"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.nymo.html
The closest equivalent to the Heart Sutra is the Phena Sutta:
"Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html
The essential point is that the Heart Sutra is about insight into emptiness, it is not about nirodha or the unconditioned, these are Theravada rather than Mahayana teachings.
The Heart Sutra is basically a list of phenomena which lack inherent existence or self-hood. Sunyata is of course equivalent to anatta, but it is not equivalent to nirodha or the unconditioned.
The insight into anatta/sunyata or "emptiness" (a word that confuses) is the insight which liberates. They are both the same and ultimately leads to the same place.
These words of the Buddha enjoining us to see the world as being empty show that it is the highest thing. Anyone who wants to be without problems concerning Dukkha and death, should look on the world, i.e. on all things, as they truly are, namely as empty, neither "I" nor "mine". The statements of the Buddha that follow on from this show the benefits: 'Nibbana paranam sunnam' and 'Nibbanam paramam sukham', which translate as 'Nibbana is the supreme emptiness' and 'Nibbana is the supreme happiness'. You must understand that Nibbana, the remainderless extinction of Dukkha, means the same as supreme emptiness, and that it is possible to know and realize an emptiness that is not supreme, an emptiness that is in some way deficient or false. The truth-discerning awareness must be so impeccably clear that one has not the slightest feeling of "self" or "belonging to a self" for it to be called paramam sunnam, supreme emptiness. Supreme emptiness is Nibbana because it completely extinguishes the things that are on fire, the stream or whirlpool of flowing and changing phenomena. Thus the supreme emptiness and the supreme extinction are one and the same thing."
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha196.htm
Always mindful, Mogharaja,
regard the world as
empty,
having removed any view
in terms of self.
This way
one is above and beyond death.
One who regards the world
in this way
isn't seen by Death's King.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.5.15.than.html
With metta
Sure, it is insight into emptiness which liberates. But according to the Heart Sutra, the insight into emptiness is not identical with Nirvana, rather it is the means to realise it.
This is a rather idiosyncratic Thai Forest view of sunna, and I would be cautious about comparing this to Mahayana teachings on sunyata. I don't really get Buddhadasa's take on "Nibbana paranam sunnam" here, do you know which sutta(s) this phrase occurs in? By definition emptiness is the nature of the conditioned, but I don't see how can be the nature of the unconditioned ( Nibbana ).
"And what is the emptiness awareness-release? There is the case where a monk, having gone into the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or into an empty dwelling, considers this: 'This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.'[5] This is called the emptiness awareness-release.
akuppā tāsaṃ cetovimutti aggamakkhāyati. Sā kho panākuppā cetovimutti **suññā **rāgena, **suññā **dosena, **suññā **mohena.
The unprovoked liberation of mind is declared the foremost. And this unprovoked liberation of mind is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion.
MN 43
"If we enquire which of the Buddha's utterances dealing with this matter can be taken as authoritative statements we will find in many places the Buddha taught us to know how to look on the world as being empty, as in the phrase "Sunnato lokam avekkhassu mogharaja sada sato" which means "You should look on the world as being empty". If you can be always aware of the emptiness of the world, death will not find you.
These words of the Buddha enjoining us to see the world as being empty show that it is the highest thing. Anyone who wants to be without problems concerning Dukkha and death, should look on the world, i.e. on all things, as they truly are, namely as empty, neither "I" nor "mine".
The statements of the Buddha that follow on from this show the benefits: 'Nibbana paranam sunnam' and 'Nibbanam paramam sukham', which translate as 'Nibbana is the supreme emptiness' and 'Nibbana is the supreme happiness'.
You must understand that Nibbana, the remainderless extinction of Dukkha, means the same as supreme emptiness, and that it is possible to know and realize an emptiness that is not supreme, an emptiness that is in some way deficient or false. The truth-discerning awareness must be so impeccably clear that one has not the slightest feeling of "self" or "belonging to a self" for it to be called paramam sunnam, supreme emptiness.
Supreme emptiness is Nibbana because it completely extinguishes the things that are on fire, the stream or whirlpool of flowing and changing phenomena. Thus the supreme emptiness and the supreme extinction are one and the same thing."
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha196.htm
Here "emptiness" is being used in the sense of stuff being absent, and in that sense Nibbana is "empty" of craving, aversion and delusion. This is a completely different meaning to sunyata emptiness, which is lack of inherent existence.
You are confusing things greatly by muddling up Theravada and Mahayana teachings, and by trying to impose a Thai Forest view on a Mahayana topic.
Sure, it is insight into emptiness which liberates. But according to the Heart Sutra, the insight into emptiness is not identical with Nirvana, rather it is the means to realise it.
“All Buddhas in the past, present and future
by practicing
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore
are all capable of attaining
Authentic and Perfect Enlightenment.
http://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/
I have to disagree. In any case, the point is moot and there is no need to split hairs over this.
when i tried to see discussions of 'elements' this thread came across and i found and wanted to bring it up
what i want was something, what i got is another thing
anyway, what i found is not bad
elements can be wait