Delusion and Ignorance

upekka

is there any difference?
or
both are same?

namarupa

There is a difference in the name, of course I am sure you already know this. One is believing in something false (micca dhitti), and the other is lack of knowledge (avijja).

I think they are similar because they can both be considered defilement, but if you want to be more specific, then they do have some differences.

Dakini

I would say that delusion is a subset of ignorance. Not all ignorance involves delusion. But I could be wrong.

pegembara

I think not.

There is greed/desire, hatred/aversion and delusion.

From ignorance(avijja) condition ......leading to craving. Greed and hatred are rooted in craving.

Lionduck

Pardon me, are you talking philosophically or the just completed US election?
Just curious.

lobster

The knowledgeable can be delusional, the ignorant (in the Buddhist sense) always are.

For example if our knowledge is not tempered with wisdom and compassion, then it can lead to personal, social and wider ripples of delusion ...

If we are ignorant and know this, we have a hope of fixing the situation. I start each day from beginner/ignorant/empty mind. I make conscious efforts to avoid delusions such as 'Trump is important', 'my dukkha is worsest', 'somebody else must save us' etc.

I know I make a difference. Small difference but I am only a lowly cructacean. I will have breakfast, wash my bowl stick my plate in the dishwasher and be kind to all those around me.

Iz plan!

David

I'd say that delusion is ignorance with a twist of conjecture.

We can be ignorant and not add beliefs into the mix.

When we are delusional we do not know we are ignorant.

Buddhadragon

In "The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism," I found that both Ignorance (avidya) and Delusion (moha) are synonymous, but when they are distinguished, moha may be more a generic foolishness, whereas avidya is an obstinate misunderstanding about the nature of reality.

Nirvana

oops

David

I find it odd that translating words is so difficult. Ignorance is a lack of knowing. How that translates into a stubborn misunderstanding is beyond me.

Brutal.

Buddhadragon

@David said:
I find it odd that translating words is so difficult. Ignorance is a lack of knowing. How that translates into a stubborn misunderstanding is beyond me.

I was inclined to think the same, David.
In some Buddhist texts, ignorance is lack of knowledge, not knowing all the facts.
For others, ignorance is rather the big umbrella defilement that holds greed, aversion and delusion in place.
With wisdom (as in "seeing," rather than "knowing") as its opposite.
Through Ignorance we come up with deluded constructs that prevent us from seeing the world as it is (impermanent, unsatisfactory, without self) and propel us to indulge in the other defilements.

lobster

^^. 'Ignorance' is used in Buddhism in a slightly different way. Many words do not translate exactly from older texts.

I would also suggest that knowing ignorance or wise ignoring may come across as naivety or innocence. Be ignorant of ignorance. In other words do not acknowledge faults in others only yourself (unless morbidly critical of course).

If we have a psychological tendency to self blame (different to the blameworthy path of Sufism) we find a wise course of action - ignoring ...

I think it was the Temple of Apollo (prototype for Manjusri) that suggested: 'Know Thyself' ...

person

@David said:
I find it odd that translating words is so difficult. Ignorance is a lack of knowing. How that translates into a stubborn misunderstanding is beyond me.

Brutal.

Maybe it comes down to definition, which itself could be ideologically driven. In a religious context a mistaken (ignorance) ideology can be clung to, preventing one from seeing the truth.

In ancient India there were many differing belief systems and debate between them was common. Defining ignorance as stubborn misunderstanding could be a not so subtle way of demeaning and dismissing the other side.

DairyLama

"Monks, there are these four perversions of perception, perversions of mind, perversions of view. Which four? 'Constant' with regard to the inconstant is a perversion of perception, a perversion of mind, a perversion of view. 'Pleasant' with regard to the stressful... 'Self' with regard to not-self... 'Attractive' with regard to the unattractive is a perversion of perception, a perversion of mind, a perversion of view. These are the four perversions of perception, perversions of mind, perversions of view."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.049.than.html

upekka

thanks for all the responses

so

at the end analysis:

'Delusion' 'and' 'Ignorance' are perceptions

all the letters on this post are perceptions for anyone who see this post and who know English

all the letters on this post are 'perceptions on perceptions' created by the writer because of his/her ignorance

knowing one's own ignorance brings 'whatever it is'

thanks for everyone for the help given

Jeroen

Well, delusion is an incorrect perception, while ignorance can be a failure to perceive at all. Identifying an area of ignorance is finding a part of part of one's perception where one does not have the required concepts to categorise or make sense of what it is that one perceives. So in a way identifying ignorance is about spotting nonsense or the lack of depth in one's perceptions or conceptual thinking. Often such things are only clear in comparison with other areas, where one has cleared up the ignorance and replaced it with a pattern of perception that makes sense.

Tiddlywinds

@DhammaDragon said:
In "The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism," I found that both Ignorance (avidya) and Delusion (moha) are synonymous, but when they are distinguished, moha may be more a generic foolishness, whereas avidya is an obstinate misunderstanding about the nature of reality.

This is very helpful - thanks! I always thought the 2 words were used interchangeably in the same way greed/craving/desire and anger/hatred are often conflated.

I tend to take the teachings as a trichotomy (is there such a word?) (Moderator response: yes!) of positive, negative, neutral.

For this reason, I invariably read delusion/ignorance/indifference to be equivalent to neutral in the original teachings but the chosen word fits the context of the text.

Buddhadragon

@Tiddlywinds said:

@DhammaDragon said:
This is very helpful - thanks! I always thought the 2 words were used interchangeably in the same way greed/craving/desire and anger/hatred are often conflated.

I was rather surprised myself.
As a matter of fact, I would have defined "Ignorance" for "Delusion" and viceversa, had I not looked them up on the dictionary...

DairyLama

@Kerome said:
Well, delusion is an incorrect perception, while ignorance can be a failure to perceive at all. Identifying an area of ignorance is finding a part of part of one's perception where one does not have the required concepts to categorise or make sense of what it is that one perceives. So in a way identifying ignorance is about spotting nonsense or the lack of depth in one's perceptions or conceptual thinking. Often such things are only clear in comparison with other areas, where one has cleared up the ignorance and replaced it with a pattern of perception that makes sense.

In the suttas it is specifically ignorance about the Four Noble Truths.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca2/avijja.html

smarino

I am ignorant of any difference between them, but that could just be a delusion.